Post by: bilco on March 31, 2006, 01:35:30 AM
Goals:
Songwriter Demos
Homegrown CD
What I Have Now:
DAW & Preamps:
PT LE 5.1 on a Dell PC
Basic PT plugins for EQ, dynamics, reverb
Digi001 w 2 stock mic preamps, 8 channels ADAT/lightpipe in, 6 analog line inputs
M-Audio Audio Buddy Preamp
Behringer ADA8000 w 8 mic/line inputs converted to digital into Digi001
Sansamp for Fender Pbass
Mics:
Shure SM58
Shure SM57
MXL603S
Rode NT1a
Audio Technica MB4000C Electret Condensor
Monitors:
Roland MA-8 micromonitors
AT ATH-M2X Headphones
What I don
Post by: Tidewater on March 31, 2006, 06:50:35 AM
You need an outboard compressor, at some point.
Buy ONLY the things you need, and learn as much as you can with what you have. Save money up, and buy very nice stuff that comes along at a deal.
Don't get one of everything, everything isn't the right thing. Until a couple years ago, most people had only seen ribbon mics in pictures.
RNC is a YES.
M
Post by: maxim on March 31, 2006, 08:03:22 AM
Post by: plughead on March 31, 2006, 10:13:00 AM
| bilco wrote on Fri, 31 March 2006 01:35 |
I am slowly getting some mics and other gear together for a really basic homestudio. I am having to get one thing at a time and have about $250 for the next piece of the puzzle. I keep waffling over what it is I need the most, because I need more than one thing (and I want a bunch of stuff that I probably don't need.) What do you think is the most critical thing to get next with the $ I have? snip... |
IMO,
Your budget is a bit too low to make substantial gains in any one dep't, except for an RNC (which I think is a good investment) - why not wait until you have a bit more to invest, and then put it towards something that will be a 'large' step up instead of just treading water? You have enough kit to be able to do basic home recording as it is - a $250 mic will not take your recordings to another level, and there are no compressors (save for the RNC) or mic pre's, and most importantly, monitors that meet your budget.
There is an upside tho: many people make music with less than you currently have, and limitations can be a good thing - there is no silver bullet for making great recordings, just experience, and being open to rethink things. That said, when you have the funds to invest, make wise decisions: buy ONCE - invest in gear that will hold it's value (good mic's/pre's/comp's/etc) or lose very little when you upgrade later.
Lastly - I agree with maxim: monitoring should be your first priority, tho that will more than likely cost substantially more than $250.00
All the best with it!
Post by: Vertigo on March 31, 2006, 10:36:15 AM
I don't recommend purchasing omnis if your room doesn't sound good or you have a low ceiling. Omnis are very room dependent, and any shortcomings in your live room will limit the applications that you can use them for. If your room isn't an issue, I'd look into building the omni's in the Tape-op article on this site. They're really good (I like them better than the ECM-8000's, which are also good), and they'll cost you all of $20 to build.
I third (or fourth) the RNC. Great unit and I don't think you can beat it for the price.
I also agree that monitoring should probably be your highest priority. I don't think that the Rolands or the headphones you have are going to put out any substantial low end. You'll probably need to at least double your budget for a decent set.
-Lance
Post by: Ashermusic on March 31, 2006, 11:00:54 AM
Post by: bilco on March 31, 2006, 02:41:32 PM
OK, I'll save for monitors and cables. I hadn't even thought of cables; there's some pretty cheap and old cables here for sure. I'll search the threads for monitor suggestions.
I may go ahead and get the RNC now although in my limited experience with plugin compressors, I'm not sure what I'd gain. I know I can compress vocals and bass going in through hardware, maybe 2:1 and compress it further if needed once it is recorded. But if I don't clip going in and I can accomplish the same thing with a software compressor, I am curious what the difference is. I KNOW there IS a difference b/c everyone recommends a real outboard compressor; I just don' have enough experience to know exactly what the sonic difference will be.
I have a pretty good living room with 12' coffered ceilings, so it's not a complete box. It's pretty lively though.
Maybe the $250 would be better spent on some kind of recording classes in Austin; the weakest link is really experience...., but I'll get there eventually
bilco
Post by: Fig on March 31, 2006, 02:44:59 PM
| bilco wrote on Fri, 31 March 2006 00:35 |
What do you think is the most critical thing to get next with the $ I have? |
Um.... experience with what you have will help you answer your own question.
If you are just wanting to buy a new piece of kit, get the RNC, can't go wrong.
In terms of taking your recordings to the next level - work with what you have and improve your SKILLS. Throwing more inexpensive equipment at a home studio doesn't make better recordings (or mixes, either).
The suggestions for monitors are good, but $250 won't make your situation much better. And I would say, if you want to improve your monitoring, improve your room FIRST. Again, $250 won't take you very far in that regard.
Save your money until you can get into at least the mid-tier stuff.
Meanwhile, as the amount to invest is growing, you should be using your gear as much as possible and trying everything you can think of and everything you read here and elsewhere.
Record, mix, re-record, re-mix, listen, listen, listen.
Take your recordings elsewhere, listen, listen, listen.
Compare what you recorded to what you think sounds good.
Think, listen, save money, listen, think, and then finally...
purchase.
What's funny is if you have listened hard enough and critically, you will be able to answer your own question.
Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of $200 pieces that you still can't make sound very good (or at least not to your satisfaction). Good recordings take much more than money.
$0.02,
Fig
Post by: rankus on March 31, 2006, 02:55:06 PM
I would spend the money on room treatment... the way your room sounds is the #1 most important thing...
Get some bass traps in the corners and damp things down a bit... you will see a big difference for a very low cost.
I recomend making your own bass traps out of rockwool or fiberglass covered with som cheap (black) cloth...
This falls in line with the other recomendations for monitors... you need to be able to hear accurately...
So I would say: Monitors and room treatment first.. then toys..
Post by: Bobro on March 31, 2006, 04:02:32 PM
| bilco wrote on Fri, 31 March 2006 07:35 |
... but a lot of the songs are just being built one track at a time against a click. Thanks, bilco |
IMO, while you're working on your room and saving money, find a way to flex your click.
The easiest way to do it is to clap and sing the tune through, or slap a guitar body or something, but if you're not up for that, a good MIDI program like Cubase will let you draw in tempo changes to your heart's content and use a virtual drum machine/sampler to play your click.
I realize that noone ever pays attention to these kinds of suggestions but somebody has to carry the torch for technology as it should be rather than as a feeble shadow of things past.
-Bobro
Post by: maxim on March 31, 2006, 09:26:28 PM
"Get some bass traps in the corners and damp things down a bit... you will see a big difference for a very low cost."
although it is a very "sound" suggestion, i doubt the roland "micromonitors" would generate enough bass to make a difference
fwiw, the idea of spending at least $750 on monitors isn't bad (so put your $250 away for now into a jar in the kitchen cupboard)
if you don't know what to do with a otb compressor, then it's not a priority
imo, save your bucks, and you can get a really nice compressor down the track, when you are at ease with one
Post by: bilco on March 31, 2006, 09:29:32 PM
I am going to look at the RNC tomorrow, pretty sure I will get it, a pop screen and at least one good mic cable and guitar cord.
Thanks again all,
bilco
Post by: Tidewater on March 31, 2006, 09:43:28 PM
'Mo Gumbi!', and Canare are very good. Stay with Western manufactured hardware. (expensive cable ends) The 'Pacific Rim' stuff is made cheaply, from molds, of copies, of molds, of copies.
Neutrik, Switchcraft... Neutrik... Neutrik..
M
Post by: Teddy G. on April 01, 2006, 09:41:40 AM
For 250 bucks I could nearly soundPROOF my studio..? Certainly I could go to the home center and buy alot of Armstong 2x4 foot ceiling panels and a box of long screws and fender washers and screw the things up on every wall - even partial "double layers" and "laminate" the stuff into the corners, about a foot deep!(I could even get the "drop ceiling" kit for some of the panels and help, there, too!) and at least deaden the room to some degree('Scuse the "low bass"...). Fact is, I'm not sure you can "buy" a decent bass trap(Even one?) for $250? Even if you can, you'll likely need many of them to be effective(Like cover your entire room with them???). Ah well... Maybe a "local" studio/sound designer person would "stop in" for $250, and give you some general knowledge of how to proceed on your room accoustics?(No, I'm not kidding!) If I had 250, I'd buy a new wireless keyboard and mouse for my computer and maybe another couple hard drives..? I can't think of any audio gear, perse, that I need, that I want for only 250 bucks..?
TG
Post by: Bobro on April 01, 2006, 02:53:00 PM
If it's a hardwood floor with some persian-type rugs on it you're in style.
Dead rooms are really all about editing and goofing around with sounds in a mix, not about sound quality.
If the money is burning a hole in your pocket, find a way to invest it in the music itself. That's my 2 cents.
-Bobro
Post by: bilco on April 01, 2006, 06:25:55 PM
OK,in spite of everyone's wisdom and recommendations, I got a pair of the KRK RP5 monitors today at GC for $255 total. I know, I know, should have saved up at least $600...... When I lose money selling these to upgrade to something better, you can all say "I told you so!" I hear weaknesses in them, but they absolutely blow away the micro Roland MA-8 speakers and the cheap headphones I was using. At least now I can actually hear the differences when I play back my A/B tests of the SM57 vs. the NT1a on my vocal and my Pbass with and without Sansamp. And more important, when I compare my mixes to CDs by Gillian Welch, Steely Dan, Todd Runtgren, etc., I can at least objectively hear that at this point, the weakest link is my lack of recording experience. Now I get to work on mic placement..... At least the Pbass through the Sansamp sounds great and the Martin recorded with the MXL603S sounds pretty good too.
I guess I'll read some books about acoustics and look at DIY bass traps and a vocal booth and I'll look at getting some better cables too. The RNC is still on my list. Building this home studio is like the Johnny Cash "one piece at a time" Cadillac, but its getting there. I'm not aiming to be a professional; it's more than a hobby..... more like an obsession or an addiction, but since I gave up drugs and drinking, I have to spend money and obsess on something..... I sure do love tinkering around with this stuff. Definitely more fun than my day job!
Thanks again for all your suggestions,
Go ahead and let me have it for getting the KRKs....
bilco
Post by: rankus on April 03, 2006, 08:38:01 PM
| bilco wrote on Sat, 01 April 2006 15:25 |
Thanks again for all your suggestions, Go ahead and let me have it for getting the KRKs.... bilco |
You did good! There is no point in recording if you can't hear, and now you can hear better than before.... A step in the right direction.!
But, I would plead with you to try hanging up some blankets on the walls next time you record your band... "just to see"
Post by: maxim on April 03, 2006, 10:41:10 PM
whatever the quality of your speakers, what's more important is your relationship with them
so go forth and multiply your recordings
Post by: Bob Olhsson on April 16, 2006, 07:15:06 PM
Post by: scottoliphant on April 16, 2006, 08:05:34 PM
Post by: brett on April 17, 2006, 08:30:57 AM
http://www.jm.com/insulation/performance_materials/products/ ci60b_precipitator_sg.pdf
It comes in 9 sheet bundles of 2'x4'x2" pieces. I doubled them up and made 9 panels from the two bundles. They cost $115. I then ordered 25 yards of flame retardant burlap from Rose Brand in NY. I chose a color that matched my room. That cost me $175.
You just double up the panels, and cut the fabric like you are wrapping a christmas present, and use a stapler to staple up the seems on the back. It took only a few hours. I placed them two high in the front floor to ceiling across the corners, one above the mix postion on the top of the front wall, and on the sides. Helped acoustics emensly. I am making more to finish the room. You don't want to cover up all the walls.
Do this first or nothing you listen to is an honest representation of what is there.
I made the mistake of putting up blankets as well and that messed up the highs. I took a good look at the real traps web site for palcement. http://www.realtraps.com/
And any further questions you can go to Ethan's acoustic forum
http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=26;hardset=0;start_point=0;DaysPrune=0
You don't need gear, you need to hear what you are doing.
Post by: bilco on April 18, 2006, 01:22:03 AM
My daughter has moved away and my son and I have claimed her bedroom as the control room/studio. It's 10'8" X 11'4", small and boxy, but I think we can work with it. The living room sounds pretty good for tracking the way it is, but I will be able to judge that better when I can listen back to the recordings in a room that has some bass traps and something in place to control the flutter echo.
Thanks again,
bilco
Post by: hargerst on April 18, 2006, 12:11:49 PM
Post by: bilco on April 19, 2006, 12:33:45 PM
bilco
Post by: rankus on April 19, 2006, 06:01:21 PM
I got two truckloads of these for a case of beer a few years back...
The source was the local "office furniture auction house".... They auction off repossessed office stuff like computers and desks, chairs etc. But when they go to clean out the offices they toss the acoustic dividers because the have literally thousands in a warehouse.... So that's when I show up with a truck and case of beer and offer to make a lot of them go away....
Just a tip.
Post by: danickstr on April 21, 2006, 08:42:54 PM
Sorry I couldn't resist. Diffusion is inexpensively accomplished by wrapping concrete tube cardboard with a burlap-like fabric. stuff the innards with old socks for bass trapping too. Cheap and easy. high freq. diffusion will make a difference in rectangular rooms.