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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => R/E/P Saloon => Topic started by: lucey on November 03, 2004, 02:04:41 AM

Title: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 03, 2004, 02:04:41 AM
I'll understand if you kill this George, but I need to tell what has happened in Ohio, and in America.  And what this means for everyone.


HOW OHIO WAS WON ... AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WORLD              


"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.

And in this most historic election, both for 4 more years of Bush Inc. and for a 20 year reign of Christian-based Supreme Court rulings, "values" and more specifically the alignment of our government with Christianity has won it for Bush in Ohio and the middle of the country generally.

In some of the counties in Ohio that have lost the MOST Jobs Bush won. Why? "Values"

In the capital Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton, Youngstown and Akron ... all the largest Cities (except Cincinnati which is almost fascist it's so far Right) Kerry was the easy winner.

But in the more rural counties, Bush campaigned hard, and he won more votes in 2004 than in 2000. People wondered what Rove was doing there, preaching to the choir, and now it's clear. Bush was preaching to the choir .. and they found their messiah.


To be sure to get them to the polls in large numbers, the Republican Governor (an idiot descendant of President Taft from Cincinnati) got a Constitutional Amendment on the Ballot to ban gay marriage and all civil unions ( a real win fall for corporations looking to save money and a real hot button for the Christians) ... that deft ploy drove the conservative base out in larger numbers than 2000.

The national discussion about an Amendment was a ploy to make it a state's issue. Rove is an evil genius.

On the other hand they hit their strengths with the bus tours in rural areas. They also kept Kerry supporters out of these rallies. This happened on many occasions in Ohio and is well documented. People in Kerry T- shirts were asked to leave. Citizens were not allowed to listen to their President speak about his aims for the future.

What kind of leader is it that says you are with me or against me? What kind of President turns away his own citizens?



So we have the new America, unfolding right here. Values means Christianity, and the economy, health care, Iraq, terrorism ... these are way down the charts. God is more important than these petty things, of course.

Our Democracy is in serious trouble and the rest of the world needs to be prepared for the "values" attack that is about to spread further over the planet. You really need to prepare.

The rule of values, and one religion's values, this was not the intent of America and is a clear failure of America, and of Democracy. Majority domination was not the aim. Tolerance, fairness, justice and the protection of the minority, not the marginalization of the minority ... this was the aim.

We have a President who divides based on his own global test ...  faith.   A man whose idea of tolerance is "see it OUR way and I will include you in the spoils of power."    This is not democracy. This is the beginning of the end of America.

Freedom of religion does not mean the freedom to dominate with your religion. That's not democracy, that's the end of America.

In the world domination plan of Karl Rove, any authentic criticism of Bush was turned and fired at Kerry ... and so the masses say. "Both sides are the same!"   This is a masterful manipulation and it has lead us to doubt the existence of true facts in politics. To have no truth is to have no discussion. To have no discussion is to have no democracy, only the rule of faith and fear and mob rule.

Many college educated and poorly educated Christians alike, along with President Bush feel calmly sure they are endowed with a righteous fix for this world ... and ironically they feel at the same time they are fixing us with their superior values that the majority of the world will be destroyed at the Rapture, with the second coming in 3000 AD or thereabouts as predicted in the Bible.

I'm sorry Ohio let you down, but who can argue with faith?   This election was all about one topic ... faith ... as is this country now.

Policy issues and character are all a smoke screen for "values".    A born again is good enough for them ... certainly better than a tolerant Catholic.    An empire builder is fine, as long as it's a Christian Empire.




Tolerance is flip flopping after all ... it is to disagree with and yet accept... we can't have that!

Befriend or condemn!


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 03, 2004, 09:46:18 AM
lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:04

I'll understand if you kill this George, but I need to tell what has happened in Ohio, and in America.  And what this means for everyone.


HOW OHIO WAS WON ... AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WORLD              


"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.

And in this most historic election, both for 4 more years of Bush Inc. and for a 20 year reign of Christian-based Supreme Court rulings, "values" and more specifically the alignment of our government with Christianity has won it for Bush in Ohio and the middle of the country generally.

In some of the counties in Ohio that have lost the MOST Jobs Bush won. Why? "Values"

In the capital Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton, Youngstown and Akron ... all the largest Cities (except Cincinnati which is almost fascist it's so far Right) Kerry was the easy winner.

But in the more rural counties, Bush campaigned hard, and he won more votes in 2004 than in 2000. People wondered what Rove was doing there, preaching to the choir, and now it's clear. Bush was preaching to the choir .. and they found their messiah.


To be sure to get them to the polls in large numbers, the Republican Governor (an idiot descendant of President Taft from Cincinnati) got a Constitutional Amendment on the Ballot to ban gay marriage and all civil unions ( a real win fall for corporations looking to save money and a real hot button for the Christians) ... that deft ploy drove the conservative base out in larger numbers than 2000.

The national discussion about an Amendment was a ploy to make it a state's issue. Rove is an evil genius.

On the other hand they hit their strengths with the bus tours in rural areas. They also kept Kerry supporters out of these rallies. This happened on many occasions in Ohio and is well documented. People in Kerry T- shirts were asked to leave. Citizens were not allowed to listen to their President speak about his aims for the future.

What kind of leader is it that says you are with me or against me? What kind of President turns away his own citizens?



So we have the new America, unfolding right here. Values means Christianity, and the economy, health care, Iraq, terrorism ... these are way down the charts. God is more important than these petty things, of course.

Our Democracy is in serious trouble and the rest of the world needs to be prepared for the "values" attack that is about to spread further over the planet. You really need to prepare.

The rule of values, and one religion's values, this was not the intent of America and is a clear failure of America, and of Democracy. Majority domination was not the aim. Tolerance, fairness, justice and the protection of the minority, not the marginalization of the minority ... this was the aim.

We have a President who divides based on his own global test ...  faith.   A man whose idea of tolerance is "see it OUR way and I will include you in the spoils of power."    This is not democracy. This is the beginning of the end of America.

Freedom of religion does not mean the freedom to dominate with your religion. That's not democracy, that's the end of America.

In the world domination plan of Karl Rove, any authentic criticism of Bush was turned and fired at Kerry ... and so the masses say. "Both sides are the same!"   This is a masterful manipulation and it has lead us to doubt the existence of true facts in politics. To have no truth is to have no discussion. To have no discussion is to have no democracy, only the rule of faith and fear and mob rule.

Many college educated and poorly educated Christians alike, along with President Bush feel calmly sure they are endowed with a righteous fix for this world ... and ironically they feel at the same time they are fixing us with their superior values that the majority of the world will be destroyed at the Rapture, with the second coming in 3000 AD or thereabouts as predicted in the Bible.

I'm sorry Ohio let you down, but who can argue with faith?   This election was all about one topic ... faith ... as is this country now.

Policy issues and character are all a smoke screen for "values".    A born again is good enough for them ... certainly better than a tolerant Catholic.    An empire builder is fine, as long as it's a Christian Empire.




Tolerance is flip flopping after all ... it is to disagree with and yet accept.

Befriend or condemn!





I am not an american - so please forgive me from commenting, but I could not agree more with the sentiments expressed above, you reflect much of the opinions of all thinkers in the wider world.

What has happened today is effectively an election for the world. The result is going to herald an era of more strife, more terrorism, greater divisions and as a result markedly less global security and freedom. From where I am sitting outside America, the only positive hope that comes from all this is the realisation that around half of all americans are similarly perceptive and remain in fear of their own regime. This means that some hope of change survives Smile
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: George Massenburg on November 03, 2004, 09:49:19 AM
lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 01:04


[...]"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.
[...]


Thanks for being brave enough to post this.  I see where Brad has moved this over before it generated a ruckus on my forum.  I'll take awhile to see what needs to be stated publically on my forum.  If anything...

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.

George
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Kevin Perry on November 03, 2004, 10:15:06 AM
George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49


[...]

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?


As an aside,  the electoral college is silly.  I thought the 2000 election was an obvious example of how it is archaic and needs to be done away with.    Gore won the American vote.   This election underscores it again.   Bush gets a historical majority in the popular vote...and the next day we're still hearing how close it is.    It is a 300 year old device that is no longer needed.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 03, 2004, 10:34:00 AM
Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 10:15



Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?



Bush does not read the papers, only the Bible.

Our country is in the hands of a majority who have a flawed view ... that religious Freedom means ruling the democracy with their Religious view.

If every American had only a 2 year college education as to the intent of our country, by reading the papers of all the founders, on all sides ... they would find out that we are off course.  Today is not the spirit of America, today is the ongoing death of democracy.

To vote is not democracy.

To win a majority is not to be Righteous.

This is not a matter or 'opinion' or 'bias' .. it's a matter of fact.

When faith trumps fact, you have a theocracy.  Everything about this election says Theocracy.  The fear campaign, the exit polls on values over issues, the education of most of the red counties in America.   I have 100% respect for the faith of every American, but their intelligence is another matter.  Their understanding of what America is, that's another matter too.




I was asked in a PM .. "what to do?"  do we relive the 20s and exPatriate?

No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.

The religious right is a fear based and hateful bunch of people who masquerade around as if they know love and conservatism.  They do not know love, nor tolerance, and they do not understand the country they control at this time.  Their 'conservatism' is global Theocracy.

America is not a majority-rule idea ... it's a timeless idea based in principles that include defending the minority views.  There is a huge priority placed on this by the Founders.

We need to reeducate the majority and we need to love them, even as they hate us, and hate the various minority ideas that they suppress.

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.



For sure we now know this.... the bubble of American ethical supremacy in the world, and all the economic, principle based and diplomatic (read: freedom spreading) gains that came with that are gone.

The moral talk of the Right is a smokescreen for their insular views, their fear of freedom and the diverstity of humanity, and their narrow and manipulative definition of values.  
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: MB on November 03, 2004, 11:06:28 AM
Nice post Brian but the fact is something significant changed for a lot of us today.

Yesterday I was disgusted with Bush and his cronies.

Today I'm disgusted with Americans.

Yesterday I blamed Bush.

Today I blame Americans.

You didn't fulfill your moral responsiblity and get rid of this abomination; you entrenched him with a majority.

I'm no longer willing to blame the media's complicity; unwilling to put it down to clever spin. Bush's contempt for humanity is absolutely transparent and self-evident. He killed 100,000 Iraqis for a crime they didn't commit. You gave him a glowing endorsement and solid majority in the popular vote. How is that moral or Christian? It's jingoism at it's worse, imperialist, neo-conservative bullshit. And you re-elected this idiot and all the cynicism and hypocrisy he represents?

Shame Americans, shame.


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 03, 2004, 11:32:12 AM
>>>>
The religious right is a fear based and hateful bunch of people who masquerade around as if they know love and conservatism. They do not know love, nor tolerance, and they do not understnad the country they control at this time. Their 'conservatism' is global Theocracy.

America is not a majority-rule idea ... it's a timeless idea based in principles that include defending the minority views. There is a huge priority placed on this by the Founders.

We need to reeducate the majority and we need to love them, even as they hate us, and hate the varioous minority ideas that they suppress.

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.

For sure we now know this.... the bubble of American ethical supremacy in the world, and all the economic, principle based and diplomatic (read: freedom spreading) gains that came with that are gone.

The moral talk of the Right is a smokescreen for their insular views, their fear of freedom and the diverstity of humanity, and their narrow and manipulative definition of values.
>>>>

No truer words could be spoken Smile I would add that this sentiment should apply to the whole world - not just the USA.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 03, 2004, 11:46:00 AM
Do the American people really want to live in a Christian Iran? That seems to be the message of this election. The only possible silver lining I can see in this is that when the people see what they just voted for they will be horrified and the midterms will see a return to sanity. What scares the crap out of me is that the people may actually want a theocracy. If this is true, our days as a great nation are numbered.
This is a sad day in American history.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PookyNMR on November 03, 2004, 11:48:37 AM
You think you guys are disappointed, I was cheering for Ralph Nader...

Nathan - a displaced American
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: George Massenburg on November 03, 2004, 11:48:39 AM
Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 09:15

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49


[...]

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?


As an aside,  the electoral college is silly.  I thought the 2000 election was an obvious example of how it is archaic and needs to be done away with.    Gore won the American vote.   This election underscores it again.   Bush gets a historical majority in the popular vote...and the next day we're still hearing how close it is.    It is a 300 year old device that is no longer needed.


I very much look forward to debating this with you face to face one day, perhaps soon.  Because if you have had a reasonable education, and have the intellectual ability to retain several perhaps conflicting points of view and if you know the facts it shouldn't be difficult to make it clear why I'm so confounded about folks choosing Bush as the leader of the most powerful country in the world.

Why am I afraid?  Start here: because very close to half of the people in this country have expressed that they don't trust Bush's leadership.  Rather than govern from the center, as Clinton more or less did, and as politicians in other countries must often do, Bush has acted and indicates that he will continue to act as if he has a mandate to pursue the conservative right agenda unfettered.

And he's a liar.

George
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: ajcamlet on November 03, 2004, 11:50:34 AM
MB wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 11:06


Yesterday I was disgusted with Bush and his cronies.

Today I'm disgusted with Americans.

Yesterday I blamed Bush.

Today I blame Americans.

You didn't fulfill your moral responsiblity and get rid of this abomination; you entrenched him with a majority.



this man is right.  I have heard Sean Hannity call the Northeast a whining focus group that should get with the program.

We in the NYC metro area did our job.  California did its job.

The fat, bloated, fearful, close minded, uber-christian middle of this country let us all down.

Kiss Roe v. Wade good bye.

Stem cell research - c-ya.

Oh - and all you queers better move to the coasts.

Lets just call it what it is - The Crusade continues.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: mark fassett on November 03, 2004, 12:20:44 PM
Blame Americans... we do deserve it.  However, just remember that MILLIONS of Americans, just under half the registered voters, voted against Bush.

It doesn't say much for the intelligence of the general American public though, I'll certainly agree... and rightly so.  When the majority vote for a guy who is responsible for the lives of 100,000+ people in war with a false premise... well, what else is there to say?  If "faith" is a more important tenent then jobs and people freakin' LIVES then what else is there to say?  

Just remember there are two Americas.  I live in California, and every election I'm reminded again why I still do.  
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 03, 2004, 01:14:50 PM
mark fassett wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 17:20

Blame Americans... we do deserve it.  However, just remember that MILLIONS of Americans, just under half the registered voters, voted against Bush.

It doesn't say much for the intelligence of the general American public though, I'll certainly agree... and rightly so.  When the majority vote for a guy who is responsible for the lives of 100,000+ people in war with a false premise... well, what else is there to say?  If "faith" is a more important tenent then jobs and people freakin' LIVES then what else is there to say?  

Just remember there are two Americas.  I live in California, and every election I'm reminded again why I still do.  


This isn't the fault of the american people, any more than any other regime has been the sole fault of whatever population was around at the time of its inception. It's a kind of infectious paradigm that engulfs the way people think and see things. It's a problem with human nature and the way we are made. Problem is - as history tells us - by the time people wake up to it, all too often they have been stripped of the very powers they once had to redress things Sad

IMVHO and experience there is nothing more dangerous to humanity than people who have found reason to believe their convictions are divinely blessed and therefore unassailable. The reason that 'faith' and its accompanying simplistic reactions are so compelling and infectious is that they require less effort and consideration in their wholesale adoption Sad

The more you 'stress' a population by leading them into strife and installing fear and adversity as a constant low level condition, the more they tire and the more likely they are to adopt the simplistic concepts and actions they are presented with. All dictators since the beginning of humanity have used such methods - sadly they are second nature and part of the human condition.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Kevin Perry on November 03, 2004, 01:16:37 PM
George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 16:48


I very much look forward to debating this with you face to face one day, perhaps soon.  Because if you have had a reasonable education, and have the intellectual ability to retain several perhaps conflicting points of view and if you know the facts it shouldn't be difficult to make it clear why I'm so confounded about folks choosing Bush as the leader of the most powerful country in the world.




That would be fun....I live right up the road.  (Actually looked at some land not long ago down in L.F.)   We've met but I'm sure you don't remember me.  

When that day comes we can talk music/producing for a bit right?  Just a few questions about "Straighten Up and Fly Right" would suffice.  
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Techne on November 03, 2004, 01:46:48 PM
We had the opportunity to prove to the world that the majority of our people are intelligent, globally minded individuals who do not see the world as an "us vs. them" situation.  I'm ashamed to say that we've failed.  I don't think that the problem was in informing/educating people, information often justifies flawed beliefs and gives a false sense of dignity.  

Knowledge is not wisdom.  

The reality of all this (as we've now blatently admited to the world) is that many Americans, deep down, are self serving elitists who do not care one iota what goes on outside our borders.  Foreign policy to these people is always either an offense or defense.  
It's going to be a long, long 4 years.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Fibes on November 03, 2004, 01:55:03 PM
All opinions aside, W is not half the man his father is, why he deserves another term is beyond me utilizing that simple concept alone. Any president that does not threaten to veto or veto on single thing in 4 years is a puppet without any balls. A very expensive puppet mind you.

We will lose countless lives in late Novemeber in NW Iraq, something that should have happened two-six months ago given the situation over there. If you are going to fight a war for Mithra's sake fight the fucking thing rather than simply pissing off your enemy and gaining new ones in the process because you don't have any damn balls. I'm so sick, I could puke.

BTW Howard Dean would have won, he had enthusiasm, oh wait, that's what, that's what the country frowned on him for. Values! He acted like he gave a shit and the media pissed on him.

Libertarian who voted democrat out.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: MedicineDog on November 03, 2004, 01:59:10 PM
lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004


To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.


I agree with your sentiment here, but am not sure I can accept it.  What scares me is the opportunity for COMPLETE and unchecked mayhem from the conservative evangelical right in the next 4 years.  Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection now.  There may be an opportunity to appoint as many as 4 new (conservative) supreme court justices.  The Patriot Act will continue to infringe on our civil rights.  Intolerance will continue to reign.

While noble in concept, I don't think you can "reeducate" or "love" the evangelical right into changing their way of thinking.  Their whole credo is very similar to Bush's approach to terrorism - "You're either with us, or against us."  There's no middle ground with these people.  When you add to that the mix of right-wing radio continually screaming at the top of its lungs and corporate control of the airwaves - there's no hope for change any time soon.

I, for one, am incredibly angry that I now live in a country where the majority of voters think that two gay people exchanging rings in a marriage ceremony is more of a concern to them than losing their own personal freedoms, being sold out to big corporations, or the lives of 100,000 innocent men, women and children.  Disgusting.

Let's remember that people had to sign a "loyalty oath" before they could get into a Bush function.  Check the history books, the last time that happened it was a guy named "Hitler" doing it.

My thinking is that I need to get out while I still can.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: barefoot on November 03, 2004, 02:11:16 PM
lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:34


I was asked in a PM .. "what to do?" do we relive the 20s and exPatriate?

No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right......

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.


Brian,

I know what you're saying is the right thing to do.  But honestly, I'm having trouble staying as altruistic and civic minded as you.   The direction this country is heading makes me feel like packing up and washing my hands of the whole thing.   My wife and I are already sacrificing dearly to put our 5 yr old daughter in a school where she can get a world class education, learn other languages and real science, and gain an expansive and open minded world view.   Why should we go through all this just to have her grow up in a society where none of what she learns is even valued?   In fact it's denigrated.  

What is a country but the people who live in it?   And when all connection with the majority of those people seems lost, what is one left with?  

I live in the most progressive area of the whole country.   And still I feel the weight of this fundamentalist movement bearing down on me and my family.   My wife lost a brother in the first Gulf war.   Her dead brother's son is now fighting in this one.  If we're not safe from this insanity in San Francisco, then where?  

Sometimes I'm really inclined to just ditch this place and let the morons stew in their own shit.   I know it's not right, but I'm starting to feel worn out.      

Thomas
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: zakco on November 03, 2004, 02:16:29 PM
MedicineDog wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 10:59


I, for one, am incredibly angry that I now live in a country where the majority of voters think that two gay people exchanging rings in a marriage ceremony is more of a concern to them than losing their own personal freedoms, being sold out to big corporations, or the lives of 100,000 innocent men, women and children.  Disgusting.



I couldn't agree more.
This election proved to the entire world where America's priorities REALLY lie.

America is starting to remind me of a dog I once had....Big, powerful, kind at heart, but completely afraid of it's own shadow. In many ways, he was a great companion, but when frightened, he would attack instantly before realizing what was really happening.
His short life was spent in a constant state of fear and distrust.

America needs some serious counselling.

Shame, shame, shame.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: steve parker on November 03, 2004, 02:23:18 PM
Quote:

he direction this country is heading makes me feel like packing up and washing my hands of the whole thing.


the trouble is that there is no part of the planet isolated from the effects of US decisions.
half of america deserve what they're getting.
but the rest of the world have just watched the school bully vote to remain a bully.
when the world's heads are flushed down toilets, sooner or later they retaliate...
....oh no...wait....that's terrorists.....my mistake.....

Sad

steve parker
(a charismatic evangelical christian thankfully living in a SECULAR country)
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 03, 2004, 02:57:22 PM
barefoot wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:11

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:34


No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right......

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.


Brian,

I know what you
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Nika Aldrich on November 03, 2004, 03:29:07 PM
Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 15:15

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49

I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  


Because 62% of this country still believes that Saddam Hussein had direct complicity in the bombing of the world trade center.

That's a bill of goods sold to them by this administration, however accidentally they make it seem.  One does not have to read very much to understand the reality of our involvement over there.

I do not think it is unreasonable to talk about the ignorance of a large part of this country.

Nika
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PookyNMR on November 03, 2004, 03:40:13 PM
Nika Aldrich wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:29

I do not think it is unreasonable to talk about the ignorance of a large part of this country.

Nika


Not to offend anyone, but most other countires (like Canada) see American citizens as hideously ignorant and myopic.

Nathan
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: barefoot on November 03, 2004, 04:13:47 PM
lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 11:57



Great points Thomas.  Of course a little disappointment is human.  But to live in truth is the greatest gift to humanity or to ourselves .. so we must CELEBRATE this day for the truth about America is finally  clear....................................................... ................................................

We all need to work together to stop this trend of Polarity and Dogma.  

Religion is easy ... cynicism is easy ... separation is easy ... love is hard, courage is hard, reaching out is hard. standing up is hard.

The Right stands with God for their crutch ... and we must stand with Truth.

Very wise words indeed, Brian.

Since the day my daughter entered the world she has shown with such and undeniably bright light.  And her light grows with every day.   I say this with the pride of a parent and as much objectivity as I can muster in this regard.   At times like this it’s very tempting to want to teach her the theories of the world, yet sequester her from its realities, keeping her to ourselves - almost feeling that the world is undeserving of her.   But I know this is impossible.   We’re all interconnected and part of this organism we call humanity - and the greater organism of our earth.   We can’t hide from it any more than we can hide from ourselves.  And when some of us fall ill, we all fall ill.  

I do know what my responsibilities are towards making this a better place to live.  And I know the example I must set for my daughter, so she understands her responsibilities in the world – especially with the great gifts she finds in her possession.   But occasionally it's good to hear some inspirational words to remind me.  

Thanks,
Thomas
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 03, 2004, 04:26:49 PM
Paul Frindle wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:14


IMVHO and experience there is nothing more dangerous to humanity than people who have found reason to believe their convictions are divinely blessed and therefore unassailable. The reason that 'faith' and its accompanying simplistic reactions are so compelling and infectious is that they require less effort and consideration in their wholesale adoption.




Wow. Thank you for saying that so beautifully. That is one of the most basic concepts our nation was founded on. There is only one one mention of religion in the Constitution and it is:

Article IV
Clause 3:  The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.  
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Rob Darling on November 03, 2004, 05:16:56 PM
With absolute conviction and belief, in challenge to the entire world, we stand sqarely in the shoes of Germany in 1938.  With this election, we have opened the door to an altogether new, previously unknown level of worldwide destruction, polarization, and suffering.  We can still pull back from the brink- there may in fact be enough spine left in our people, and the structure of our Democracy still is filled with enough checks and balances to help them do what they need to do.  But the fact is that the violence we unleash in our massive effort to maintain an ignorance of the evidence of our failures and wrongs can only be expressed in terms of this strength- they must be spoken of in these terms.  Because until enough people make enough noise, the sheep will not wake up and we will all have ended up in the slaughterhouse.  

As a New Yorker, I am among those who payed heavily the first time that those we face in challenge came to symbolically destroy America.  I am very concerned that next time, they will really destroy us.  All so a bunch of ignorant, self-deceiving, fear-driven fools can live an empty life on the cheap.

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 03, 2004, 07:17:47 PM
Techne wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 18:46

We had the opportunity to prove to the world that the majority of our people are intelligent, globally minded individuals who do not see the world as an "us vs. them" situation.  I'm ashamed to say that we've failed.  I don't think that the problem was in informing/educating people, information often justifies flawed beliefs and gives a false sense of dignity.  

Knowledge is not wisdom.  

The reality of all this (as we've now blatently admited to the world) is that many Americans, deep down, are self serving elitists who do not care one iota what goes on outside our borders.  Foreign policy to these people is always either an offense or defense.  
It's going to be a long, long 4 years.


I don't believe that 50% of americans are self serving elitists, that is absolutely NOT my impression. America is a great and noble country that has much to be proud of and (used to) command deserved respect globally. It all boils down to what is classed as knowledge in a world where absolutely everything we see and hear is subject to spin and prompted interpretation.

The sadness for me for both America and the U.K is that we (or 50% of us at least) have allowed ourselves to be manipulated by the most astonishing lies imaginable - fuelling the most idiotic witch hunt of all time - into believing that the people that serve us are our only hope of survival, from a threat our very leaders themselves have moulded and manipulated to their own advantage. The only thing this mania serves is to provide a platform to support their power base. This is very dangerous stuff indeed as it not only divides America - it divides the whole world.

As someone who was around in the 60's watching so called communists rounded up and tried, when we were sold the idea that the USSR was a malignant organisation that threatened our whole lifestyles, the spectre of our combined forces picking around Afganistan looking for a couple of disaffected religious dissidents who are actually outcasts from their own religion, and being told that there is somehow a global organisation hell bent on (yet again) attacking our whole lifestyle - and of course being told that we should live in fear and intrepidation and that 'they' are the only ones capable of offering us respite from this terrible threat - is frankly deja vue. When I was 10 years old even, I considered the whole communist witch hunt an ammusement, surely no-one could really believe it, could they? - But that was before I realised the damage that false information deliberately instilled into the population could cause!

And as for Iraq - well this has to be the pinnacle of deception. Absolutely nothing that has been claimed as evidence of an imminent threat posed by Iraq has turned out to have any truth what so ever. So deep and obvious are the lies, that honest people have been driven to suicide. How obvious must the lies and manipulation become before people wake up to the sick nature of the society we are buying into?! Can people not see it's all manufactured?

There have always been looneys capable of commiting atrocities and terrorists fuelled by disaffected societies desperate for redress. Hell we created our own here in the U.K 30 years ago by gunning down protesters who campaigned for a united Ireland - and those people bombed us almost monthly for 30 years thereafter. ETA have bombed France for decades - hell the bank over the road from where I lived in Paris was flattened twice in the 3 years I lived there. The difference then was that it was not 'expedient' for the governments involved to 'draw attention' to it let alone use it political capital.

What we are seeing now IMVHO is such a decline in the very fundamental basis of our societies and standards of faith that governments, bereft of any further raison d'etre have resorted to the methods of political dictators to provide us with a platform for their existence. As these people struggle ever-further to maintain their power by marching roughshod over the wider world, this has become a global issue of grave importance. The outcome of all this now effects the whole world and all peoples of the world are involved in its threat.

We had a chance to perhaps begin to start turning this whole mess around during these last few days, but sadly the people charged with the onerous responsibility of this particular battle - flunked out this time. But I cannot find it in my heart to blame them - the task has become just too big, even for the mighty american people Sad One can only speculate how far the damage of the next 4 or 5 years will spread. But in the final analysis I personally do trust the people's power to sort such things out - albeit after many pointless deaths have occurred.
People are simply not as thick and powerless as dictators (consumed by their zeal for ever more power), always end up assuming.

Apologies for rant - I will shut up now.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 03, 2004, 07:35:08 PM
Quote:

 

Let's remember that people had to sign a "loyalty oath" before they could get into a Bush function.  Check the history books, the last time that happened it was a guy named "Hitler" doing it.

My thinking is that I need to get out while I still can.


One last word - exactly!
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Hallams on November 03, 2004, 09:00:05 PM


I read a post a while back that mentioned ?the world is watching America.???..In Australia the Liberal Government, a proud supporter of Bush?s war in  Iraq, was re elected with an increased majority in the lower house and control of the Senate, our house of review. Voting is compulsory so I can only accept that the majority of Australians don?t see things as I do. Many lies of our Government have been exposed yet they still won! Liars whose policy contributes to the death of 100,000 innocent civilians still have credibility in the eyes of the democratic majority. I find it very hard to accept.
What I saw in a new way for Aust politics was one of our most influential contemporary churches seemingly aligning itself with the Liberal Party.
 
My great hope was that Bush would not be re elected.

While I share common ground with those who feel the same way about your newly re elected President I feel the need to clarify some perspectives.

?Yet we, America, all of us ... have collectively reelected a man with failed policies from every viewpoint except Christian Faith. Fact.?

From the viewpoint of many Christians, myself included, what is presented to the world by Bush?s Christianity is a clear misrepresentation of what the founder of Christianity was on about.

I am sure the founder of Christianity has pretty strong opinions on matters relating to injustice and oppression not to mention the unequal distribution of wealth within nations and inter-nationally. Then there are the issues related to the pursuit of wealth at the expense of others and how power can have a corrupting influence.

Like many words the word ?Christianity? has many meanings, so much so that I don?t even want to call myself a Christian, as I am so for away from the false assumptions  that it inspires that can be mostly attributed to Fundamentalism?..simplistic world views??.immature black and white, you are with us or against us dogmatic rhetoric.

For a Christian perspective that is a well informed alternative to you know what etc check out:
http://www.sojo.net/

?Religion is easy ... cynicism is easy ... separation is easy ... love is hard, courage is hard, reaching out is hard. standing up is hard.?

I will finish my little rant from down under with a quote from J.F Kennedy

?The Life of the Arts? far from being an interruption, a distraction in the life of a nation, is close to the centre of a nations purpose and is a test of the quality of a nations civilization .?

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Loco on November 04, 2004, 12:40:16 AM
robdarling@mail.com wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 17:16

With absolute conviction and belief, in challenge to the entire world, we stand sqarely in the shoes of Germany in 1938.


Homeland security officers... Gestapo officers... whatever. A business-driven war by an ultra-nationalist ego supported by people that follow flags and not ideas or facts. Every country deserve its government. And this one is staying because nobody has done something about it. Democracy has been fooled twice in a row... should you keep playing those rules when they are not?

Too much thinking... too many images come to my mind... I don't want to have those dreams again
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: steve parker on November 04, 2004, 02:28:38 AM
get ready for this....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/politics/campaign/04conser ve.html

a victory for graceless christianity.

steve parker.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: robk on November 04, 2004, 05:18:03 AM
Disbelief, outrage - just two of many words that describe how I feel, and I see I'm far from alone in this.

I'd particularly like to thank Paul Frindle for making excellent points in this thread and stating them so clearly.

I'd also like add a "me too" to the following from Chris Hallam...

Hallams wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 02:00


From the viewpoint of many Christians, myself included, what is presented to the world by Bush?s Christianity is a clear misrepresentation of what the founder of Christianity was on about.



It troubles me greatly that many people will perceive that I carry the same label as Bush & co.

It also now troubles me that our own Tony Blair will be re-elected for a 3rd term next year  ...something I considered to be unthinkable only a couple of days ago.

Rob Kirkwood
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 04, 2004, 10:24:00 AM
MedicineDog wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 13:59

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004


To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.


I agree with your sentiment here, but am not sure I can accept it.  What scares me is the opportunity for COMPLETE and unchecked mayhem from the conservative evangelical right in the next 4 years.  Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection now.  There may be an opportunity to appoint as many as 4 new (conservative) supreme court justices.  The Patriot Act will continue to infringe on our civil rights.  Intolerance will continue to reign.

While noble in concept, I don't think you can "reeducate" or "love" the evangelical right into changing their way of thinking.  Their whole credo is very similar to Bush's approach to terrorism - "You're either with us, or against us."  There's no middle ground with these people.  When you add to that the mix of right-wing radio continually screaming at the top of its lungs and corporate control of the airwaves - there's no hope for change any time soon.



The hope for change is YOU.    And if you quit ... we all lose.

The citizens who get America as a concept need to be more involved ... the Religious Right has organized since Goldwater lost ... they had Reagan ... and now Bush.




Our Democracy is failing because of poor education by those who vote and devious tricks by their leaders.  We cannot control that.

We CAN control the assumption of superiority by those of us who understand the Constitution. And we can act ..we can do better.

Get off your ass and drop the "it's hopeless" cynicism and DO something.   Arguing about how much it's a lost cause is pathetic and a total waste of everyone's time.  Rove is an evil genius.  the Right will not stop in 2008.  Time is wasting.


Democracy means people-rule, demos cratos ... so RULE, or be ruled.  It's a contest ... and we're losing.

Stop talking like an ingrateful American, like democracy should just work without you fighting for freedom and justice, like it should be easy ... stop acting like losers and act like citizens ... like fighters ...





Only a small % of the Bush voters need to connect across the aisle.    This is hardly hopeless and you'll excuse my anger toward cynical  intellignece.

I can be compassionate for ignorance and fear ... that's humanity for all time ... but lazy, or cynical, or quitter responses to this loss from intelligent people are just too much.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Guest on November 04, 2004, 10:58:55 AM
We need to galvanize those who refrained from voting: youth (20-something) turnout this years was about the same as in 2000, yet they possibly have the most to lose with the re-election of Bush. Not to sound sexist, but where was the outrage among women? Kerry should have garnered 30 million female votes if women want to retain the right to control their own bodies. It's like Richard Farina sang back in the 60s:

For I am a wild and a lonely child
And the child of an angry man
Now with the high wars raging
I would offer you my hand
For we are the children of darkness
And the prey of a foul command.

Children of Darkness, Richard Farina ca. 1965
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 04, 2004, 11:23:31 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 05:17

I'm an atheist. A death metal musician. An admirer of Anton LaVey. Not a big fan of Jesus.

And yet, I think Christian conservatives are less dangerous and less fanatical than liberals. Go figure.  Laughing

Except maybe the real wackos like Jerry Falwell, who celebrated the 9/11 attack as a punishment from God. It's funny how the far right and the far left converge.


Here is one of the basic differences between the liberals and the Christian Conservatives. If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned. If the Christian right gets the country they really want, atheism and death metal music would be illegal. And saying the name LaVey in public would land you in jail.

You must understand the  "wackos like Jerry Fallwell" are Bush's core support. They are the people who were brought to the polls by the anti gay marriage crap. They are the people who put Bush over the top.  They are the people who will be running this country.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 04, 2004, 12:05:30 PM
I just posted this so I could use my new signature text.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Paul Frindle on November 04, 2004, 12:42:38 PM
robk wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:18


It also now troubles me that our own Tony Blair will be re-elected for a 3rd term next year  ...something I considered to be unthinkable only a couple of days ago.

Rob Kirkwood


I would expect Blair to be re-elected for exactly the same reasons that Bush has prevailed. From what I can see at this distance the American and British populations are pretty well aligned in their divisions about the current regimes, the same cynicism and sadly the same nationalism. And in the UK we have the added disadvantage of having no other credible candidates Sad
However, we may be saved somewhat by the fact that there is far less religious fundamentalism in the UK?
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gregg Seibert on November 04, 2004, 01:00:07 PM
I saw an interview on ABC News Now with the chief investigative reporter for al Jazeera (sp?) in London in the wee hours of election night.  He was asked what he thought a Bush victory would mean to the Arab world.  He responded that his thought was that the  American affirmation of Bush would be used as a justification for more violence against innocent Americans.  It was a very disturbing thougnt.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 04, 2004, 01:04:20 PM
Speaking of Death Metal, I can't believe that Deicide couldn't find a decent place to record for 20 Grand.  And as far as the religious wackos go, what would we do without them?  Thank god for them, they are the sole source of inspiration for art and music by believers and non believers alike.  I mean Jesus Tap Dancing Christ, from the great cathedrals of Europe to Gospel Music, from the great works of literature to Black Metal to the Blues Brothers.  Man's insistence that all us poor bastards conform to a god is what makes us perform at our best (meaning artistically)...besides trying to get pussy(meaning gay pop losers).  I really don't know what to say to comfort those throughout the world that feel the absolute dismay because my countrymen reelected the tea totaler but, well hey, you should have gotten you citizenship and voted you lazy bastards.  Or well hey brothers there's always Jack Daniels...  

When you throw around that casualty number you put yourself in the same bucket as those you accuse...ignorant believers....

By the way I would never vote for Bush in a million years and would not vote for Kerry in three million...but I agree with Pricey, the liberals scare the living shit out of me and I too am an atheist, Death Metal drummer and Blues Rock singer....shit I don't know it may just come down to testoterone.....

OK joking....

No matter what, I love all you guys for taking the time to help others on this forum no matter what your stupid politics are...
And as one of our greatest living Americans, Colin Powell once said, "Things will always look better in the morning"




Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 04, 2004, 01:30:29 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:04

but I agree with Pricey, the liberals scare the living shit out of me and I too am an atheist, Death Metal drummer and Blues Rock singer



Why? Can you or Pricey explain this? Seriously, I can't comprehend where this is coming from.  Please help me understand.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 04, 2004, 01:38:50 PM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:22

PRobb wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:23

If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned.

What universe are you living in? The Democratic Party is the #1 proponent of censorship. Gore and Lieberman ran on a "clean up the media" platform which was aimed at criminalizing sex and violence in movies and video games. The Dems especially want to censor political speech.

In a choice between the Puritans and the Communist Party, the Puritans are marginally less dangerous.


Not criminalizing, labeling. As to censoring political speech, that would be the "PC" crowd, which is an academic fringe movement that gets press way ouy of proportion to thier influence. And, of course, I think think they're wrong. Free speech means free speech.
The first amendment to the constitution is a pretty fair summation of the core of traditionnal liberal thinking.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: MedicineDog on November 04, 2004, 02:07:56 PM
lucey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 07:24


Get off your ass and drop the "it's hopeless" cynicism and DO something.   Arguing about how much it's a lost cause is pathetic and a total waste of everyone's time.


I seemed to have touched a nerve.

I really admire your spirit here.  It's admirable that you still feel the election process here in the U.S. is open, fair and balanced enough to actually allow unscripted change.  It's not.

As a country we've turned a very dark corner in the past several years.  The general media no longer exercises (or protects) its 1st Amendment rights.  They only report what is acceptable to their corporate parents, or what the government clears them for.  To even get an inkling of "the other side" of most current issues you have to tune into the likes of the Daily Show or Bill Maher.

We now vote (for the most part) with machines that,in most states, do not have an audit-able paper trail.  These same machines have proven to be quite hackable, the votes changed, with absolutely NO TRAIL of the hacking left behind.  How can you possibly think we can change ANYTHING in the voting booth?  Not te mention the unbelievable conflict of interest with Diebold (the maker of many of these machines).  The CEO is a very vocal supporter of Bush's administration.  He even PROMISED to deliver the votes in Ohio for Bush.  Come on, step away from the bong long enough to let the smoke clear!

You talk about it only taking a few individuals to reach across the isle to accomplish change.  Which individuals would this be?  Do you mean the ones who don't have any corporate backing, no pork to spread, and no personal agendas?  Please let me know when you find one of those, I'd like to shake their hand.

Everything that goes on in our government is bought and paid for by PAC money, corporate "gifts" and favors.  If you really feel those things don't affect how unscripted or honest change is stifled, I think you're missing the big picture standing behind your activism.

It's one thing to say "quit complaining, just vote them out".  How would you recommend doing that?  You site the changes in the 60s and the build of the conservative movement as proof that change can happen.  The dark side you're missing is that no one who was a demonstrator or vocal activist in the 60s could just be labeled an "enemy combatant" and thrown in jail for an indefinite period with no representation, and for no reason.  That can happen now.  It has ALREADY happened to some of our citizens.

Quote:

Stop talking like an ingrateful American, like democracy should just work without you fighting for freedom and justice, like it should be easy ... stop acting like losers and act like citizens ... like fighters ...


Hmmm... an ingrateful American, huh?  First time I've ever been called that.  I guess I should've put on my superhero cape before I came in here.

You may think my point of view is defeatist and that I'm acting like a loser, but I think my point is quite relevant.  You think things can change?  From the dawn of time NOTHING has changed.  There will always be a group of individuals in power and they will do anything they can to maintain that power.  They will lie, they will cheat, they will even kill, to maintain their stranglehold on the their power, and on the people they control.  That's ALWAYS what it's been about.  It always will be what it's about.  To quote George Carlin, "Fuck Hope!"

So, pardon me if I don't get up and sing a fight song with you.  I have seen NOTHING from this administration that indicates to me they have any thought of listening to "the other side".  They rule by fear and division.  Their right wing evangelical agenda will be so entrenched by the time they leave office that I truly believe it will take a civil war to give the government back to the people.  It surely doesn't belong to us now.

For the record, I voted (always have).  I also was the head of our precinct's democratic primary committee, a delegate to our state's primary, worked at several democratic rallies for Kerry (supplied the sound system and labor at no charge), along with other things like making "get out the vote" calls, etc.

What did you do?
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 04, 2004, 03:16:11 PM
MedicineDog wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 14:07


For the record, I voted (always have).  I also was the head of our precinct's democratic primary committee, a delegate to our state's primary, worked at several democratic rallies for Kerry (supplied the sound system and labor at no charge), along with other things like making "get out the vote" calls, etc.


so why all the hopeless talk?  

Hope is earned, not a given, and we need to be smarter in the future to earn some.

George Carlin is great and I love the guy .. but he's your Jesus ... and he's wrong about some things. Hope is real and it's the fuel the precedes everything good in life .. otherwise we'd have entropy rule far worse than today.

Cynics on the Left are worthless ... and all of your volunteering is countered 10 fold by those people that will read your words here and be LESS inclined to do something productive for the cause of America's true values.

Democracy is not for cynics or dogmatists... but for individuals with open minds and a willingness to dialog and pursue truth.   Obviously the Evangelicals and the new right is not this way ... and if you act similarly, what chance is there?

Your actions and words are as hypocritical as the evangelicals who believe in the Rapture yet also want to control the world until then.

Quote:


What did you do?


Keeping score is impossible and silly, we're on the same team ... but since you've asked:

I actively identified and spoke to a number of undecided voters in Ohio, showing them why Kerry was better for them personally and for America generally.  This was at peril to my financial interests or personal image in some cases.

I gave over $500 hard earned dollars to various groups as I could afford to and thought it necessary, even $25 last week to help Daschle fight Thune and $25 for the Colorado Senate race, when I didn't have it to spare.

I daily informed people on the web and the street as to our Constitutional basis, history and intent ... both Leftist cynics and Right leaning fear and control types.

I refused to give in to failure or powerlessness or victimization, the lazy alternative for intellectuals.



Your mind has turned negative emotions into a destructive force for change, instead of harnessing them as a constructive force for truth.  
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 04, 2004, 03:32:45 PM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:22

PRobb wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 10:23

If the liberals had the country they really want, your right to be who you are, believe what you choose to believe and make the music you want to make would be absolutely unquestioned.

What universe are you living in? The Democratic Party is the #1 proponent of censorship. Gore and Lieberman ran on a "clean up the media" platform which was aimed at criminalizing sex and violence in movies and video games. The Dems especially want to censor political speech.

In a choice between the Puritans and the Communist Party, the Puritans are marginally less dangerous.


Wow .. you are really dreaming here!  Gore and Lieberman are over, done, not relevent... that was an in-the-moment strategy aspect, not an overall liberal plan for all time.

With a worldview like this you cannot be in league with either liberals (your true friends that you fear) or social fascists (the conservatives you have chosen to feel safe around)

Your imagination has constructed a no win isolationism and I feel for you.

Let's look at facts 2004:

Liberals are INCLUSIVE by definition and liberals are the card carrying ACLU members  .... the Right we have now is CONTROLLING and DOGMATIC and they want to define morality for you.  They are NOT the small government and personal freedon conservatives of yesteryear.

Today's Right wants to define education as training-based .. bassically, pre corporate.  Forget the liberal arts ... or the arts generally ... that is WAY TOO RISKY to the stronghold of narrow so-called values they want for you and me.


Pricey you're bound to suffer with preconceptions like this ... the Liberals need your passion for freedom and truth on our side.  And once you accept which side you are truly on, you can help shape the platform.

As is you are alone and lost without a social circle.   Think it over.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 04, 2004, 04:56:50 PM
OK man I'll explain it to you.  You see, even though my band is not so good, Death Metal really keeps your drum chops up.  And the Blues gig is really great for chicks......

Or um, you mean explain the liberal thing....well OK like let's say you read an artical by oh hell....Pat Buchanan, I mean this guy even ran for Pres and so did David Duke and well let's say they are a little to the right.   They don't scare me because there will always be enough Americans  to shout or shoot (remember Wallace) them down .  But the liberals have a real chance to take the country over through their insidious propaganda that is just as bad but David Duke doesn't get 50 million votes, and when someone repeats some bullshit facist propaganda or makes racist comments fortunately the world has gotten to the point to well, look what happened to Rush Limbaugh, he got his ass fired recently and he should have gotten sued cause he's a fukkbag and totally detached from reality.  But these other fukk bags on the left go completely unchecked and people vote for liberals so they can get my fukken tax money.

So I don't mean to say that one side is better than the other, just that the libs are now an immediate threat and I am glad they got fukken stuffed....and since this is a saloon, all these cats that are saying America is fukked up right now can take a walk, because most of them just sit on their fat asses while the US is out stopping genocides in Yugoslavia and giving the North Koreans rice so they don't fukken starve to death and when things get a little difficult or don't turn out the way they preconcieve the world they come out from evey rock and start saying shame on the US.  Well then do something damn you, get off you fat Canuck and Euro asses and get down to the Sudan or stop the Madman from North Korea from Nukken fukken Tokyo....

By the way, since I currently reside here in my wonderful European host nation and have lived around the world I am happy to report that we are all the same, you, me, them, everybody, everybody....and to anyone who is still hanging with this thread....love ya...your friend in Germany,

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: MedicineDog on November 04, 2004, 05:58:52 PM
lucey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 12:16


so why all the hopeless talk?


Therein lies the Catch-22.  It's the only system we have.  A strange juxtaposition, I know, but I'm not so cynical as to think that just because the system is FUBAR that I should just drop out.  If I truly didn't care, why would I be posting in this thread?

While I still use and support the system, I don't share your fervor that we can conquer all and fix it by "fighting the good fight".  It's just that the deck is stacked WAY too high against those that wish to really change it.

Quote:

...and all of your volunteering is countered 10 fold by those people that will read your words here and be LESS inclined to do something productive for the cause of America's true values.


Wow, that I should swing so much weight!  Perhaps my cynicism will actually inspire others to pick up the torch, who knows?

Quote:

Democracy is not for cynics or dogmatists... but for individuals with open minds and a willingness to dialog and pursue truth.   Obviously the Evangelicals and the new right is not this way ... and if you act similarly, what chance is there?


The problem with that, though, is that the extreme right is not willing to compromise their beliefs - at all.  They're not willing to let people who are different from them exist on the same level playing field.  I don't care if someone's gay.  I don't care if someone's a far right evangelica born-again.  As long as neither of them show up at my door (or in my government) trying to impose their beliefs on me, I have no problems.  I'm sure the majority of this country feels that way.  Where I am willing to let the christian right have their beliefs, though, they will work hard to strip me of mine and make me conform to theirs.  When that type of thinking controls someplace like the Whitehouse, how would you propose reaching across the isle?

Quote:

Keeping score is impossible and silly, we're on the same team ... but since you've asked:


Sorry, wasn't trying to keep score.  I just meant to ask what you had done.  I'm glad to see you were out there walking-the-talk, so-to-speak.  It definitely adds credence to your viewpoints.

Quote:

Your mind has turned negative emotions into a destructive force for change, instead of harnessing them as a constructive force for truth.  


Well, that's a bit heavy, I think.  Still, I admire your willingness to soldier on for what you think is right.  I'm not sure how old a guy you are (not that it matters), but perhaps my age and experience have contributed to my cynicism.  I completely understand your point of view and don't necessarily disagree with it.  But there's an ever-growing part of me that thinks the only way to save this particular building is to burn it to the ground and start from scratch.

Thanks for the chance at some discussion without flames - it's most appreciated.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 04, 2004, 06:42:43 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 16:56


Or um, you mean explain the liberal thing....well OK like let's say you read an artical by oh hell....Pat Buchanan, I mean this guy even ran for Pres and so did David Duke and well let's say they are a little to the right.   They don't scare me because there will always be enough Americans  to shout or shoot (remember Wallace) them down including fukken me.  But the liberals have a real chance to take the country over through their insidious propaganda that is just as bad but David Duke doesn't get 50 million votes, and when someone repeats some bullshit facist propaganda or makes racist comments fortunately the world has gotten to the point to well, look what happened to Rush Limbaugh, he got his ass fired recently and he should have gotten sued cause he's a fukkbag and totally detached from reality.  But these other fukk bags on the left go completely unchecked and people vote for liberals so they can get my fukken tax money.



So your from Germany  ... okay ... let's start with that.   The German Liberals are not the America Liberals.  Period.  American politically involved liberals are moderates, just left of center.

As for "insidious propaganda" you need to make some examples.  On the Right we have pamphlets going out last week in the South saying "Kerry will tale away your Bible" and other such lies and fear-based propaganda.   We have the President lying last week about the weapons that were clearly in the US control. "We're not sure" he said.

As for Pat Buchanan ... he's now saying that these Neo Cons are not real conservatives ... that they are extremist nation builders!  That's Pat Buchanan saying Bush is dangerous to America.  The government's size has been INCREASED under Bush and he has run up a huge debt, and he has had no bid contracts to ideological friends.    Bush is NOT a conservative or even a free marketeer ... ideologically more like your Hitler - nationalistic, globally ignorant, bigoted, religious extremist, plays on fears.

Bush hasn't all out attacked the world aggressively to expand America as Hitler did to expand Germany, but he's doing so in pieces.  

Now as for your tax money (which is actually my tax money, as you're German) the Bush administration has put our tax burden at the highest number ever ... and they have put their economic faith in an economic recovery based on lower taxes for the rich.  Lower sounds good on paper, but does it work? Their own recent messiah, Ronald Reagan, saw it was a failure and changed his plan a few years in.  Supply side, or low tax economics did not work in the 80s and it's not working now.  Meanwhile,  Bush's own fear based politics continue to stifle us from recovery. A country in fear will never spend like a country with a leader who is truly strong.

You can pay tax now (under Democrats who can balance a budget) or you can pay taxes for 20 years under Bush.  It's like a credit card payment for the country.  Bush is running up the debt instead of asking us to pay more during war time, as all Presidents before had done.  This is bad policy.

So we will pay taxes later, with interest ... in fact the New Right is making us pay far more tax than than Moderates (called Liberals by the Right) would have done over these 8 years.  Afghanistan and Bin Laden would have happened, and the restructuring after the 9/11 report would have happened, but Iraq would not ... so 200 Billion to One Trillion saved. NOtto mention all the pissed off extremists that Bush is stirring up daily.

Moderate Liberals like Clinton and Gore and Kerry balanced a budget in the 90s.  Bush has NEVER balanced a budget.  Not in Texas, and not in the US. Never.  SO save your speech about "tax and spend Liberals"  THAT is PROPAGANDAS.




MedicineDog wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 17:58

 It's just that the deck is stacked WAY too high against those that wish to really change it.


I agree that it is stacked.

But it has always been this way .. fear vs. love  ... greed vs. fairness.  Rove has made a mastery of this game and he can still be beaten.

America will not burn down, however, as the founders installed pressure release valves (one of them is free speech) to keep it from boiling over.

We have to commit to change just as hard as he Right has done for 40 years.   If our ideas are better, we will influence and change.

FIRST ... our organization and ideas need to improve.

Liberals need to talk about God and Values and Freedom just as much as the Right does.   Yet we need better definitions, bigger definitions, more true definitions.

God is the universal intelligence, Values are Justice, Respect for all Individuals Rights, Freedom from Religion in Government, etc.

The American Left is afraid to talk about 'truth' and 'God' and 'values' as it is hard to do so and remain open minded.  SO the New Right has taken ownership of these powerful concepts, and in a time of Global upheaval ... like from now on!  These ideas are most important.

To not define the big concepts and talk about them in the most liberal and truthful way is to miss out on what is really important to the majority of Americans.  The Right has manipulated to great advantage the resistance to make concrete definitions and concrete statements.  This is the folly of the Left for all time.

So our definitions need to be BETTER, and still CONCRETE.

And our statements need to be CONCISE and with CONVICTION .. and yet open minded to learning.


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 04, 2004, 08:59:08 PM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 13:55

 The ACLU started its life as a Communist front organization, and it is stunningly hypocritical in the way it defends some freedoms but not others.


Oh? You mean the way those dirty Theocrats filed a brief defending Rush Limbaugh's right to privacy regarding his medical records? Those are the kind of hypocritical folks you need. The ACLU also filed briefs and sent an attorney to defend the right of the American Nazi party to demonstrate in public. They have also filed briefs for the KKK and other like minded organizations on freedom of speech and civil liberty grounds.

Please cite your examples of hypocrisy. Or are you just part of the echo chamber of lies and distortions?



Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 04, 2004, 09:05:53 PM
I am so disappointed. On Tuesday morning I really had a feeling that the young people in America were going to go to the polls and send a strong message to the NeoCon nutbags who are running this country. After all, like the sign held up by a young man standing behind the MSNBC desk all night said, "VOTE OR DIE".

Some republican strategist gleefully quipped on one the new programs today; "You can court the youth vote with rock stars, organizations, candy bars, whatever... they will always leave you standing at the altar. This is a known political absolute in conservative circles. For some reason the democrats just never give up. They keep trying to work the kiddy angle."

Voters 18-29 went for Kerry 55% to 43% nationally. Unfortunately, they were only 20% of the total voter turnout, which as a percentage of their age group, is smaller than the 54.22% total voter turnout. If they had proportionally represented themselves in this election, Kerry would have won. This is no idle guess, I have wasted a day of my time looking at Census/Voter turnout charts from 1998, 2000 and a preliminary demographic chart updated on Nov 4 2004. The kids did absolutely nothing different than they have done for the past three elections. I think John Kerry, his staff and many of his supporters (I'm in that group)  were counting on them to bring this election in. Talk about misplaced optimism. So much for the cell phone, Springsteen, U2, REM, Eminem, P-Ditty demo. All I can say is, watch your back, dog.

index.php/fa/358/0/

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 05, 2004, 12:37:04 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 23:10

Wyn Davis wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 19:59

Please cite your examples of [ACLU] hypocrisy.

Do you know who Walter Polovchak is? The ACLU has actively campaigned AGAINST asylum-seekers, property rights, gun rights, school vouchers, and other freedoms that the Left doesn't approve of. They have defended the right of psychiatrists to treat and drug "patients" against their will. They pose as defenders of free speech, but they'd rather free terrorists or defend NAMBLA members than help real victims of government oppression.


Wow ...

Good luck with that job hunt ... perhaps Montana.


or Washington DC



Constitutionally speaking Freedom is fine and dandy until it takes away from others Freedom... then it needs to be limited by the Government.  Your Freedom view seems to be one of unlimited power for the individual and zero responsibility to society.

A BALANCE is what America is all about.  Not Total freedom for individuals or Government control.  BALANCE.

The key to that balance is principles, not opinion or self interests in negotiation.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 05, 2004, 12:52:53 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 20:10

Wyn Davis wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 19:59

Please cite your examples of [ACLU] hypocrisy.

Do you know who Walter Polovchak is? snip! ...but they'd rather free terrorists or defend NAMBLA members than help real victims of government oppression.


Yes I remember the Polovchak case. Very tough. The ACLU has had to take some very unpopular stands over the years. Many of them extremely unpopular with its own members. I wonder what the position of folks like you would be if a foreign government prevented an American couple from returning to the US with their child? If the ACLU stepped in to represent that foreign government's interests, then you'd have hypocrisy. Constitutional rights are not arbitrary, they are absolute. Once they start being arbitrarily enforced they offer NO one any protection.

You'll have to do better than bait me with the NAMBLA free speech case. It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today. The people responsible for that horrible crime are the ones who committed it, not the ones who talk about it. I personally don't find that I need many laws to protect me from speech I don't want to hear.

If Bob Barr and Dick Armey can work with the ACLU as consultants on the protection of privacy issues, I'd say you are pretty far out on the frothing raggedy edge of the right wing twilight zone if those guys are too liberal for you.

Just so I understand what you are talking about, who are the real victims of government oppression?
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 05, 2004, 02:12:13 AM
Damn, I didn't know I was German...good luck to all you guys and god bless....\m/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 05, 2004, 03:26:53 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 22:29

OK, you support sending children back into Communist slave states. Sorry, I can't continue this conversation.


Wow. I didn't know discussing the defense of constitutional rights equaled the support of child torture. I'm starting to feel like I'm in some kind of Orwellian nightmare.




Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 05, 2004, 05:33:55 AM
You are! It's the R-E-P Saloon....except after you type something there is no knock at the door....well, not yet anyway....hold on a sec, I gotta get that....
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: PRobb on November 05, 2004, 10:43:42 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 16:55

 

Theocrats are my natural enemies, but the Republican party is not really controlled by the theocrats.


You're not really paying attention.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 05, 2004, 11:17:05 AM
PRobb wrote on Fri, 05 November 2004 10:43

Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 16:55

 

Theocrats are my natural enemies, but the Republican party is not really controlled by the theocrats.


You're not really paying attention.


My brother is born again, very intelligent, and he actually believes the Muslim relligion wants to rule the world.  

Not just the extreemists ... ALL of them.





If this is not 'Christians and Jews against the Muslims' I don't know what is:  The Neo Con Bible


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: MedicineDog on November 05, 2004, 11:59:11 AM
Pricey wrote on Thu, 04 November 2004 22:29

OK, you support sending children back into Communist slave states. Sorry, I can't continue this conversation.


A perfect example of right-wing thinking.  "You're either with us, or against us - there's nothing left to talk about."

Sheesh...
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 05, 2004, 05:19:19 PM
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Are a=saudiarabia&ID=SP75804
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 05, 2004, 05:30:01 PM
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area =jihad&ID=SP79404
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 05, 2004, 05:32:19 PM
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area =middleeast&ID=SR3304
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 05, 2004, 06:01:05 PM
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Are a=iraq&ID=IA19304
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 06, 2004, 03:25:38 PM
http://massgraves.info/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 07, 2004, 03:07:38 AM
Gideon ... Saddam was an evil dictator ... no argument from anyone on that.  

Lots of them around ... some in Africa right now.  That's not the point of criticism of Bush or the Iraq war.




(please consolidate your posts to one post)
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 07, 2004, 05:49:53 AM
You're exactly right Brian, with no disrespect intended, it is terrible for Gideon to interject facts into the argument. He would never be able to work at the New York Times.

France just shot down two fighter planes from a sovereign nation yesterday and you can't even find out on the internet if the pilots were killed. Is this because no one in the media (generally) gives a flying fukk?  Noone seems to be protesting France or calling Chirac Hitler right now....Chirac did not have to endure people on the UN security consel asking for bribes to do the right thing.  Where the fukk is Mr. Moore on this issue....if things escalate French troops will have to shoot even more people carrying machetes from atop their armored vehicles on full auto...hooah!...

I am sure France was acting in the interest of humanity (for a change) and maybe if things get out of hand down there they can finally use those nukes they keep testing on South Pacific wild life.

I haven't seen any clarity summing up the division amongst us over the US presence in Iraq.  Each opinionated group thinks the other is not viewing things correctly.  I truly respect anyone against the war but for the life of me cannot understand their position as they cannot mine....curious..

The real tragedy along with the loss of life on both sides is like the Soviet Union and the Cold War, all this fukking around being dictators like North Korea and Iran and wanting to Nuke people is delaying or work as one world on things like hunger and the evironment and focusing on the biggest threat...pop music!

P.S. Getting tired of the Spam mail from Canada trying to recruit people pissed off at the election who can sing in key...

Love yas....

TIK



Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: analog Tom on November 07, 2004, 01:34:52 PM
Quote:

"France just shot down two fighter planes from a sovereign nation yesterday and you can't even find out on the internet if the pilots were killed. Is this because no one in the media (generally) gives a flying fukk? Noone seems to be protesting France or calling Chirac Hitler right now...."
 

Yes, I saw that France had shot down two jets and destroyed three attack helicopters.  

But I also think I saw a report that France did that AFTER its peacekeeper troops were ATTACKED by those planes.  

Let's see, is there a difference here:  1) Planes attack French troops - French troops respond by destroying planes;  2) Saddaam has NO WMDs, NO plans to attack U.S., NO complicity with terrorists - U.S. 'responds' by slaughtering Iraqi civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure, imposing colonial rule, enforcing censorship on journalists, and turning over natural resources to Haliburton.  

Sure, I can see how people could get mad at France for this.  Afterall, this week I have heard from several people that George Bush's deficit was actually caused by Clinton's budget balancing policies!  

Cordially,  
Tom
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 07, 2004, 03:08:25 PM
Hey Tom,

Thanx for weighing in.  What I like about this forum as opposed to solely political ones or shitty talk radio is that well, generally people are smarter and more level headed.  I think you can learn much more here than at a place where everyone is patting each other on the back and banning those who dissent....

Your argument is exactly why I am glad that Bush won the election....just because of the willingness for people to stretch the truth while arguing against Iraq...

First of all I respect anyone who is against the war because I think it can only be judged by history in total and maybe the US blew it, but I doubt it.

But let's look at your points:  Iraq has been shooting at our pilots for the last ten years.  It is not US policy to slaughter civilians.  Haliburton will sink if they really did anything wrong because everyone typically faces justice.  Look for the WMDs in the lungs of Kurdish school children or mayber in Syria.
And France is in the Ivory Coast..why???  The same reason we are in Baghdad??  

Also, the whole Clinton/Bush thing is irrelevant....

Anxiously awaiting your reply

Respectfully and gratefully

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 07, 2004, 07:43:42 PM
http://www.massgraves.info/halapja/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 07, 2004, 07:55:20 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/15/sprj.irq.abbas.arr ested/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 07, 2004, 08:08:50 PM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interv iews/khodada.html
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 08, 2004, 03:29:22 AM
Well, obviously there is more to come.

My only point remains that we have a President that may not be the best we could have but unfortuately he is right, even though I don't approve of his rhetoric.  And I'm sure if Gideon were given enough time he could single handedly silence people bent on spreading misinformation.  Notice his sources, not exactly the National Review.....

I think it's terrible how Mr. Bush talks to Mr. Chirac I mean the French were only trying to get oil vouchers fair and square.  If the Bush camp did that I would close my studio and be in the street everyday......by the way, people here in Europe know what's up they just are more happy like some Americans to live in denial....

Thank you for the posts man and what's your name anyway....

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 08, 2004, 11:21:58 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3875277.stm
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 08, 2004, 11:24:27 AM
http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=5968
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 08, 2004, 12:18:28 PM
Man oh man......

Probably noone is reading this thread anymore anyway.....but it really sucks to get your blind accusations all ready and then suddenly have to face the facts....

Thanx for the posts....again...

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 08, 2004, 03:17:44 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 15:08


But let's look at your points:  Iraq has been shooting at our pilots for the last ten years.  


It is not US policy to slaughter civilians.


Policy or not, collateral damage happens.

What IS our policy is to prop up dictators like Saddam for temporary advantage and convenience, then make money off of them (just like the French) during the 90's when it was not allowed by US policy, then get elected Vice President, then make them into villians, manipulate intelligence, keep the debate from the American people, and attack Iraq to gain a strategic advantage in the Middle East.

And if it pisses off the Islamofascists for the next 20 years, makes Bin Laden look like a genius, so be it, what can those towelheads do to us?

Hey if not for Iraq .. 9/11 would never have happened!


Fuk me ... this naive arrogance and half-logic is nuts.

The US is not divine.

Quote:


Haliburton will sink if they really did anything wrong because everyone typically faces justice.  


WOW!  To naive to respect or respond to.  What planet are you on?

Quote:


Look for the WMDs in the lungs of Kurdish school children or mayber in Syria.


So the UN Weapons Inspectors did nothing eh?  Bunch of liars huh?


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 08, 2004, 04:09:50 PM
Well the planet I am on is Earth, right here with you ole buddy....

Um wow cool, so I am naive?  Well, you are right, but I wouldn't stop there.  I sir, am an idiot.  In life we all become victims of our own bullshit sooner or later.  Sometimes the girls (if you're lucky) think it's cute....

You were calling me German earlier, just to put you "en garde", and now you are accussing me once more....this time of being clueless...fair enough.

But, the fever gripping people right now is the most unbelievable thing I have ever seen in American culture....besides Pentacostals....and racists.  I wasn't old enough to appreciate the hypocrisy during the Vietnam war.

It's a religion to think that you and I ever supported Saddamn

You certainly have to agree that you cannot "make" him into a villian....won't you agree he is a monster?

America will always seek to gain the strategic advantage.  What are you doing about it?

Why do we need strategic advantage?

Is our history with the Arabs over the last 100 years mutually symbiotic?


I hope you don't confuse my method with the Socratean argument because I believe that is an asshole way to argue.....I am just trying to find common ground...

If I believed the accusations you currently level at my government and nothing was being done about it, I would close my shop, come home and sponser a revolt....I would give my life for it.....So let's find out if what these people (read fanatics) are saying....or maybe I for one don't even understand the argument...

So I would challenge you if you care at all about the world to offer some evidence.  So we can both be stripped of our naivety (not pronounced like Alex Trebek would).

What is your thesis man, I hear "America is evil" maybe what you are saying is the government is incompetent......then of course we agree and I will donate to whatever cause you sponser to bring about change....Stop the press....Some people think politicians are imperfect!!!!!

And humanity is imperfect!!!!Damn OK I agree....

As to the UN weapon inspectors, I have no idea.  Could you please broaden your argument.....I hope in this case I am not supporting my argument by just accepting the facts necessary to prop it up.....

Please provide the names of people who manipulated intelligence...they are traitors to humanity.

And I hope you weren't calling me arrogant, if we had a beer together you would definitely see that I have many faults I hope arrogance isn't one of them.....

And I can give you my sentiments in a nutshell....
Pop Music today fukken sucks!!!
Hopefully the world will be like the song "Imagine" some day although unfortunately I'll be dust....
It would be great to be an alcoholic without the health concerns...
The REP forum is significant
The US Pres is not my first choice, fukken Powell wouldn't run and McCain got his ass handed to him cause he wouldn't lower himself to be a true politician....
The war in Iraq is one of the most humane actions occuring at this time.....
I hate brushing my teeth...which is great since I live in Europe
There are many more that we cover at length when you come over to see me.....

Seriously Bro....lemme have it....both barrels...

Your friend in the Fatherland....

TIK


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 08, 2004, 04:42:48 PM
P.S.

If you care to notice the posts by Gideon and his sources....very important....sources you know, not some half-wit but like the hardcore news types... he is single handedly in this discussion eating everyone's lunch....if you guys that were ranting earlier haven't given up like a bunch of war protestors in NYC that had to stop by Macy's anyway....for a latte' or just want to quote people like Rush Limbaugh except on the other end of the dingbat spectrum....would notice you are having it handed to you....

much respect and love

Did I mention Europe?

lemme nough

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 01:07:51 AM
the intelligence community in America was in a huge debate, as divided as the country is now ... and Bush sheltered the American people, gave only one side, and hyped that side heavily.

The agents come out here and there but out of professionalism are not, and were not, going to speak out publically in large numbers or regularly ... they are the intelligence community, in the shadows.  Bush KNEW this and USED it to his advantage.

Those that have spoken feel deeply betrayed by the Administration for this reason.  Bush Inc. can speak but they really should not, they consult.



Iraq is becasue of the Neo Con agenda, not "freedom for the Iraqi people"  That's PR to sell it in a package that sells.

Project for the New American Century

Read the Statment of Principles ... what does it say?  short term economic problems (like 20 years?) huge military, deficits, imperialism, etc.

This group defines America 2004, add in Karl Rove and his fundamentalists and you see it for what it is.  The Soviet Union will be more free in 4 years at this rate and Freedom Wars may become the norm if we could pay for them.

This New America is not what is sold to us, and not the true will of the people.  Most Americans are not Empirialist at heart.  Usurped with lies and emotional bon mots, our government has been.  Sad it is.



Freedom cannot be won through a war of outside invasion.  Period.

Most of the new democracies of the world are failures, free market status has been gained but the democratic aspects are not there.  Soviets have Payola, Iraq is all about Payola.

Human evolve slowly ... in small steps... and by their own initiative.  So the new Democracies are not really evolved, just  nice wrappers of Commerce for the developed market, America, to exploit.

Real democracy and freedom are too had even for America!  Look around.   Corporations and religions run our country and they MOLD and SHAPE the will of the people through misinformation and propoganda campaigns of huge budgets.

Bush is a cog in their wheel. Charmingly disarming.  Evil in his manipulation.




Saddam and Bin Laden were also evil, but the STANDARD for an AMERICAN PRESIDENT is far higher so it IS fair and right to say Bush/Rove/Cheney are also Evil.

They aim to legislate bigotry, they lie to the electorate, manipulate with fear, repress freedom, belittle God as a political figure, take money from power, cut off social programs for the less fortunate (Head Start, Medicare, Public Schools, Social Security, etc.), kill with no respect (Bush lauging at the woman who begged him for clemency in Texas, Bush laughing at the fact of no WMD in Iraq), they repress the media that fuels a healthy Democracy (no views of caskets from Iraq, guided tours of the war) ... how much more do you need to get it?

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 04:47:12 AM
Yeah Bro,

I see you feel strongly about it.  Hey forging a new world is no cakewalk...but some of the causes you undertake are not exactly mainstream.....

I am against the Death Penalty in principle because if you legislate against murder, how can you use death as a punishment....

The case you are citing is the chick who was having orgasms as she sunk the axe into her victim each time....I just think examples like this do not warrant such outrage....this is where I don't understand the fervor....that's all, and millions of Americans seem to be outraged....over putting that filly down....hmmm

The intelligence community divided....hmmm well, the local Elks club is probably divided.  You have to take it on faith that the President did what he thought was right.  Remember, the Congress gave him the authority to act.  Most of the dumb ass politicians agreed with the decision and so did I and a majority of Americans agreed with him...the "skewing" of intelligence is only an accusation....

The Project for the New American Century, sounds like some bros with a philosophy that runs counter to say France....and China....so maybe it's better to just bury our heads in the sand and hope the world is better on it's own....

Imperialism?  What is wrong with that?

You said freedom cannot be won by a war of outside invasion....this runs counter to history my friend and is a tremendous inaccuracy on your part....Or maybe the thousands of people I saw in Normandy in June including Germans thanking Americans for their freedom was not accurate and you are right....

Corporations and Religions do not run America....

Give examples

Bush just signed the Medicare Drug Bill another huge entitlement and has not vetoed or cut anything....

And you did not dispute anything in my last posts....

Take care,

I have to get back at bro...

Trying to really understand what the fuss is about, your friend in Germany....

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 10:30:08 AM
I meant to say "democracy" cannot be won by invasion, not Freedom.  Of course invasion is commonplace, but does it create democracy?  No. Self rule must be earned by a people evolved to handle it.

Even the Soviet Union is not Democratic ... it only looks like it because they have elections.  If this is the sole standard we are all fuckd.




If you have "faith" in the President you are truly a fool with no idea what's happening here.  

Bush misleads the public with partial information daily, at unpresedented levels.  The information he presented on the threat of Iraq as fact was a hotly debated theory ... HUGE difference.

Had he said "we want to change the course of the planet, we want to spread America through conquest, like an Empire of hope"  that would have led to a different American debate, and he did not.

This war was sold as self-defense, not Empirialism.  As a leader you can be honest and communicate your vision, or you can manipulate fact and use fear to motivate ... clearly you see this historical dilemma all leaders face?

Ghandi

Hitler

both leaders




Kennedy

Bush

both leaders


"still trying to understand what tyhe fuss is about"???

lucey wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 01:07



Saddam and Bin Laden were also evil, but the STANDARD for an AMERICAN PRESIDENT is far higher so it IS fair and right to say Bush/Rove/Cheney are also Evil.

They aim to legislate bigotry, they lie to the electorate, manipulate with fear, repress freedom, belittle God as a political figure, take money from power, cut off social programs for the less fortunate (Head Start, Medicare, Public Schools, Social Security, etc.), kill with no respect (Bush lauging at the woman who begged him for clemency in Texas, Bush laughing at the fact of no WMD in Iraq), they repress the media that fuels a healthy Democracy (no views of caskets from Iraq, guided tours of the war) ... how much more do you need to get it?


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 12:01:50 PM
Bush = Hitler....


Kennedy = Ghandi....

Um,

I threw that faith out there as a pun man....

Yeah well, whew...

You can't have democracy without Freedom...

There is no more Soviet Union...

I think you make a good point about "selling the war" of course....this does not make Bush anything like Hitler whatsoever as it was Hitlers only goal to destroy (not counting some buildings and the Autobahn and VW's)

When you compare Bush to Hitler you only isolate huge amounts of discerning people sometimes to the point of rage bro....

I like maybe arrogance and incompetence and then sparingly....and I think the invasion of Iraq is a great undertaking....if it wasn't for Chirac, Saddamn and his murderous sons might be in exile in Libya and we could have effected change with a little less shattered mortar....

The whole Imperial criticism doesn't really wash either.  I don't know what the dictionary defines it as but I think it is a question of intent....

So we are slowly gyrating in a circular path with this....catch ya on the next go 'round....

Sincerely and hopefully....

Your addeled friend...

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 12:12:23 PM
P.S.

If you really believe that a major problem is the way Bush sold the war, I think that the fact that we need to start paying fukken attention to who we vote for is not lost on anyone....

I would be embarrassed by it since I live abroad except that the rest of the world has it even worse.....

So why is it the best we can do is Gore, fukken Bush's daddy, Loser fukken Kerry who couldn't even beat the most unpopular Pres who actually ran for re-election, sorry assed Ross Perot....I mean FUKKEN DAVID DUKE!!!! I mean what the fukk?

I bet if we had about six beers we would agree on the core issues since I think we are both arguing for humanity from different life experiences possibly.  I don't think that the election was decisive or a mandate.....I am glad that the fukken ding dong from Mass got his ass handed to him in a hat....cause he sucks even worse than Bush.....

I don't think that the 50+ million Americans that voted for Kerry are fukked up....probably most of them want what I want....

All I can say is.....

Candidates, Candidates, Candidates.....

Tell these fukken party assholes to quit fukken around...

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 01:06:57 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 12:01


Bush = Hitler....


Kennedy = Ghandi....




I never said EQUALS ... you put the equals signs in there.



The point is that one can lead by fear or vision.  Bush says he has a vision of freedom, but sells fear.

He says he respects life and wants cooperation and peace, but he brings death and separation and creates hate for America and within America.




Hitler sold fear for power, and traded on ignorance as does Bush.

Kennedy sold a vision as did Ghandi.  Fear was not a part of either's political power.






Once again, did I say that any of these people were EQUALS???

In policy or actions?

Absolutrely not

But the leadership techniques are similar.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 01:20:53 PM
NOT!

Not remotely similar dude...

But whatever....

It's not that I don't want to meet you half way...but not even close....

Not even a itsy bitsy bit....

Learn German....

Listen to the speeches...

Go to Death Camps....

Hello...

What an insult to the victims of Hitler...

Sorry...

Just can't agree...

He is your president, if he were similar to Hitler it would be your duty as a human to stop him at all costs....

Desperately waiting to see what the fuss is over....

The Marines are kicking ass in Fallujah right now.....like the SS in Poland in your estimation?

Alright man,  

What about Vintage 30's vs. Weber Ceramics for a metal sound?




TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 09, 2004, 02:30:42 PM
lucey wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 10:30

I meant to say "democracy" cannot be won by invasion, not Freedom.  Of course invasion is commonplace, but does it create democracy?  No. Self rule must be earned by a people evolved to handle it.



Germany:

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4879.html

   http://www.eurofound.eu.int/emire/GERMANY/CONSTITUTION-DE.ht ml

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/ggeng.html


Japan:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/tarawa.htm

http://www.shododesigns.com/japaninformation/history8.htm

http://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/outline/00outline.html

   http://www.mizuho-sc.com/english/ebond/law/constitution.html


France:

   http://www.pvhs.chico.k12.ca.us/~bsilva/projects/france/vich y/default.htm

http://www.fact-index.com/v/vi/vichy_france.html

http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_petain.html


South Korea:

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/ks__indx.html

http://www.concourt.am/wwconst/constit/korea/korea--e.htm


US War Fatalities:

http://www.libraryspot.com/lists/listwars.htm

http://hilltop.bradley.edu/~dannehl/pls208/208wft.htm


20TH Century Fatalities:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm


American Imperialism:

http://www.iraqischools.com/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 09, 2004, 02:51:47 PM
Richard Clarke and Rwanda

http://www.rwanda.net/english/News/2004/news042004/news04212 004.htm
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 03:21:34 PM
Damn You Gideon!!!

You can't continue to just post links that are apropos, poignant and well researched and thorough with hopes to clarify and educate....now this is your last warning...

You are either going to yeild to wild accusations or....

or....

well...

you


damn you....

good work

Maybe I'm just fukked up because I get to see and talk to a lot of these ding dongs....in far away places....

lemme nough...

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 03:53:06 PM
Well damn, now Gideon has me looking around:

http://www.gideonstrauss.com/

Oh boy....

Anyway that's what happens when you come to this damn forum....from the techies....to the low down depths of the saloon....

You get....

Worldwide Access to.....

Technical and Artistic Expertise...

Accoustic, Electronic and Physics Theory...

Product Info...

Humor....

Analysis and Counseling...

Character development....

To meet chuckleheads everywhere...

All in one place.....

And all I wanted to know a year and a half ago was how to mic a fukken drum set...

Damn all of you....


TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 04:59:53 PM
you forgot to mention


The Cost of War in Iraq


This is the dollar amount ... and as such skips the intangible cost of making Bin Laden look a genius and motivating thousands of new Islamofascists to join him in terrorizing Americans this century.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 09, 2004, 05:09:39 PM
Cool Website!

Except with our government right now as always "and" not "instead of"

I think it's great that we can afford to do it all....

Hey um...does morality have a price tag?

Look how much it took to stuff Hitler and Mussolini and Tojo and Stalin and his ding dong followers and....let's see the government still gave me a wonderful free education....

Man I guess the point of that site is well....

pointless....

love ya...

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 09, 2004, 06:48:56 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 17:09



Hey um...does morality have a price tag?


Define morality.

As a guy who's tag asserts it's easier not to try, you have no basis, but go ahead anyway.




And Gideon, the Germans and Soviets and specifically the Japanese attacked US at Pearl Harbor.  Iraq did not attack US at 9/11.  The defense of democracy is one thing, the spread of it by aggression is another.

And the guy who did this, that Bin Laden, he's stronger then ever, thanks to our "free Iraq at ANY price" policy.

In fact we helped him even lately with our petty selfishness ... the Bush people were stalling on Fallujah so as not to mess up their job application, so al Qaeda moved out and is now spread around the area, strong as ever.  Major combat operations in Fallujah mean nothing .. we are losing the so-called war on terrorists.

Speaking of .. if this is a War, why do we not acknowledge Bin Laden.  The hypocrisy that we are at War, and that we do not negotiate with Terrorists or even respect his authority as their leader is pretty funny.



As for the 'price of your moral values'.  Do you think the terrorists will be beaten on the basis of our moral virtue or our military superiority?  See, they have their own moral code ... and it's in opposition to ours to a great extent.  And that fuels them.   So how many years of this will you find acceptable ... 2, 20, 200, 2000 ?

The price of arrogance is higher then the price of aggression for freedom.  Especially when justice and freedom is not happening in America right now.  Poverty, education, health care .. all of these things are secondary to Imperialism.  And that's "moral" ?

Is it moral to make Bin Laden seem a prophet by doing the dumb thing he said we'd do?

Is it moral to oppose a womans freedom with her own pregnancy and yet kill Iraqi civilians by the 10s of thousands in a war of choice, not one of necessity?
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 09, 2004, 09:07:38 PM
lucey wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 18:48...

And Gideon, the Germans and Soviets [sic] and specifically the Japanese attacked US at Pearl Harbor.  Iraq did not attack US...


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-17-iraq-wtc_ x.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/31/60minutes/main5107 95.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/08/yousef/

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108636/

http://www.spacedaily.com/2002/021225194032.y7c1p4vg.html

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/081399iraq-conf lict.html

http://www.historyguy.com/no-fly_zone_war.html

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/04/iraq.operation/

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref03.html#post
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 10, 2004, 01:21:29 AM
Gideon wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 03:07

lucey wrote on Tue, 09 November 2004 18:48...

And Gideon, the Germans and Soviets [sic] and specifically the Japanese attacked US at Pearl Harbor.  Iraq did not attack US...


 http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-17-iraq-wtc_ x.htm

 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/31/60minutes/main5107 95.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/08/yousef/

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108636/

http://www.spacedaily.com/2002/021225194032.y7c1p4vg.html

 http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/081399iraq-conf lict.html

http://www.historyguy.com/no-fly_zone_war.html

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/04/iraq.operation/

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref03.html#post




Oh,

So US attacked Irak as a retaliation to the FIRST terror act of the WTC in 1993...

interesting

And I thought it was to prevent the free world from Saddam causing a nuclear or bacteriological holocaust

Gideon, can't you just admit you voted for a president that has been constantly lying to you ?

GW has made your country poorer while making social injustice greater
GW has made the world more insecure than it was before the WAR

Facts

malice
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 10, 2004, 03:18:53 AM
Gideon,

should I start sending links to this forum that answer or offer a different slant to every single one of your article links? How 'bout 10 for each one of yours? It hardly seems constructive. Even after reviewing the Memri articles I have questions about the motivation behind that organization's choices.  Everyone agrees that in the run up to War after September 11th 2001, all America, including the press, looked for justification for striking back. I find that to be a fairly predictable response given the provocation.

You are doing a good job of directing us to resources that support your view. But those articles do not in my view answer the basic question.

Is the War in Iraq a sound policy decision? Are the long term interests or even the security of the United States being enhanced by these actions? Was this action absolutely necessary at this time? Originally, the justification for invading Iraq was WMD. A VERY GOOD reason, if it were true. The Bush administration made a case before the American people and the world which insisted that if we did not act now, unimaginable disasters would follow. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that when history is written about this period, it will show some very dubious constructions regarding the case of Iraq's WMD threat. Now the policy is Iraqi freedom, the removal of a horribly cruel dictator, Democracy for Iraq. But we have made some serious miscalculations in the early going and whether the freedom and democracy goal is ever attained in any way that is objectively quantifiable is still very uncertain. I wonder if there was ANY alternative way(s) we could have spent 200 billion dollars that would have produced a global result at least as satisfying as we have now?

Even if I suspend, for a moment, my deep distrust of Bush and the people he has working with him, to develop these policies, I still think we are in trouble over there and we have not seen the worst of it yet.




Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 03:53:25 AM
Man,

Malice, how you can draw those conclusions from Gideon's posts....It seems nothing could convince you....

You and Brian seem to have an opinion that will never waiver as long as the hatred burns, whether you are right or not is open for debate....

But

A) You have no facts just accusations

B) What are you going to do about it?

C) You'll never broaden your support beyond the fringe if you don't refine your argument beyond "I hate George Bush"

I certainly have been enlightened by the progressive thoughts prevalent in the two or three threads here....but your mantra defies reason....

The guy had chemical weapons.....this is a fact

He had ties to terrorists...this is a fact....

He paid suicide bombers in Israel

He was waiting to attack us....this is what W thought....I think it is a reasonable conjecture...

I think Bush totally did not have his shit together he was reading to school children trying to expand his Governership into a Presidency.  I didn't vote for him, most Americans did not vote for him...

The market crashed in March of 2000!  The whole world caved in on the Bush Adminstration when those planes hit....

Maybe if the last President was more interested in doing his fukken job than banging interns and everything else he might have done something as well.....

Your point of view is based solely on accusations....

Evil?

C'mon

And you keep repeating yourselves although I see you lowered the casualty figure....

One example:  Holy Shit!  Gideon I had no idea wow this new evidence is shockiing even thought I hate Bush and he is an idiot and I think he fukked up this entire affair...

What I hear:  Everything presented to me is a lie no matter what because Bush is just like Hitler...

P.S.
We are not stalling in Fallujah......Bang Bang Bang

The foriegn terrorists and Saddamn fanatics have guns. You might have seen it on the news....

I think the international reality and the historical scope of this argument is begining to eclipse the left.....fukk, like the cold war did...

The same players in Hollywood and the ding dong apologists don't really talk about the cold war much.... they don't revel in Poland's freedom...some of them just dare to talk about the corruption in Russia....anybody been to Estonia lately....

Speaking of close--mindedness:  What right do we have to send Iraqi school children the message of freedom for the next 1000 years?

But it doesn't matter, because you haven't addressed virtually anything in the last 20 posts by anyone dissenting you views on this issue...

Someone completely destroys most of the positions all these cats at the beginning of this thread (who have since bailed and gone back to the Barbara Streisand site) put forth and we are down to the nitty gritty and they well might have moved on to more fertile ground like arguing with high school students or something....

I mean where are you guys?

Gideon's guns are white hot and the only retort is the mantra...

Malice: the market crashed before Bush came into office...

The Dollar is at an all time low...shh! we are exporting...

He never vetoed a single thing...I thought you guys liked entitlements....please help me understand...

What is more insecure?  The World Trade Center or rounding these ding dongs up...

The other candidate called it the wrong war after voting for it.....incredible!



Malice, people in Kurdish villages name their children after our government figures...Like Dick Cheney Muhammed....

Helmut Kohl never forgot the American generostiy when he was a child....

That whole region over there is waiting for freedom....it's very clear....

Maybe we could meet halfway here?

Tell me about it...

Love yas

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:07:40 AM
Hey Wyn,

Great post...The redirection from WMD to Iraqi freedom is pretty alarming to say the least...

One question: Do you think that because the outcome is uncertain that this is a bad policy?

Oh sorry second question:  Who cares how much it costs?  How much did the Soviet detour to focusing on the real problems of humanity cost?  Please include posts on the costs in Central America....

Sorry Third Question:  We are already there!  Now what?

Finally, Gideon's links are used effectively in my view because he is challenging the blind assertions of this thread....I think they are totally relevant.

If I started a thread saying Bush was the greatest intellect and world leader of modern times I would expect the same,  the posts on this thread should inspire revolution....um except well....they're mostly hogwash...

Love ya

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 10, 2004, 10:28:32 AM
TIK,

Your ignorance is WAY behind the curve .. just too much to catch up for me.  And I have no respect for your sig line.

Yet I will offer a few things to consider with each passing phrase ...


Bush has never vetoed anything because the Republicans run the govn't and he has been paying back the campaign contributors.

I dont hate Bush, I hate lies, and I hate leadership that manipulates the ignorance and fear of a nation.   In the end, Bush is a coward, a failure of leadership, a sucessful manipulator of opinion, and an immature man in a BIG suit of clothes.  No hate there ... although I can see how you would ASSUME so, as you assume so many things; like that leaders are trustworthy, and everything will work out, and that this era is no different for America than any other, and that Clinton was to blame for 9/11 and that Bush is doing the right thing because it feels good to your sense of retaliation and superiority.

You also do not read carefully ... many times you misread my posts.  Bush is similar, yet he does not even read the papers, nor the papers from his own administration when they do not please him, he reads only the Bible and he is easily upset by people who argue with him (as was evident in the first debate) ... draw your own conclusions on the man.

I hate the policies.

I hate the manipulations by Karl Rove and his advertising firm that uses phrases that mean the opposite, yet feel good.

Clear Skies Initiative, Healthy Forests Act, etc.



I hate the usurpation of America by big money on BOTH sides, yet this administration has taken that to new levels, and brought the church onboard to boot !


It's interesting that the defenders of Bush have so far been a clear Bigot, a cynical expatriate whose signature line indicates a lack of commitment to change anything, and a religiously named poster who relies on links to misleading half-true ideaas, not his own brain's ability to form or communicate an argument.  Gideon reminds me of Bush pre Iraq, telling half truths and standing tall like a morally superior voice of reason.

Until we as individuals deal with our own baggage we have little hope of seeing the bigger truths and making good decisions of policy on matters this intense, this is the real dilemma.  So many of these issues are hot button topics for deep emotions inside of us that we are blind to the reality in front of us.

 

Bush and Co manipulate present day data for preset goals based on other thinkers using a corporate advertising model.    

As for his big ideas, he has no original thoughts ... the Neo Cons and his narrow interpretation of the Bible drive his policies, not GW Bush as a responsible and free individual.  This is a failure of personal investment and of real leadership.  These dogmatic and adopted policies are not good for America the Beautiful and not making the world safer, stronger, or richer ... either economically or morally or financially.

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 10, 2004, 10:46:11 AM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 09:53

Man,

Malice, how you can draw those conclusions from Gideon's posts....It seems nothing could convince you....


If you mean by "convince me": convince that GWBush is a good honest President, I'll have to admit that YES, you will have a hard time with that task, in all friendship Very Happy

Quote:


You and Brian seem to have an opinion that will never waiver as long as the hatred burns, whether you are right or not is open for debate....


Not hatred, not hatred ...

Quote:



The guy had chemical weapons.....this is a fact


Yes, obviously, US and UK sold them to him.

Did Saddam had them during the present conflict ?

no


Did he had factories producing them ?


no


Quote:


He had ties to terrorists...this is a fact....



Agreed

With Al Quaida ?


no



Quote:


He paid suicide bombers in Israel



True.

Is that the reason WHY GW Bush said he was going after him ?

no

Is that a good reason to kill hundred of thousands innocent citizens ?

no


Quote:


He was waiting to attack us....this is what W thought....I think it is a reasonable conjecture...




Conjecture are not facts. You cannot PROVE what was in GW mind (no pun intended)



Quote:


The market crashed in March of 2000!  The whole world caved in on the Bush Administration when those planes hit....



facts : http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Quote:


Maybe if the last President was more interested in doing his fukken job than banging interns and everything else he might have done something as well.....


That particular statement shows a lot of what forges opinion in US. You know, in France, our president are having heart attacks in bordellos, that never was an issue as long as they were doing their job, go figure ...

this is NOT a valid argument

Quote:


Your point of view is based solely on accusations....



Nope, on facts

Quote:


The Dollar is at an all time low...shh! we are exporting...



You are exporting, yes, but if the public debt goes on and on and the $ keeps going down, OPEP countries might want to make you pay your oil bills in
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 10, 2004, 02:19:34 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3989127.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3993265.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3875277.stm

http://www.afrol.com/articles/13617

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/news id_3014000/3014623.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03 /11/wirq211.xml

http://www.info-france-usa.org/news/statmnts/2004/antisemiti sm_stats082604.asp

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2003/12/21/ in_france_anti_semitism_burns_anew/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/02/world/main597565.s html

http://www.greenpeace.org.au/rainbow_warrior/bombing_of_1985 /intro.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1548/is_4_14/ai_5 5166471
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 10, 2004, 02:43:04 PM
I have no idea what you are saying Gideon ... maybe if you said something it might help.

My guess is that you are asserting France is the prime threat to world progress.  

That they oppose sanctions in Sudan because they are heartless and evil.

That France is Anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim and anti-Greenpeace all at the same time.

Makes sense with everything I know about the French!  They never stood for freedom or jusice in their whole history!  Just profit and destruction of values.

Let's demonize and marginalize them together shall we ...

And while we're at it, let's just assume the mouse is typical of ALL French citizens.

No prejudice or bigotry in that.

Hell, let's just say that anyone who opposes anything that America puts forward is evil, anti-love, should be improsoned, or maybe killed, or at the very least

DEMONIZED!  Evil or Very Mad
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 10, 2004, 02:45:44 PM
Gideon,

Although I love your style, and the fact that yuou provide me with a good 30 % of material I missed, I can't help but having difficulties to get your point.

Is it : US is not that far from France in their way of dealing with international terorism and crisis ?

We both got our asses kiked by Ho chi min ?

We both go our sorry asses kiked in Africa ?

We both got our lame asses kiked by muslims ?

We both tortured poor lads to get retaliation and informations (and on the top of it, we taught you how to do it)


Say something dude

Cause we ain't getting nowhere communicating like this ...


Friendly yours...

Your french ass kiked new buddy


malice
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 10, 2004, 02:47:58 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1291280,00.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchi ve%5C200410%5CNAT20041007a.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/10/09/20 03206180

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Hayden_051204,00. html
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 10, 2004, 02:55:19 PM
Oh,

And by the way

I started discussing in forums like this to help me understand and not starting hating american people while I was not understanding their international politics.

I ended making US citizens buddies I consider to be among my very best friends now...

So don't take this personaly, cause I don't judge you individually, and even your Dumb-ass prez is not by any stretch of imagination lowering the opinion I have about you as a great nation...

In fact

I know deep inside of me you will succed in finding a way out of this mess

as you always did


malice

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Wyn Davis on November 10, 2004, 02:56:10 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07


Great post...The redirection from WMD to Iraqi freedom is pretty alarming to say the least...


In my view this is more than alarming. It points to a basic and underlying misuse of power. A purposeful abuse of public trust and an intent to justify their actions by any means. Once a government is allowed to act in this way, all bets are off. If the governed stop holding their leaders accountable for their actions and instead allows those leaders to define and reconstruct reality at will, then the worst kind of abuses are not far off. I think we have seen the beginnings of these abuses in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and the Patriot Act. What is also very alarming and frightening to me is the continued manipulation of language to obscure and redefine issues based on mass marketing principles. That part of the Bush administration is truly Orwellian and scary.

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07

One question: Do you think that because the outcome is uncertain that this is a bad policy?


Of course not. However, those being governed and those being led into battle have a responsibility to continually evaluate the chances of success based on past performance. Most reasonable people can agree that someone who makes enough bad decisions or executes a good plan poorly, or relies on faulty information or who does not use available resources to make sound decisions, should no longer be given the responsibility to make those decisions. When chances of success become less than uncertain then it is time to do something different.

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07

Oh sorry second question:  Who cares how much it costs?  How much did the Soviet detour to focusing on the real problems of humanity cost?  Please include posts on the costs in Central America....


I'm not sure I understand your "Soviet detour" reference. I cannot see where any shift of resources from fighting the cold war to "Focusing on the real problems of humanity" has taken place. That aside, I don't think you read my post right. I did not say the cost in dollars is too high. Please read again, what I wrote. One thing I do know, the cost in every respect will be far greater than America ever imagined when this Iraq War started. But yes, the cost should always be considered. People and resources are real things, they are finite. For instance, regardless of how cruel they were or unsafe they made the world, the cost of invading the Soviet Union in 1968 was too high. I am not saying invading Iraq is equivalent to invading the Soviet Union, I only point out that cost IS a factor, always has been. Unless you really believe we are in the "End Days" and our only responsibility is to bring on Armageddon, then we should consider the cost. I never seem to get ANYONE to even consider what might have been done short of WAR when there is a will to spend 200 billion dollars or more on a given outcome.

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07


Sorry Third Question:  We are already there!  Now what?


I wish I knew. I wish I had a clear vision for how to correct this massive error. Sadly, the folks who are directing this catastrophe now feel they have Carte Blanche; A mandate, an ORDER from the American people to continue full steam ahead without even considering any alternate views. One suggestion that might help diffuse the situation in Iraq and put the whole discussion on a different footing is to set a date for the total withdrawal of American troops. At some point in the future, this WILL happen. Setting a date now might help refocus Iraqis more on rebuilding their country and less on fighting to get us to leave.

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07

Finally, Gideon's links are used effectively in my view because he is challenging the blind assertions of this thread....I think they are totally relevant.


I did not mean Gideon's links were not instructive or useful only that if I started to simply post links with other peoples analysis of these issues, THAT would not be constructive. If Gideon feels his position is best represented by these news sources, so be it. I don't however feel that pointing to the reports of various news sources equals being fully engaged in this discussion.

sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 02:07

If I started a thread saying Bush was the greatest intellect and world leader of modern times I would expect the same,  the posts on this thread should inspire revolution....um except well....they're mostly hogwash...


Revolution... hmmmmm... well, you are not here so you cannot possibly know the feeling on the street in the "blue" states. But after a week of seeing the Bush administration claim a mandate and and hint at policy goals that only two weeks ago they vehemently denied, the despair of those seeking his removal is slowly turning to rage. A country THIS divided can only lead to trouble. It does not look good for the near term future of this country.

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 10, 2004, 03:00:20 PM
Gideon wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 20:47

 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1291280,00.html

 http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchi ve%5C200410%5CNAT20041007a.html

 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/10/09/20 03206180

 http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Hayden_051204,00. html



Gideon,

this is my last post

quoting internot article won't help that much

I'm pretty sure that I can find an article where Bush Senior is getting a blowJob from Saddam Hussein Daughter if I'm spending an hour googling.


These food for oil stuff are old newz and I won't argue with you about that.

Question is:

WHAT DO YOU THINK DEEP INSIDE OF YOU ABOUT ALL THIS ?

best

PM me if you ever come to Europe

malice
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:03:35 PM
Brian....

I try to read your posts as carefully as I can....lol

So let me first say, that my signature since you have brought it up twice now...well....

IT'S A FUKKEN JOKE!!!!

whew...

OK, I think your last post, the long one, was clear, lucid, informative and very well written.

As an American I feel in the last election....as well as the last four or five we didn't have a choice.

I think when we were up against the Soviets we were in a world of shit....I think what we are up against now by comparison is very , very managable...meaning the terrorists...

Not like the real issues that go by year after year....untouched...like alternative energy and the environment

Obviously the whole situation could be run a lot better.

And if you are going to post arguments like your last post (the big one)  I would maybe just post something complimentary quietly consider my options to improve humanity...

But earlier in the thread all we had were wild accusations: Haliburton....The US is like Nazi Germany...what a bunch of bullshit....

Finally, yes I agree my ignorance is beyond the pale....

Thanx for clearing that up....

Your Friendly Idiot in the Fatherland...

TIK



Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 10, 2004, 05:32:43 PM
As for your sig line, I can't respect cynicism, it's too high of a price to pay for the state of the world  ... but I see your point.


sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 17:03


I think when we were up against the Soviets we were in a world of shit....I think what we are up against now by comparison is very , very managable...meaning the terrorists...

Not like the real issues that go by year after year....untouched...like alternative energy and the environment



So the Rapture is not a real issue?  And the fatalism of our President is not important?

And .. wow! ... the Islamofascists are "easier" than the Soviets?




Let's look at that ... the Soviet Union fell for reasons that make sense to anyone in the west ... the Ideology did not give the people what they wanted,  there was no Religious freedom ... and money was SORELY lacking ... and it dampened individuality and spirits.  It was anti-human in a sense as there was no individalism or ability to self-actualize.


Now the Islamofascists on the other hand are an ENTIRELY bigger problem.  

#1  Their religion is their politics, and their allegiance to that cause is highly motivated and highly motivating for individuals on all levels of the 'body politic'.

#2 They don't want money or capitalism or democracy or freedom, so no amount of suffering will sway them to give up.  In fact, it makes them fight harder when they suffer and are made martyrs.

#3 These people are like teenagers with rocket launchers, lashing out at the bad father, America.  Have you any idea how deeply ingrained this fundamental human anger is?  Ever been to or done any counseling?  How about counseling a million people at once?

#4 Everything we do fuels them and educates them on how to beat us at this game.  

#5 Every death they have IS the self-actualization of the individual.

#6 Our arrogant aggression makes Fundamentalism seem a better option to all the fence sitters in the new world we are forcing, even as good things are happening ... they are countered by collateral damage.

#7 We have fucked up the Middle East with lazy and/or irresponsible policy for 60 years and there is a always price to pay for irresponsibility. A big price, in this case.

#8 Since we don't take any blame for the ideological conditions,  or understand their position, or discuss it openly - inviting criticism of policy past and present, we make more mistakes that motivates more of the same.  We are in a national denial of Biblical proportions onthe whole matter.

#9 Bin Laden is WAY smarter than anyone wants to admit and is a step ahead of everything we do. Certainly a step ahead of Bush.  Are they still in Fallujah?  Nope, they saw the election delay and spread out.  Examples abound ...

Once they get our debt up a bit higher and knock the DOW down a thousand points with a terror strike on US soil, what then?

Could the USSR do this to us?  No.  Could any enemy evoke an endless and costly battle where the victories for US were fleeting and the victories for them were DEVESTATING?


No.

The USSR was never as tough as they seemed .. these people are.


#10 Even if we kill all but one (which is highly unlikely as they are spread out globally) more would come and the fables of Martyrdom will continue the battle on their side of it for all time.

and

#11 We do not respect our enemy




So please tell us how is this supposed War on Islamofascists easier then basically waiting for nature to take it's course on a bad economy and an unhappy population in the Soviet Union?

The Soviet Union was a forced political construct, doomed from day one more or less.  And we were more scared then we should have been. A Russian General was on TV recently detailing the degree of bluff they pulled off.  Thanks to JFK, a New England Democrat and Catholic who had a real military service record, we did not suffer the worst of that eras offerings.  Now if Bush were in then he would have created a Nuclear War.

Reagan and the Right did not bring down the USSR, it was crumbling from the get go.  To see it otherwise is American arrogance.




Islamofascism is a chosen religious zealotry with guns and suicide bombers included, similar in style to the Christian Right, yet differing is it's substance and practices by folds.  



We should be more concerned, far more.  And we need to be smarter, far smarter.  The Reagan policies that leaned into a crumbling USSR will only prop up a fledgling movement.  We're helping to turn a small band of successful terrorists into the greatest threat in the history of the United States with our 'free advertising' in Iraq.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:32:43 PM
Wyn,

Holy Shit!

All I can say is great post.....

The feeling on the street hmmm....

Don't forget the guys from Abu Ghraib are being sent to the slam, one by one...right down the street from me they are throwing the book at them.....

Um, this was an internal American Tragedy....I don't know if it's indicative of an attitude....it pales in comparison to what the rest of the boys do that aren't fukken psycho perverts....

Yeah I am not there to witness the local mood.  That mandate thing is obviously myopic....

I am really glad to hear what you and Brian had to say well, in Brian's last post anyway(grin)....

I have agreed in the past and agree now with your criticisms.  

I guess looking at this whole mess in a new light, I have to say it doesn't seem to be very intellectual to be upset about all this and then freak out because Americans didn't elect some total loser two classes away from the source of their torment...maybe that's what I can't understand....

Just think....

If America was presented with both your arguments on this page....hmmm.  But they weren't they had moveover.org showing Hitler bullshit and fat assed Moore firing out accusations based on fantasy...

So all I can say is, we better get are shit together....soon...

On the big issue of Iraq, I think it's sad that we had to do it this way, but unfortunately some significant players are still wathcing from the sidelines and have the nerve to criticize...

This is the only forum I am a member of but the politics portion sure beats the hell out of any other media alternative I have access to....

Thanx again for clearly stating your position....

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:41:06 PM
Malice!

Now hold on a goddamned minute there Frenchy!

Um, well,

I have to say I love the French people, I mean really...

I hope to tell you all my French stories over a real bier someday....not that French crap....

Um yeah,

So thank you for the kind words about finding our way out...I hope so to....a way that is best for everyone...

P.S.

We are gonna save the world...

Sorry you think Bush is a loser.....I would like to give Chirac and his henchmen a boot in the ass......

And, Clinton wasn't doing his job....

French Grindcore....the best there is...

Love all you froggies....

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:51:27 PM
Brian...

Are you sure your view of the Soviet Union isn't just a teensy weensy bit aided by hindsight?  It collapsed under it's own weight but let's look at the score....

The Berlin wall and Iron Curtain was a mother fukker!

A real mother fukker...

Um, Vietnam.....El Salvador....

All the fascist dictators that were on our side...

The enslavement of most of the world....

The threat of total nuclear annihilation....

Secret Police that murdered millions...

Gulags...

The Korean War....

Afghanistan...

Millions of people murdered dude....throughout Russia

Uh,

Hello

OK you are going to shit your pants...but I think we can clean this up a lot faster than we did the Soviet Menace...I mean like by next March....


That's a joke Brian....

Good Luck...
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 05:53:45 PM
Malice!

Sorry I missed accusing you of stretching it a little.....

WE (meaning the USA) Did not sell Saddam Chemical Weapons


HELLO....

UH<

Ya there?

Nice try Mike...(meaning michael moore)

Um

lemme nough

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 10, 2004, 06:00:42 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 17:51

Brian...

Are you sure your view of the Soviet Union isn't just a teensy weensy bit aided by hindsight?  It collapsed under it's own weight but let's look at the score....

The Berlin wall and Iron Curtain was a mother fukker!

A real mother fukker...

Um, Vietnam.....El Salvador....

All the fascist dictators that were on our side...

The enslavement of most of the world....

The threat of total nuclear annihilation....

Secret Police that murdered millions...

Gulags...

The Korean War....

Afghanistan...

Millions of people murdered dude....throughout Russia


Not hindsight, just knowing human nature.  The USSR was never real communism, it was worse ...  and even real communism will always fail as it does not include personal initiative and individual energy in the construct.

USSR was a country with idiological and militant leaders ... Islamofascism is a religion/political idiology of volunteers.

Defeating a political idiology is one thing ... defeating a rebellion of militant zealotry is another.

A small group of leaders in a large country is one thing ... a band of equally motivated and empowered fighters is another.

A majority population that is enslaved by a system they do not enjoy is one thing ... a population that chooses it's destiny is another.




Look at it like this ... will there always be the Christian Right?  Yes or No.

Yes.

And if the evil liberals killed all but one .. would there be more soon?  

Yes.

And will the stories of the survivors motivate the new devotees?

Yes.

Is there an end to faith?

No.



It's simple physics ... where we cannot extinguish a fire we must CONTAIN, not INFLAME.

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Geetar on November 10, 2004, 06:14:01 PM
lucey wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 17:32




And .. wow! ... the Islamofascists are "easier" than the Soviets?

Let's look at that ... the Soviet Union fell for reasons that make sense to anyone in the west ... the Ideology did not give the people what they wanted,  there was no Religious freedom ... and money was SORELY lacking ... and it dampened individuality and spirits.  It was anti-human in a sense as there was no individalism or ability to self-actualize.


Now the Islamofascists on the other hand are an ENTIRELY bigger problem.  


So please tell us how is this supposed War on Islamofascists easier then basically waiting for nature to take it's course on a bad economy and an unhappy population in the Soviet Union?

The Soviet Union was a forced political construct, doomed from day one more or less.  And we were more scared then we should have been. A Russian general was on TV recently detailing the degree of bluff they pulled off.  Thanks to JFK, a New England Democrat and Catholic who had a real military service record, we did not suffer the worst of that eras offerings.  Now if Bush were in then he would have created a Nuclear War.


Islamofascism is a chosen religious zealotry with guns and suicide bombers included, similar in style to the Christian Right, yet differing is it's substance and practices.  


We should be more concerned, far more.  And we need to be smarter, far smarter.



My wife is Russian, and I know how she feels (she has read this too and let's just say that we're of one mind on this). When Khruschev famously said: "We will bury you", most Americans thought he meant that the USSR was going to attack. He merely meant, in a fairly peasant-like sense, that the USSR would outlast the West long enough to see America buried by its internal contradictions. So much for Western (and above all, American) understanding of a differing ideology. Fortunately, and mostly due to the factors you outlined, Khruschev was wrong. So much for Russian analytical skills, too.  

But anyway, to cut to the chase........your analysis seems entirely correct. To imagine that these new enemies are as vulnerable or deficient in resources, purpose or patience as the Soviets is naive to a degree that defies understanding. They require little money to carry this fight on forever, their purpose is utterly beyond our meagre understanding and their patience is the patience of generations. Are any of you so naive as to believe otherwise?

Ah.....


Sorry, I forgot, so many of you are.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 06:34:52 PM
Yep that's me naive....

That whole cold war thing is so over rated....

MILLIONS OF DEATHS...

who gives a shit what Kruschev meant...he was a fukken thug...

It's like saying we misunderstood what Al Capone said....

I get to meet a lot of Russians just off the boat here in Europe and most of them big suprise are like everyone else....and um, they love freedom...

Um, yeah so I think we are gonna lick this Islam thing....sorry just being naive....go to Iraq and check it out...

I mean I know I am naive and not as well traveled or educated as you guys so please help me out here....

We need to start a personal insult meter....or maybe you think it doesn't matter how many you guys throw around...

lemme nough...

TIK



Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 10, 2004, 06:46:59 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 18:34


I mean I know I am naive and not as well traveled or educated as you guys so please help me out here....

We need to start a personal insult meter....or maybe you think it doesn't matter how many you guys throw around...



No insults were offered ... and travel experience was never the issue. His wife is Russian, that's all, so she knows what he meant and what we heard ... an intersting insight I'd say.  

Your argument fails to convince based on death numbers ... and by that measure we should have been in the Sudan a long time ago, not Iraq.   The deaths due to AIDS also come to mind.    Bush got on that bandwagon for a week, then cut the funding when no one was looking.  Maybe the AIDS medicines as-is are a profit maker for pharmeceuticals?  Just a guess.

If you're not making sense ... it's nothing personal.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 10, 2004, 07:09:44 PM
Hey Brian,

He didn't cut the funding on AIDS...

Bro,

I am winding down on this end but let me thank you and also and especially Wyn and Middleton for the clear arguments you posted...

The positions you both have totally opened my mind to a lot of things I never considered....I don't know if there is a point in going further or not...

My original argument which I am not going to re-read and I encourage you not to torture yourself either....

My orignal argument is that I do not consider myself a member of Nazi Germany in 1938 or 2004.  We never sold chem shit to Saddam and I wanted to refute the host of other unsubstantiated charges....

The White House is not the final word on the greatest country in the world...

I am definitely not a right winger...I was and am just frustrated by all the bullshit.  I am a patriot and will not see my country run down, sorry.

I learned so much in this thread and I still would not have voted for either one of these ding dongs.

I can only say that your points against Bush represent a real tragedy because the dissenting candidate was toting a shotgun and saying marriage was between a man and a woman.  He was aided by Hollywood losers and a freakshow of liars and hooligans.

I listen to NPR everyday and go to Foxnews.com and only see hopeless self-serving propaganda on both sides...

After following the last three threads that we are littering with posts I can only say that the information contained within was not disseminated effectively to voting public before the last election.  I concur with just about all of the factual info you and many others put forth and no longer feel the self-righteousness and fear relating to the subject matter...

I would encourage you to keep the faith and not lose hope because what the country needs is action and debate, and I believe there are millions of Americans just like me that only know about Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore....

Please don't be to hard on the Jesus Crispies, they know not what they do....

Gonna take a pause and reflect, nice talking to all you commie scum...joking...

Your ignorant, naive, isolated American cousin...

TIK


Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Geetar on November 10, 2004, 08:32:52 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 18:34

Yep that's me naive....

That whole cold war thing is so over rated....

MILLIONS OF DEATHS...

who gives a shit what Kruschev meant...he was a fukken thug...




The "Cold War Thing" seems a little confusing for you, perhaps? Just how many Americans did the Russians kill, exactly?


The millions of deaths were what Stalin visited on his own people (not Khuschev, who was definitely a cunning peasant...but not a "thug" as you so charmingly put it; he was a more tractable leader, largely opposed to Stalin's repressions,  who at least tried to talk to the USA, unlike his predecessors....but of course you knew that...............).

If you actually had studied this, you could have drawn a parallel between Stalin committing genocide, and what Saddam did within his own borders. But the truth which eludes you, and seemingly always will, is that this brand of fundamentalism has a global reach and global objectives, but without the limiting factor of rationality that kept the Russians at bay.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: OTR-jkl on November 11, 2004, 12:19:05 AM
Wyn Davis wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 13:56

However, those being governed and those being led into battle have a responsibility to continually evaluate the chances of success based on past performance. Most reasonable people can agree that someone who makes enough bad decisions or executes a good plan poorly, or relies on faulty information or who does not use available resources to make sound decisions, should no longer be given the responsibility to make those decisions. When chances of success become less than uncertain then it is time to do something different.

Huhhh...??? How did this thread suddenly change into talking about Jerry Jones, the Big Tuna and the Dallas Cowpatties?  
Confused  Wink
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 11, 2004, 02:33:47 AM
sixtiksix wrote on Wed, 10 November 2004 23:53


WE (meaning the USA) Did not sell Saddam Chemical Weapons




http://www.sundayherald.com/27572

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&am p;am p;node=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29&notFound=true



from Washington post

The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.


also from Washington post

Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.



from Sunday Herald

eports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs which oversees American exports policy reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.


TIK

It's one think argueing

but you will have to back up your affirmations with FACTS

I'm starting liking Gideon style a lot

malice
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 03:36:18 AM
Bro,

Why would the Sunday Herald report that anyone sold Saddam VX NERVE GAS!?!?!

When you research this, the major news oultets cite biological toxins sent by the CDC which oddly enough is still sending the shit out worldwide for purposes of research etc....

If you read this stuff carefully the accusations are shameless...the headlines are always "REAGAN KILLS KURDISH BABIES" and then there is nothing to back it up....

There is no evidence on this matter.  I don't know about the Sunday Herald but they are obviously wack jobs....

Dude if we sold people VX nerve gas I would be for armed revolt....I am with you on this 100%....but it's just not true...

The Sunday Herald brags about seeing classified documents....uh hello, like what? fukken receipts?

Issued to Saddam Hussein              12 August 1984

GAS, NERVE AGENT, VX,                  VIAL EACH 1000

Issuing Agency: Ronald Reagan Administration....

I Saddam Hussein am hereby issued the deadly agent, VX Nerve gas and promise to use it on Iranian infantry liberally and where I see fit.  I am also authorized by the President and Vice President to use it to quell domestic rebellions.  I further promise not to tell anyone about where I got it from....

Signature of recieving agent....


UH

HELLO

I mean it's fun to say it but I don't think it happened.....

So bro

You have to show me the facts...

Love Yas

TIK

P.S.  Malice I am not swearing at you because I really appreciate and like your style....I would definitely like to meet you someday.....

Repspectfully:  IF THE SUNDAY HERALD HAD CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS WHY IN FUKK WOULDN'T THEY SHOW THEM....
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 03:52:54 AM
JLH,

Well first off Kruschev was a fukken thug....

He had politcal dissenters executed, and sent to Gulags....

But you knew that....

Are you going to dispute that?

Are you saying because his body count is lower than Stalin's he is not a thug?

You in fact may be the one that needs to brush up on your history....

By your rational he's a hero for disagreeing with Stalin?

Um, So you are saying Soviet domination was held at bay by their rationality?

LMAO, sorry man I have to laugh at that...

How many Americans did the Russians kill?

Good question.  They single handedly caused the Cold War, which killed over 100,000....

Next Question...

Anyway, I don't see your point other than your inference that I am clueless....and I think we already have determined that anyway....

Good Luck with semantics...

I am outta here....

Love yas

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: malice on November 11, 2004, 05:17:31 AM
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/politics/418 6725.htm

government, associated press, Washington post...

You can denied evidences, but I might argue that your press sucks donkeyballs then

In the first link, there's a lot to read and sometimes inbetween the lines, but it's all there buddy

Weither you can or cannot stand the obvious is beyond me, but these are official documents worth examining.

happy reading

and I'll enjoy meeting you as well, TIK Wink


cheers


malice

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 07:27:02 AM
Thanx for the link...

I already read the Tallahasse article...

I will definitely take my time on the George Washingotn University site..  

Right now I am up to my ass in work and really enjoyed spending my time here the last few days.  I learned a lot...

I can almost guarantee that the GWU propaganda is hogwash as well, but I will take a look when I get some down time...

Thank you for taking the time...

Your friend and member of non-nerve gas selling nations....

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 07:41:39 AM
Ah shit man I need to get to work but I just looked at the first document...Document 21...

What the fukk does that prove?

It's fukken blank....lmao...

With Reagan's signature...

Fukk man I am ready to join the resistance with that kind of evidence....

I will read through the rest of it before it hits the recycle bin, but not today....Dude, if they had real evidence there would be no need for all the verbage....they would just come out with it and BAM! the shit would hit the fan...but they don't have anything.....it's all bullshit!

If anyone had evidence I would be outside the whitehouse as soon as I could get a flight.....I wouldn't be alone....

It's not true.....

But I am willing to research it just because of the seriousness of the accusation....

The problem with people like Limbaugh and National Public Radio and people who say "REAGAN SELLS NERVE GAS" is that when they get busted and totally stuffed and shut the fukk down....there they are the next week trying to pedal their bullshit....

They have no shame....

Please don't buy into it...

Working harder than my European peers....I wish...not on this forum for a while.....TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Geetar on November 11, 2004, 12:31:26 PM
sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 11 November 2004 03:52

JLH,

Um, So you are saying Soviet domination was held at bay by their rationality?

TIK



Subtle reading of what I wrote.  Too subtle to be understood, to quote Shakespeare.

No, that's not what I said. Read it again. Think about it.Don't say "Um" -  it interrupts the thought processes. You added the word "domination". That's the problem with reading and then injecting your own take on something into someone else's words.


Let's look at what I wrote.

 "limiting factor of rationality that kept the Russians at bay."

What does that mean? Simply that these guys are madder than a hatful of frogs, whereas the Soviets figured that if they nuked us, we'd do the same back; and since they had families and children like us, and were human beings with lives like us, they weren't prepared to fight to the last man standing. Domination is not what results from killing all your enemies AND all your own countrymen too.

That puts them in a different camp from what we're facing now.

As for Khrushchov, if you'd spent as long trying to understand his life and times (the times and the place being the key here) you'd see that the "thug" grew and changed over his life. He started as Stalin's henchman, and yet he spent the second half of his life exposing the crimes of his former boss. He paved the way for Gorbachev's reforms, understanding that the USSR didn't have a viable answer to the vibrant capitalist economies of the West. He was bitterly regretful of his lack of education and the fact that this disabled him in both his decision-making and his attempts to engage with the West in progressive dialogue. Could you have changed as much as he did, given the times and the place? Well, could you?

And what do you really know about the Soviet Union that you didn't get from an American textbook?
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 02:16:19 PM
Well officially I'm not here anymore, since we're comparing a Mesa Boogie to an Engl...

I wish I were as educated as you are....

Yeah a textbook that's it....nothing more....

In fact I'll be honest, my opinions are just what somebody told me one day....

Good of you to level the field...

UM

UM

UM



Your right, let's all have a sensing session about a murderous dictator....

I wish I had the courage to change as well....

So at least you would agree that it is a waste of finger activity at this point...since I trashed all your points and you are now resorting to more insults and condescension...

Later...


Really this time...

TIK

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Geetar on November 11, 2004, 02:20:30 PM
Whatever.

It's a shame, since you've demonstrated that you are capable of reason when you want to. I will not waste any more time on you.
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 11, 2004, 04:57:47 PM
http://www.quotesandsayings.com/nevillesp.htm
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 06:35:32 PM
http://www.engl-amps.net/engl-amps/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 11, 2004, 06:42:19 PM
I think most of the frustration caused on the net is caused by the fact that every single word can be nitpicked and.....

I live in Europe and am used to every crazy political bent....

Sarcasm just goes over better in person when you can convey nonverbally that you are concerned with even the most preposterous opinions because we are all here to learn...

I am genuinely sorry if I offended you...

I was too short in the last post....

But it's just because you are such a dumb ass....

joking...

see if it wasn't for the internet that would be when I lifted the bier glass to ya....

Love yas....

TIK

Really leaving the thread now....

honest...

Auf Wiedersehen....

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: mmazurek on November 12, 2004, 08:07:43 AM
Yeah, but what did you think about the two amps?

Metal I assume?

Mics, preamps, pictures maybe?

Soundclips even???
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 12, 2004, 09:06:17 AM
index.php/fa/368/0/

It was pretty cool really so we compared the Marshall SLX, the ENGL Powerball, The Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and the Randall RM 100...

The axe wielder and I pretty much agreed on everything:

Firstly a few statements so you know the context:

I feel that most people when they hear new amps compare to Marshall...maybe not studio pros but the general musician population....

For a great Marshall tone, which I feel is the best, you need....Jimi, Slash, Zack or an un-named talent like we have all met, and that person has to be one with the amp....meaning put the fukken time in...

The tests we did were all looking for a Death Metal sound and my bro from London is flying in today and we will test Blues and Rock tonight...

I can only afford one of the amps I already own the SLX


Let me say right off the ENGL was the winner.

The ability of the studio owner (me) to dial in any required sound for a novice player became immediately obvious....

The natural distortion on this amp fukken kills!

The sound could be a little darker for DM but that may be a matter of spending more time with it....

The Mesa Boogie is a fukken Monster!  HUGE BALLS!  It's also twice the price of the ENGL here in the fatherland...it also sounds like a fukken Marshall, I mean to say you need a real guitarist with an interest in sound to make it kill, and you can do that with a Marshall anyway....for like half the money....

The Randall is very interesting,  if you don't know already they have these removable modules for the RM4 and the RM100 that supposedly emulate many classic standards....

OK I am a dumbass and a drummer on top of that but I can hear the solid state output amp on the final stage of all the modules and I FUKKEN HATE IT!!!! But, I think that this system is a very good studio tool and final determinations should be made over more than just two nights....if you pick up the RM4 for five bills and some change I guess you can't go wrong....

So again this is from a studio perpspective and not a guitar player's....the ENGL beats the Mesa in ease of use and beats the Randall because the ENGL sounds fukken fantastic....

Hope this helps....

Would appreciate any tips....

Guitars used for testing included ESP, Gibson, and Fender....

Love Yas...

TIK
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: lucey on November 12, 2004, 02:14:44 PM

But have you heard the Maven Peel Ganesha ???

Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: Gideon on November 12, 2004, 03:08:18 PM
Ganesha
index.php/fa/369/0/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 12, 2004, 07:25:10 PM
I met a chick named Ganesha....

We slept together on our first date...

When I woke up she was gone, I went to the bathroom to brush my teeth and noticed that I had a red dot painted on my head....


FUKK

But when I scratched it off I won a free slurpy....

Love Yas...

TIK \m/
Title: Re: How Ohio was Won
Post by: t(h)ik on November 14, 2004, 03:35:33 PM
Malice....

What up man....so my bro from England is playing around with Reason software right now even though I always try to talk him out of it....so while he is fukken around I read some of the links you provided...

I have to say that reassured me instead of alarming me....

Bro, all the letters from the State Department constantly reiterate US policy on CW...they continually reference how they are concerned about his use of these weapons....

There is absolutely no evidence of US involvement.  There is nothing but a constant theme of everything counter to the accusation that we supplied Saddam with slime.....

Hey man, this is where you say "Goddamnit TIK you're so right, I didn't really take that into account.  I live in France and got caught up in the whole Bush hating thing, thank you for caring enough to straighten me out....merci...."

OK man, my pleasure, I hope you don't think I am being rude I just want everyone to be on the same sheet of music....

(grin)

With Love and Admiration...

TIK