Post by: Werewolf10 on January 18, 2006, 01:47:01 PM
I have tried a ton of plug-ins and a few cheapo outboard units. I have heard from many self proclaimed professionals that "all plug-ins are crap" and some that live by plug-ins. I have also heard from these same people that the only way to go is either a (great room) or a (lexicon 480).
There must be more to this so here's the burning question, How do you guys do reverb? and/or delay?
NOTE*****I am not a professional, well not in the sense that I make a living off of recording. I hope this doesn't disqualify me from Steve's forum.
Post by: wiggins on January 18, 2006, 02:31:08 PM
http://www.electrical.com/class.php?page=outboard
Every piece has a description.
Post by: scottoliphant on January 18, 2006, 02:31:57 PM
Post by: carlsaff on January 18, 2006, 05:50:37 PM
| scottoliphant wrote on Wed, 18 January 2006 13:31 |
since anything decent in my price range sounds like crap, i put up a room mic and mix that back in for ambience. the closest thing i've heard that I like in a plugin are the plate reverb UAD emulators, but still can't bring myself to use them. |
Convolution reverbs can be very good, as well (Voxengo's Pristine Space being among the best of them).
But you're on the right track with room mic-ing. Even if it's a bad room, it will at least sound real. And there's also the option of playing tracks through a speaker in another (perhaps better sounding) room, and mic-ing that ambience, as well.
Post by: jetbase on January 18, 2006, 06:07:49 PM
i'll share some tips i've learnt from experience to make artificial reverbs & fx sound more natural. firstly, the units i have at my disposal in my own studio & what i use them for are:
- TC M2000 (reverb, ambience)
- Ensoniq DP4 (reverb, delay, modulation fx, distortion)
- Yamaha FX900 (delay, modulation fx)
- Alesis Microverb III (reverb, delay)
- SIR reverb plugin (reverb, ambience)
as you can see i use mainly outboard units. this is because i run a mainly analogue studio. to my ears the SIR reverb is the most natural sounding, but when mixing i use only the outboard units due to the nature of my studio. here are the methods i use to make them sound more natural:
1. eq fx returns, roll off highs & lows, & also there is an area around 2k that i notch out which helps get rid of the "digitalness" of the reverb/delay. eq'ing the reverb/delay in this way allows me to use more without it being obvious & so creating more a sense of space rather than sounding like a reverb tacked on.
2. use ambient, or room, mics when recording & add reverb to these in the mix.
3. i use different reverbs/fx for different things (e.g. create a reverb for vox, a separate one for drums, another for guitars, etc) but use a little bit of the other reverbs i've used on each instrument as well. so on guitar i might have a specific reverb, but also a little bit of the drum and/or vocal reverb also. the result is more depth & a more cohesive sound.
4. occasionally i'll send a bit of one fx return into another effect (e.g. a short reverb into a longer one) for more depth. actually, i haven't done this in a long time.
those are my tricks. i have to say that i learnt these only after doing a lot of classical & jazz recordings in big spaces with only natural reverb & ambience (concert halls, churches, etc, even a winery!). once i understood how natural reverb sounded i was in a much better position to make artificial reverb sound more natural. the idea is to think of the space you'd like to put a particular instrument in, then create that space using the resources & knowledge you have... assuming you can't physically record them in that space.
hope this helps.
glenn
Post by: vernier on January 19, 2006, 01:15:40 AM
Post by: Werewolf10 on January 20, 2006, 12:01:57 AM
Post by: eightyeightkeys on January 20, 2006, 07:59:40 PM
I loved the SPX900 MKII "Stone Room" for rock drums, the MPX1 had a really nice silky plate for vocals, for example. I've never owned a 480L/960 though...so...Even the old LXP1 sounded great on drums.
For quite the long while, plug-in reverbs sounded quite good when you solo'ed them with a track, but, after you placed it in a mix you ending up losing it. Where'd it go ? The remnant was whispy, narrow - dimensionless.
But, that has changed in a major way. So, much so that I've sold off all of my hardware units simply because I wasn't using them anymore.
The TC Powercore is now basically my reverb "rack". Particular favourties are the VSS3 and Megaverb. The UAD Plate 140 is O.K. but a little narrow. I don't know...I just don't use it much.
Another interesting reverb, especially for lush, ambient applications is a new one called the R66. It does something the others I have don't.
I need a smokin' delay. Any ideas ?
The PSP Delay Pack, the PSP84/42 are very interesting but a little cumbersome to work with. Some of the controls are a little unusual and it takes a bit of time to get what you want . (Hey Anton it needs an update-something more "typical" with feedback - easy synch to tempo controls) But, you can get some really bizarre and spectacular delay effects.
Post by: Ronny on January 21, 2006, 12:36:51 AM
| Dave @ D&D wrote on Fri, 20 January 2006 19:59 |
Each reverb, plug-in or hardware, has it's uses. I loved the SPX900 MKII "Stone Room" for rock drums, the MPX1 had a really nice silky plate for vocals, for example. I've never owned a 480L/960 though...so...Even the old LXP1 sounded great on drums. For quite the long while, plug-in reverbs sounded quite good when you solo'ed them with a track, but, after you placed it in a mix you ending up losing it. Where'd it go ? The remnant was whispy, narrow - dimensionless. But, that has changed in a major way. So, much so that I've sold off all of my hardware units simply because I wasn't using them anymore. The TC Powercore is now basically my reverb "rack". Particular favourties are the VSS3 and Megaverb. The UAD Plate 140 is O.K. but a little narrow. I don't know...I just don't use it much. Another interesting reverb, especially for lush, ambient applications is a new one called the R66. It does something the others I have don't. I need a smokin' delay. Any ideas ? The PSP Delay Pack, the PSP84/42 are very interesting but a little cumbersome to work with. Some of the controls are a little unusual and it takes a bit of time to get what you want . (Hey Anton it needs an update-something more "typical" with feedback - easy synch to tempo controls) But, you can get some really bizarre and spectacular delay effects. |
KSP 8 is probably my fave at the moment, but Dave any fx applied to a solo track is going to be much more prominent when the track is solo'd. That's not a product of an analog or digital effect or a manufacturer's brand, but due to the dynamic changes on a a solo'd track versus all of the instruments in the mix, where the other track levels mask the fx tail of the previous solo'd track.
Post by: electrical on January 21, 2006, 12:39:11 AM
Reasonable simulation of room sound:
Quantec XLS, Klark Teknik DN780, one or two patches in the H3000.
Character reverbs:
Well-maintained plate, AKG BX20 spring, Great British Spring, EMT 250, EMT 251, Klark Teknik DN780.
We also have a Quad-Eight BBD digital reverb that is grainy and muddy as hell, but can be a nice what-the-fuck.
Post by: eightyeightkeys on January 21, 2006, 11:51:40 AM
| Ronny wrote on Sat, 21 January 2006 00:36 |
KSP 8 is probably my fave at the moment, but Dave any fx applied to a solo track is going to be much more prominent when the track is solo'd. That's not a product of an analog or digital effect or a manufacturer's brand, but due to the dynamic changes on a a solo'd track versus all of the instruments in the mix, where the other track levels mask the fx tail of the previous solo'd track. |
Ronny, I'm aware of that. And I agree it's not a digital vs analog thing because even my ol' hardware units were digital.
It's hard to explain, but, certain plug-ins just tended to go away in a mix even after compensating for gain, etc...
And not just the "body"of the reverb ,but ,dimension/width as well.
Anyway, those issues are a thing of the past.
Funny, my MPX1 has been up for sale for about 8 months. Nobody wants it ? Hmm....
Post by: cerberus on January 25, 2006, 11:32:52 PM
| electrical wrote on Sat, 21 January 2006 00:39 |
I'm not a fan of reverb, except sparingly, in well-chosen moments. I don't like the sound of artificial reverbs, but there are some that are good either for "character" or a reasonable simulation of room sound. Reasonable simulation of room sound: Quantec XLS, Klark Teknik DN780, one or two patches in the H3000. Character reverbs: Well-maintained plate, AKG BX20 spring, Great British Spring, EMT 250, EMT 251, Klark Teknik DN780. We also have a Quad-Eight BBD digital reverb that is grainy and muddy as hell, but can be a nice what-the-fuck. |
would you please offer some comments about how you approached "Blue Train" with Page-Plant? When I hear this track, it is a journey into my own soul... this is a heavy ambience track and yet it sounds more intimate to me than almost anything. I just read now that it was recorded at Abbey Road, so that rules out my adobe theory... and it does not matter what gear specifically to me.. i can't afford any of it, so what I want to know is how you approached this particular song.
...or the producers told you to do that one a certain way? although I think you really must have been an artist when you engineered this track You contend you are not, but unless someone else recorded and mixed "Blue Train" Someone is responsible for this, it is high art...I am "educated" and this track gets to me... it is very intentionally what it is.. technically, it is far a superior recording compared to the genre I think it most fits into: blues.
I find this album to be very uneven, I really don't find the engineering on even other good tracks to stand out.. if anything, the hard panning draws attention to the mixing decisons and to my own speaker placement. But Blue Train is.... way different in terms of the production style. You seem an artist for this recording. How many records have a bass with shape like this.. so much reverb... and such full yet clear 3D bass shapes... and texture one could almost see.. a perfect relationship to the kick drum and guitar...and no mud? This engineering is so amazing I could go on and on.
It is not just a specific set of reverbs or mic placements or pan positions. it is beyond this for me.. it works..it blows past my ear and brain and immediately straight to my heart...After all these years, I just noticed the unique sound on the kick drum, it is subliminal almost as if there are two kick drums, one you hear and one you just feel...(what the hell micing or compression scheme is doing that?) The production seems too complex to just point to reverb, or compression, or say it's just a great song and performance.. because we could say that about so many hit ballads.... that I hate. "Blue Train differs most from a typical modern rock ballads of that era, or this one.. or perhaps any era. Why is it so rare that music is even attempted that sounds anything like "Blue Train". Why is it a special recording to me? I will likely never duplicate it, but I think I could learn from the approach that was taken in recording and mixing this one track... To learn to use my own tools to help an artist better reach into the listener's heart, instead of just trying to always do the "technically correct" thing.
jeff dinces
Post by: electrical on January 26, 2006, 01:50:08 AM
| cerberus wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 23:32 |
would you please offer some comments about how you approached "Blue Train" with Page-Plant? |
It was recorded live in Studio 2 of Abbey Road. Beautiful, beautiful room. I don't recall there being any reverb added other than the room sound on this one. Maybe a little plate on the vocal. I won't remember without listening, and I don't have a copy at hand. Jimmy did the electric 12-string (including the solo) live, and I don't recall if there is any other guitar on it.
Jimmy, Robert and the band are responsible for everything you hear, and though it's nice to be complimented, I honestly don't think I can take any credit for you liking that song, other than not doing anything stupid.
The whole album was recorded (save a couple of tracks from an API at RAK studio) and mixed on a Neve VR. Not my first choice sonically, but if you don't use any of the "convenience" features, the sound to tape is fine.
The only compressor in the studio other than the desk VCAs (which I won't use except with a gun to my head), was an 1178. One side was on the bass guitar (well, on one mic of the two) in tracking, the other was on the bass drum. Robert's vocal was recorded on a Josephson C700, with a couple of dB gain reduction from a Manley Elop that I brought-in.
| Quote: |
I find this album to be very uneven, I really don't find the engineering on even other good tracks to stand out.. if anything, the hard panning draws attention to the mixing decisons and to my own speaker placement. |
I can't disagree there, though I don't think any of it is embarrassing. There were a couple of tracks that stood-out as sounding really nice in the end, and this was one of them. I also liked "Shining in the Light" and "Heart in Your Hand."
| Quote: |
Why is it a special recording to me? |
I can't tell you. I know the feeling. There are a few recordings that I have always listened-to in awe. "Hospital" by the Modern Lovers, and the whole "Fun House" album by the Stooges, for example. I sometimes feel like I've spent the last 24 years trying to make those records again, in one way or another.
If you scratch a dog's back, you occasionally find a spot where the dog seems overwhelmed by the experience and starts kicking his leg in the air, completely unconsciously, unable to contain himself with how good it feels. Sometimes what you're listening to finds that spot on you, and you can't get enough of it.
Post by: cerberus on January 26, 2006, 08:13:33 AM
jeff dinces
Post by: electrical on January 26, 2006, 12:17:28 PM
| cerberus wrote on Thu, 26 January 2006 08:13 |
Thanks Steve... The way you used a linked stereo compressor to process two mono tracks is amazing to me because I do some ducking stuff with stereo compressors in m/s, but I always throw away the "key" side. |
Sorry, I didn't explain myself. I was using the 1178 as two mono compressors, not linked.
Post by: Ryan Leigh Patterson on January 26, 2006, 12:39:37 PM
The best "ambience however, comes from well placed instruments and well placed room mics. I'm a fan of compressing the crap out of selected room mics, while I know that others may shun this technique. Put up a few room mics, be creative. I usually walk around the room and listen for different sounds and then put up a few mics.
Never discout well timed delays, I find that a well timed and carefully mixed slapback on vocals, guitar and even snares can really add a touch of ambience and space to a record.
Post by: SawCompressor on June 13, 2006, 02:39:46 PM
| electrical wrote on Fri, 20 January 2006 23:39 |
I'm not a fan of reverb, except sparingly, in well-chosen moments. I don't like the sound of artificial reverbs, but there are some that are good either for "character" or a reasonable simulation of room sound. |
Hi steve ;if you don't used the reverb;did you just use delay/eoch instead of reverb?How do you control the space of the sound.
My English is bad;if I have displease for you; forgive me ,please!
Thanks.
Ken
Post by: Neon Noodle on January 09, 2007, 11:55:14 AM
Post by: stevieeastend on January 10, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
REV 5
and the echo delay in DP
Post by: Tomas Danko on January 11, 2007, 05:46:52 AM
Logic Stereo Delay plug-in. It's actually very nice. You set it to roll off the lows and especially highs, set the same note values/tempo on left and right. Then you nudge one channel slightly off by using the groove parameter. (ie left set at 50%, right at 51.666% for instance). Presto, instant spatializer.
Post by: Mike P on January 11, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
I don't generally use much in the way of reverbs, but I've found that the TC Powercore Classic Verb and either the UAD-1 Realverb Pro or the Plate 140 usually do a good job of emulating the space that I need. I really need to check out the VSS3 and the other optional Powercore reverbs.
FWIW, I never use presets - there's always some type of modification and tweaking involved for me because the presets just never seem to get exactly what I need.
Post by: JDNelson on January 11, 2007, 03:50:47 PM
| Mike P wrote on Thu, 11 January 2007 09:51 |
For delays, I really dig the PSP Lexicon PCM 42 emulation (with the HF reduced). It's really close (if not dead-on) to the old rackmount Lexicon unit. |
Have you checked out their 608 Multi-Tap Delay? I just downloaded it a few days ago... haven't had a chance yet to fully put it through its paces but my intital impressions are this plug-in is great. I've been looking for something that can to that Echoplex thing in the box and this is it I think.