Post by: TotalSonic on June 16, 2005, 07:40:24 PM
Last month I cut the vinyl masters for the special edition four 12" record set of the new Foo Fighters double album that was released a couple of days ago - "In Your Honor."
The cool thing about this project was that the Foo Fighters producers were determined to have the LP version be cut to the strictest "audiophile" specs. They were referred to me on the recommendation of Bob Ludwig who was familiar with Europadisk's cutting services through many years of association. For this project Direct Metal Mastering (aka "DMM") was used. DMM, where a diamond stylus cuts into a layer of copper plated over a steel disc instead of the more usual sapphire stylus cutting into lacquer coated over aluminum, was the final innovation in vinyl mastering technology ever made by Neumann. DMM results in both better high frequency definition and lower surface noise, and because it uses the advanced VMS-84 pitch computer it also can give higher levels over longer side lengths.
This new release is actually 2 radically different albums - one of very heavy but definitely melodic electric rock, and the 2nd an "unplugged" acoustic release which highlights Dave Grohl's gentler side. I think it represents some of the best stuff I've ever heard from them and I also think it will probably surprise & win them a lot of new fans.
I received 24bit wav files at 88.2kHz for the Electric set and 96kHz for the Acoustic sides. These were pre-mastered by Bob Ludwig at Gateway Mastering in Portland, and as far as I know represent the same hi-resolution files that the CD masters were made from except for some additional de-essing he did so that they would translate better to the vinyl master. The goal was to transmit these to the analog world with the least amount of compromise possible. Here's where the SAWStudio workstation played an essential part.
most on this forum already know the following - but for those unfamiliar with the old skool:
In a vinyl record mastering chain two duplicate signals need to be sent to the lathe:
the first "preview" path gets sent to the lathe's lookahead pitch & depth computer which sets the height and of the cutter head and the spacing of the grooves dependent on the amplitudes and frequency of the sound,
and the second "mod" or "program" path - delayed by a half rotation's time (900 ms for 33-1/3 - 667ms for 45rpm) which goes from the cutting amps to the cutting head which etches the grooves into the copper.
Originally these two seperate paths were achieved by using a tape machine with 2 seperate playback heads and that had extra capstans so the tape could wind around the necessary length before reaching the 2nd playback head to achieve this delay. This was later replaced in most vinyl mastering facilities with digital delays. The problem though is that pretty much every hardware ddl out there (including the TC M2000 in our studio) is limited to 24bit/48kHz.
Enter SAWStudio. By using it as a tranport it's extremely easy to rout hi-res files at their full resolution to two seperate but identical outputs with one of the outputs appropriately delayed. Also critical to my choice was reliabilty - the copper blanks are very expensive to make so I had to go with an app that I knew was rock solid and wouldn't glitch out in the middle of cutting a side. SAW fits the bill!
So for this release the signal chain went:
SAWStudio ->
Lynx One (2) AES outs ->
Lavry Blue 4496 MDA24 (2) DAC ->
Neumann SP79 analog transfer console ->
Neumann VAB84 vertical ampliltude limiter ->
Neumann BTT74 acceleration limiter ->
SAL84 cutting amps ->
SX84 cutting head -> DMM
The vertical and acceleration limiters were set at the minimal thresholds possible to just achieve a trackable and distortion free record and to protect the cutting head and stylus without otherwise adversely effecting the sound. All other processors typically used in vinyl transfers such as High and Low Pass Filters and Elliptical Equalizers (which center bass frequencies) were completely bypassed to give as true to the source transfer possible. All sides for this project were cut at 45rpm to give the best possible frequency response, and least amount of rumble and surface noise. This limited the length that was possible to cut on the sides - which entailed making what was a 2 CD set into a 4 record set.
The levels were set to peak at approximately +2dBVU, which from test cuts I found to be both present yet playback completely distortion free, which for the longest 14min side on the Electric album resulted in 92% of available space used. All the other shorter sides were cut at this same level to maintain continuity. The Acoustic sides were sent to the lathe at 1.5dBFs hotter than the Electric album sides in order to achieve a better signal to noise ratio as they had been mastered by Bob L. with a much greater dynamic range than the heavily limited Electric sides. I think the Acoustic album stands out particularly as having some really gorgeous sounds.
One thing I did for the shorter length sides was use as little uncut space between the grooves (aka "land") as possible. Often cutting engineers will add extra land in order to space out the grooves evenly so that shorter sides cover more of the records surface in order to maintain aesthetic expectations. However the inner diameters of a record will always play back with more distortion due to tracing errors from the increased angle of the stylus. By keeping the land as tight as possible I was able to keep all the sides (except for the one long one noted already) to cover under 74% of available space pretty much eliminating any chance of increased tracing distortions for most playback systems.
Anyway - hope I didn't bore you guys with the multitude of details on this.
Essentially - I think the LP edition of this release - cut using great DAC's directly from the hi-res files with every bit of care possible - and perhaps subject to the "magic" that analog playback gives - has a definite chance of sounding better than the CD release which had to undergo both sample rate conversion and requantization.
The LP's are a limited edition of 5000 in a fancy embossed box and have 1 bonus track that is not on the US edition of the CDs - and most importantly I think the music on this release is really fantastic.
Hope if any of you pick up the vinyl on this one that you enjoy it and I'd be interested in hearing feedback as to how you think it stacks up against the CD version.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: mcsnare on June 16, 2005, 08:22:27 PM
Dave Mcnair
Post by: jfrigo on June 16, 2005, 09:31:23 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 16 June 2005 16:40 |
Anyway - hope I didn't bore you guys with the multitude of details on this. |
Heck no! This is the kind of in-depth geeky stuff we should have more of.
Post by: electrical on June 16, 2005, 10:09:47 PM
Was the full DMM process used (Deutsche Grammophon-licensed plating and pressing, fresh chemistry, etc.), or was it a copper cut with standard processing? I've never had the full DMM treatment, but I get things cut into copper whenever possible, and I particularly appreciate the lack of groove distortion. Your reduction of land space is effective on copper, but probably would not fare as well in lacquer -- am I right?
With the sides cut at 45rpm, do you need to make any allowances for depth as differentiated from 33 rpm? Did you need to use an elliptical equalizer or VAL, for example?
I've often wondered if cutters which were critically damped for 33rpm would "ring" slightly when used at 45rpm. I had been told that when cutting into copper, the stylus had more difficulty cutting the groove at low frequencies, and this required slightly different "tuning," whatever that is, for flat response. I often wondered if that might be one of the reasons the low end sounds slightly more extended at 45. Have you noticed anything you could measure in this regard?
Post by: Jerry Tubb on June 16, 2005, 10:29:42 PM
Post by: jason goz on June 17, 2005, 04:34:40 AM
A thought has just occured to me,When i master anything to lacquer i always do a test cut on a scrap lacquer which i will a/b with the source,When you do a test cut do you use a standard playback stylus for comparisons or is there a special dmm playback stylus,(Obviously the dmm cutting head and styli are different)
Jason
Post by: Ruairi O'Flaherty on June 17, 2005, 05:35:27 AM
.Congrats on a great gig,
cheers,
Ruairi
Post by: zetterstroem on June 17, 2005, 05:57:06 AM
Post by: zetterstroem on June 17, 2005, 06:09:04 AM
is this the one???
http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?cat=&sku =LDF8038-4
me wants to buy soooooon....
really need to find some place in the eu that sells it....... the price will double with the taxes applied if i buy in the us!
anyone knows any good links??? tried amazon.uk..... haven't got it
Post by: bblackwood on June 17, 2005, 08:20:32 AM
Thanks for sharing, and tell us more about the actual tech behind the transfer!
Post by: Chris Cavell on June 17, 2005, 05:53:59 PM
Post by: TotalSonic on June 17, 2005, 10:12:17 PM
| electrical wrote on Fri, 17 June 2005 03:09 |
The cut sounds like it was done as well as anyone could expect. Bravo. Was the full DMM process used (Deutsche Grammophon-licensed plating and pressing, fresh chemistry, etc.), or was it a copper cut with standard processing? |
All the copper master blanks we use are electro-plated in house in our own plating dept which is on the floor below our mastering studio. This allows us extremely tight quality control for this vital stage. afaik we're the only ones making DMM blanks in North America as we supply the only other user of DMM in North America that I am aware of. I believe there are 2 sources in Europe for DMM blanks though.
Plating is certainly a very vital part of the record making process - however in this case I can't comment on how it was done as Europadisk was only contracted to do the mastering. RCA had us ship the DMM masters directly to the pressing plant that does all their work so I don't know the details of how the stampers were made. I certainly don't see any reason why anyone would want to do 3-step process (i.e. master->father->mother->stamper) instead of just plating the stamper directly off of the DMM master (which is how Europadisk does all of our own plating) as one of the main advantages of using DMM is that it allows you to completely avoid two steps of plating that can potentially induce more surface noise or ticks and pops.
I have no idea what "fresh chemistry" is but I think it's important to note that to date the chemical process for electro-plating copper DMM blanks has undergone 3 major changes since the process was originally speced out by Teldec in 1982. Some of these changes were necessitated by being forced to substitute one additive that was being discontinued by a manufacturer with another - however some of the changes have also occured because they allowed some significant refinements.
One huge improvement that Europadisk was a vital part of in developing is much greater stability of the blank prior to it being passivated - in fact the blanks we make no longer need refrigeration prior to cutting yet still exhibit a lower noise floor than the ones made with the original formula.
| Quote: |
I've never had the full DMM treatment, but I get things cut into copper whenever possible, and I particularly appreciate the lack of groove distortion. Your reduction of land space is effective on copper, but probably would not fare as well in lacquer -- am I right? |
Well - since most of the sides were fairly short in length and I wasn't required to cut at the "hot" levels demanded for dance cuts these days - I certainly didn't have to go to extremes in order to keep the used side space down to well under 74%. Since I really didn't set things to "kiss" (where one groove just barely touches another) the settings I had would have probably been fine with a laqcuer master that was also using a decent pitch computer.
on a side note:
The VMS-8x pitch computers have 3 optional "land economy" settings that you can kick that allow you to get higher cutting levels even for extremely long sides . Essentially these settings tell the pitch computer to take more "risks" by making the changes at progressively quicker rates. With the "A" setting you can still get pretty hot levels to just "kiss" - but as you increase the land economy to the "B" & "C" settings the risk of an overcut increases unless the dynamic range is fairly low.
I know that Don Grossinger (who as anyone who has heard the Smile releases on vinyl knows already is The Man as far cutting LP's goes) actually cut something like well over a 40 minute side of classical guitar on DMM once through a well performed manipulation of these options (which probably should get him in the Guiness Book of World Records as he was actually able to finesse it so that the master plated scuff free!).
With this release I didn't have to bother using land economy though - I just kept it set to the tightest level I could easily put it to without having any grooves "kissing". For pressings of short sides oriented towards DJ's though I very often add additional land because I've found that many clients in this niche like to have the grooves evenly spaced across 80-95% of available space. In their case the demands of the scratcher/turntabilist or the buyer that judges the record by aesthetic expectations (i,e, feels uncomfortable purchasing a record that looks like it only has half the amount of grooves they think "should" be on there) wins out over concerns of keeping the last track on the side the highest fidelity possible.
| Quote: |
With the sides cut at 45rpm, do you need to make any allowances for depth as differentiated from 33 rpm? |
There really isn't any differentiation in depth allowances that I am aware of as being necessary between 33 and 45. Where depth becomes a bigger concern and needs occasional intervention would be for dealing with things such as areas where the phase isn't correlated, or for things like passages of high amplitude that are just all midrange, or for dealing with long sides cut at an average low level but that have a wide dynamic range that might be prone to scuffing when plated. Otherwise the depth computer on the VMS-84 is pretty darned good and usually I don't need to interfere with it's normal functioning.
| Quote: |
Did you need to use an elliptical equalizer or VAL, for example? |
Bob Ludwig made a very specific request to me not to use any EE whatsoever on this release - I think he just doesn't like the way they make things sound. For most of the release this didn't pose a problem at all - but there were a few spots where because the phase wasn't that well correlated that I had to kick in a VAL occasionally. One of these problem spots I unfortunately discovered in a very non-scientific way - i.e. on the first attempt at cutting the side the chip tube started dragging for a couple seconds ruining the copper. The Neumann VAB-84 we have I believe is the last VAL they manufactured and is a pretty remarkably transparent processor. I set it just to the minimal threshold needed per side for "safety and trackability".
| Quote: |
I've often wondered if cutters which were critically damped for 33rpm would "ring" slightly when used at 45rpm. I had been told that when cutting into copper, the stylus had more difficulty cutting the groove at low frequencies, and this required slightly different "tuning," whatever that is, for flat response. I often wondered if that might be one of the reasons the low end sounds slightly more extended at 45. Have you noticed anything you could measure in this regard? |
Hmmm... interesting question - but this isn't an area I've explored at all. Most of the sides I cut at 45 are for dance tracks cut with very hot levels. Besides a general small improvement in overall freq response for both the lows and highs I can get a bit more level before things start breaking up by going to 45.
One other tidbit I forgot to mention in the previous post: the diamond stylus we used for this release had less than 11 hours of cutting time on it (out of a potential of 200). The fresh stylus (no relation to fresh chemistry) can make a nice difference sometimes.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: electrical on June 17, 2005, 11:06:25 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Fri, 17 June 2005 22:12 |
I have no idea what "fresh chemistry" is but I think it's important to note that to date the chemical process for electro-plating copper DMM blanks has undergone 3 major changes since the process was originally speced out by Teldec in 1982. |
I had a conversation with a client once (very picky) and he had a copy of the original DMM paper. In it, there was a specified age for the electroplating chemistry (I don't remember if it was age or number of masters plated that was the determinant), and to get the DMM mark, the chemistry had to be "fresh."
I don't know anything about electroplating, so I don't know if this was a concern before the changes you mention.
In general, I had been led to understand that copper was meant to be cut shallower (compared to lacquer) when possible, possibly to limit the force exerted on the cutting cantilever. Is this true in practice?
And I agree with Bob Ludwig (phone the papers!) that all but minimal use of the elliptical EQ makes the low-end sound weaker. Sometimes, your hand is forced, though.
Post by: dcollins on June 17, 2005, 11:17:31 PM
| electrical wrote on Thu, 16 June 2005 19:09 |
I've often wondered if cutters which were critically damped for 33rpm would "ring" slightly when used at 45rpm. |
Huh. Never thought of it like that. Is the head really critically damped? Or "over-damped" mechanically, with electrical eq for flatness? Where is Horst Redlich?
It's amazing it works at all..
DC
Post by: TotalSonic on June 17, 2005, 11:56:42 PM
| Jason Goz wrote on Fri, 17 June 2005 09:34 |
Steve, A thought has just occured to me,When i master anything to lacquer i always do a test cut on a scrap lacquer which i will a/b with the source,When you do a test cut do you use a standard playback stylus for comparisons or is there a special dmm playback stylus,(Obviously the dmm cutting head and styli are different) Jason |
We just play back test cuts with standard playback styluses. There's a Shure (I forget the model # offhand) on the the arm that is on the lathe. If you're not careful it's a little easier for the playback styluses to get damaged from knocking into the metal so unfortunately replacing these things happens a little more often than with what would otherwise happen with "normal" use.
That being said - we cut reference discs into the same copper formula on 12" discs and thousands of people have played these back on a huge variety of turntables with standard styluses without a problem. Nice thing with copper reference discs as opposed to standard acetate dub plates is that you can play them hundreds of times without any degradations.
I also have in the studio a Technics turntable that I trimmed some of the plastic molding on the case off of so that I can play 14" mothers on it set up with a cheap Audio Technica cartridge that goes to a cheapie preamp as a "lowest common denominator" type of reference. Looking to pick up a few of the more commonly DJ used Ortophon cartridges also to swap on this thing.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: spjessop on June 25, 2005, 08:16:56 AM
I haven't had the privilege of hearing the Vinyl, but I bought the Deluxe edition on CD and would you believe it... The bonus DVD includes the acoustic album in 24/96! Both stereo and 5.1. It sounds wonderful on my modest DVD-A player, much better than the CD.
Post by: Ronny on June 25, 2005, 01:09:02 PM
Bored? Absolutely not, this is great stuff, Steve. I have some questions. Do you notice any difference in sonic quality by going at 45rpm over 33rpm, any change in the highs and lows like for example taping at 15 versus 30ips? Did BL, know when he mastered the vinyl songs that they would be ran at 45 instead of 33 and make allowances for this? Also, you touched base on tracking angles towards the inside of the disk, because 45's were typically smaller than LP's and the major difference being the outside of the LP between the two, does the stylus angle tend to distort on the outside of the LP, compared to the 45. IOW, is the angle a concern at both inside and outside of the large disk.
Seems to me that a tracking arm like a cd player would eliminate the stylus angle problem, I'm wondering why they haven't designed turntables with a cross member tone arm that remains perpendicular to the grooves, rather than one that arcs across the surface. Maybe they have, not sure, but wouldn't it be a better design?
Post by: dcollins on June 25, 2005, 01:29:46 PM
| Ronny wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 10:09 |
Seems to me that a tracking arm like a cd player would eliminate the stylus angle problem, I'm wondering why they haven't designed turntables with a cross member tone arm that remains perpendicular to the grooves, rather than one that arcs across the surface. Maybe they have, not sure, but wouldn't it be a better design? |
You're a day late and a Euro short! Google "linear tracking."
It's the groove velocity that gets you, though.....
DC
Post by: barefoot on June 25, 2005, 02:09:48 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 16 June 2005 16:40 |
most on this forum already know the following - but for those unfamiliar with the old skool: In a vinyl record mastering chain two duplicate signals need to be sent to the lathe: the first "preview" path gets sent to the lathe's lookahead pitch & depth computer which sets the height and of the cutter head and the spacing of the grooves dependent on the amplitudes and frequency of the sound, and the second "mod" or "program" path - delayed by a half rotation's time (900 ms for 33-1/3 - 667ms for 45rpm) which goes from the cutting amps to the cutting head which etches the grooves into the copper. Originally these two seperate paths were achieved by using a tape machine with 2 seperate playback heads and that had extra capstans so the tape could wind around the necessary length before reaching the 2nd playback head to achieve this delay. This was later replaced in most vinyl mastering facilities with digital delays. The problem though is that pretty much every hardware ddl out there (including the TC M2000 in our studio) is limited to 24bit/48kHz. Enter SAWStudio. By using it as a tranport it's extremely easy to rout hi-res files at their full resolution to two seperate but identical outputs with one of the outputs appropriately delayed. Also critical to my choice was reliabilty - the copper blanks are very expensive to make so I had to go with an app that I knew was rock solid and wouldn't glitch out in the middle of cutting a side. SAW fits the bill! |
Steve,
I don't completely understand the need for all this look-ahead delay complexity. It seems that one could just have an algorithm that models the signal path and stylus behavior, crunches the entire wavefile and then spits out a completely optimized control file (lathe control tracks). The audio signal and control signals would then run simultaneously.
I guess this delay system is necessary because the pitch computers are circa 1982? Are they analog computers?
Thanks,
Thomas
Post by: Ronny on June 25, 2005, 02:16:06 PM
| dcollins wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 13:29 | ||
You're a day late and a Euro short! Google "linear tracking." It's the groove velocity that gets you, though..... DC |
Wow, a bunch of them. Not real cheap either.
Post by: TotalSonic on June 25, 2005, 04:08:06 PM
| barefoot wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 19:09 |
Steve, I don't completely understand the need for all this look-ahead delay complexity. It seems that one could just have an algorithm that models the signal path and stylus behavior, crunches the entire wavefile and then spits out a completely optimized control file (lathe control tracks). The audio signal and control signals would then run simultaneously. I guess this delay system is necessary because the pitch computers are circa 1982? Are they analog computers? Thanks, Thomas |
Hi Thomas -
Well there are indeed softwares out there similar to what you are thinking of here such as the Zuma system - http://www.zumagroup.com/prod03.htm - however, unlike what you are detailing, our current system allows us to transfer directly from analog source without ever converting the signal to digital. It also allows us a faster production work flow in that we can do a direct transfer from DAT or CD-R without having to take the time to record or rip the tracks to DAW and pre-analyze them as you are suggesting here - and we still can do direct transfer at full resolution from hires sources already loaded in the DAW as I detailed above. So our little bit of "complexity" actually allows us a fairly simple system that is transparent once it is set up.
Also - the VMS-8x pitch/depth systems are truly excellent performers - not to jinx myself here - but I simply haven't ever had a problem with overcuts or tests that mistrack.
And hopefully not to toot my own horn too much here but I won a shoot out with against a very well known lacquer cutting engineer for the LP for the heavy-drone-rock band "Om." Essentially: the side was a single continous song of 23 minutes and the band was disappointed that the tests they had cut from the lacquer masters were "quiet sounding" as they being a heavy-rock band of course wanted everything "loud". The original cutting engineer advised them that they would need to split the side up and go to a double record set in order to get it any louder - but there budget didn't allow for this and they didn't want to break the continuity of the track. Through a bit of re-eqing with the Medici to bring some mids forward, a small touch of the RML Labs Levelizer, and use of the VMS-84's land economy options I was able to get the side about 2-3dB louder than the original tests and they ended up having me cut the masters to DMM.
So basically in this case: if ain't broke, heck, if it works real good - don't "fix" it.
However - if you'd like to develop a "no latency" lathe controller system I'd be very very glad to demo it out for you!
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: TotalSonic on June 25, 2005, 04:25:02 PM
| Ronny wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 18:09 |
Bored? Absolutely not, this is great stuff, Steve. I have some questions. Do you notice any difference in sonic quality by going at 45rpm over 33rpm, any change in the highs and lows like for example taping at 15 versus 30ips? |
To my ear there definitely is a little bit more extension of frequency response at both ends of the spectrum when you cut at 45rpm. High end also has a bit better definition and is cleaner. When going for maximum level when cutting at 45 you also have a little more play before things start breaking up. There also is less rumble in playback with a 45.
| Quote: |
Did BL, know when he mastered the vinyl songs that they would be ran at 45 instead of 33 and make allowances for this? |
The only allowances he made were for the lengths of the sides. The longest side in this set was 14min. with most of the rest of them coming in between 9-12min.
| Quote: |
Also, you touched base on tracking angles towards the inside of the disk, because 45's were typically smaller than LP's |
Just to clarify - these were all 12" records for this release. And a 7" isn't necessarily a "45" - you can cut 7" at 33-1/3rpm if you want to try and cram in more time - but it certainly doesn't sound that good.
| Quote: |
and the major difference being the outside of the LP between the two, does the stylus angle tend to distort on the outside of the LP, compared to the 45. IOW, is the angle a concern at both inside and outside of the large disk. |
Nope - the outside of the disk is where things will always sound the best on the master. In fact the master discs are 14" wide to allow both extra space for plating and to have a area to do test cuts. These test cuts can sometimes be deceptive as they are often the best sounding you can do to vinyl disc.
The only thing that is problematic with the outside diameters of the disc are issues that come in plating - i.e. if the plater is not careful with the back sanding on the stamper excessive force can often create surface noise in the lead in area. Also usually the outer diameters are more prone to scuffing (caused by the stamper knocking back onto the mother when being seperated or knocking back onto the vinyl when the molds open back up when pressed).
| Quote: |
Seems to me that a tracking arm like a cd player would eliminate the stylus angle problem, I'm wondering why they haven't designed turntables with a cross member tone arm that remains perpendicular to the grooves, rather than one that arcs across the surface. Maybe they have, not sure, but wouldn't it be a better design? |
I'm not that big of a fan of the sound of linear tracking as it sometimes replaces one problem with another. The big issue is that the diameter of the circle itself is getting smaller - so more angle to cover in the same amount of time no matter what the angle of the stylus is set against it.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Bob Boyd on June 25, 2005, 04:46:51 PM
I think one of the best things is the fact that I find myself wanting to turn it up rather than down. (Audioslave, anyone?)
Keep up the good work!
Post by: TotalSonic on June 25, 2005, 04:54:59 PM
| Bob Boyd wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 21:46 |
Steve, this discussion has been fantastic and I must admit you inspired me to order the records. They came in a couple of days ago and I've been breaking in a new phono preamp listening to them. How cool. Great job man. They sound really good. I don't think I've ever owned a 12" that was 45rpm but it's great. You should be pleased. I had already picked up the CD and now I'm wishing I had the hi res PCM to compare to. I think one of the best things is the fact that I find myself wanting to turn it up rather than down. (Audioslave, anyone?) Keep up the good work! |
Bob -
Thanks so much, great to get some good feedback on this from someone who can critically compare the CD to the vinyl.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Bob Boyd on June 25, 2005, 05:13:53 PM
Post by: TotalSonic on June 25, 2005, 05:39:48 PM
| Bob Boyd wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 22:13 |
Just to be clear, BL's work on the CD sounds great too. I really appreciate that he didn't fall into hyperlimiting. It's competitive but it's not overcooked. |
Without a question Bob deserves most of the credit for this one - to steal a line from Tony Mantz I was really just a "glorified tape copy boy" on this one.
I think Bob did an amazing job on the spectrum for the premasters - they sound really well balance and definitely as you noted make you want to crank things up.
As far as dynamics - it seems to me he took different approaches for the different albums. I really really like the Acoustic sides as while things are really nicely present they're also incredibly dynamic with very preserved wav forms and with very little squashing applied. Heck - these sides might even get Bob Katz applauding!
Based on the pre-master I received the Electric sides are definitely heavily limited and from the looks and sound of thing I think Bob used straight clipping rather than any digital limiter. For the level based on the sound he got from this I think he probably made the best choice as it definitely is pretty darned hot without as many artifacts as it might otherwise have.
Personally I would have gone for more dynamic levels for the Electric sides if I had been left to my own judgement - but from my understanding the level chosen for the pre-master was based on the producer's request for it to be in the current "competitive" range. It certainly is more dynamic than a lot of the heavy rock CD's being released these days though - the choruses all rise from the verses.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: barefoot on June 25, 2005, 06:16:11 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 13:08 |
...our current system allows us to transfer directly from analog source without ever converting the signal to digital. It also allows us a faster production work flow in that we can do a direct transfer from DAT or CD-R without having to take the time to record or rip the tracks to DAW and pre-analyze them as you are suggesting here.... |
Yeah, I can definitely see how that would speed things up. All my musical tinkerings are in-the-box, so I sometimes forget that not everyone has a wavefile at hand.
| Quote: |
...However - if you'd like to develop a "no latency" lathe controller system I'd be very very glad to demo it out for you!... |
Well, seeing as how you're trying to "zipper" future grooves with past grooves, that could be quite challenging. I haven't perfected that art of clairvoyance yet, electronically or otherwise.
Cool stuff you're doing Steve. Hope I get a chance to hear it!
Thomas
Post by: Level on June 25, 2005, 06:50:31 PM
| Quote: |
I haven't perfected that art of clairvoyance yet |
This seems it is something you plan to accomplish one day. When you attain it, do let us know. Inquiring minds want to know.
Post by: barefoot on June 25, 2005, 07:32:58 PM
| Level wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 15:50 |
This seems it is something you plan to accomplish one day. When you attain it, do let us know. Inquiring minds want to know. |
I'll let you know as soon as I know… which could be before I actually know...? Or would it be after I know but before it happens....
Post by: Level on June 25, 2005, 08:17:48 PM
Post by: Ben Hibbs on June 26, 2005, 07:41:28 AM
Thanks for all that info...
As someone who was brought up on CD's and only now getting into vinyl...and recording...wow...
I will probably never have the experience of cutting records...unfortunately...
But, at least the internet allows me to read about these things...
Thank you for making my day!
On another note, is this out in Australia?
Riviting stuff...Bookmark for sure!
Post by: Bob Boyd on June 26, 2005, 08:41:26 PM
Steve, this has got me wondering since I bought the "regular" CD - do you know if the Dual Disc is the same version that was SRC'd down for the CD or would it be the same 96/24 master you transferred?
Post by: Greg Reierson on June 27, 2005, 11:19:04 AM
| dcollins wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 12:29 | ||
You're a day late and a Euro short! Google "linear tracking." It's the groove velocity that gets you, though..... DC |
Not to mention laquer isn't cut that way....
GR
Post by: TotalSonic on June 27, 2005, 11:23:46 AM
| GR wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 16:19 | ||||
Not to mention laquer isn't cut that way.... GR |
ummm.... might be misunderstanding your post - but actually in essence a cutting head on a modern lathe is "linear tracking" in that it is kept perpendicular to the center point at all times and moves in & out on a fixed straight bar.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Greg Reierson on June 27, 2005, 11:38:41 AM
| Quote: |
ummm.... might be misunderstanding your post - but actually in essence a cutting head on a modern lathe is "linear tracking" in that it is kept perpendicular to the center point at all times and moves in & out on a fixed straight bar. Best regards, Steve Berson |
How come nobody tells me these things.....
So doesn't that create a comptability problem between moder vs. legacy vinyl and liner vs. angular tracking?
GR
Post by: TotalSonic on June 27, 2005, 11:43:39 AM
| GR wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 16:38 |
ummm.... might be misunderstanding your post - but actually in essence a cutting head on a modern lathe is "linear tracking" in that it is kept perpendicular to the center point at all times and moves in & out on a fixed straight bar. Best regards, Steve Berson How come nobody tells me these things..... So doesn't that create a comptability problem between moder vs. legacy vinyl and liner vs. angular tracking? GR |
Legacy lathe meaning wax cylinder?? Sorry if I confused you with my wording in my post with the use "modern" - I'm not actually aware of a lathe with a cutting head that is mounted in the same way as a standard tone arm. Wouldn't surprise me if there was a design for one somewhere in the depths of the patent office though.
Really the only compatibility problems that I am aware of in vinyl playback are the various eq curves used on 78's before the RIAA standard was introduced.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Chris Cavell on June 27, 2005, 12:04:22 PM
| Quote: |
So doesn't that create a comptability problem between moder vs. legacy vinyl and liner vs. angular tracking? |
I have a feeling that the affect of the variation in angle of the stylus (my guess is somewhere in the range of +/- 9.5 degrees from perpindicular for most consumer players on the average LP, mine is a bit different in that it is from 0 to 19 degrees due to an angle placed in the tonearm that makes the stylus perpindicular at the outer edge of a 12") is probably negligable compared to the affects on the linear velocity at a given point on the radius of the disc...but I could be wrong.
TS,
Wanted to say thanks. It's been an interesting read for someone who has never been involved (and probably never will be) in the vinyl cutting side of this business. Congrats on a job well done and a fine product.
Cheers,
Chris
Post by: dcollins on June 27, 2005, 03:06:55 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 08:43 |
Wouldn't surprise me if there was a design for one somewhere in the depths of the patent office though. |
Unless it's an "audiophile" design, it's all linear-tracking, nowadays!
| Quote: |
Really the only compatibility problems that I am aware of in vinyl playback are the various eq curves used on 78's before the RIAA standard was introduced. |
What about the compatibility of "cut with a chisel, played back with a ball?"
DC
Post by: Carsten Daembkes on July 06, 2005, 09:05:29 AM
today here in Germany.
It sounds unbelievably good, especially the acoustic part!
I haven't listened to the cd for a comparison,
but yo.. i am a vinyl junkie anyway..
THANKS a lot for all this info on cutting it, Steve!
Keep on the good work!
Regards,
Carsten
Post by: TotalSonic on July 06, 2005, 01:28:01 PM
| Carsten Daembkes wrote on Wed, 06 July 2005 14:05 |
I finally recieved the the Foo Fighters Vinyl today here in Germany. It sounds unbelievably good, especially the acoustic part! I haven't listened to the cd for a comparison, but yo.. i am a vinyl junkie anyway.. THANKS a lot for all this info on cutting it, Steve! Keep on the good work! Regards, Carsten |
Thanks Carsten!
btw - in more cool vinyl news - although not something I cut - there's a new limited edition Neil Young greatest hits 2 LP set that was done via a completely analog transfer - more info and review at
http://www.musicangle.com/album.php?id=325
&
http://www.neilyoung.com/archives/gh_technotes_vinyl.html
Neil's been an analog "purist" since the start and apparently he directly supervised the mastering and pressing for this one, giving the production crew major hassles with dozens of rejected refs and test pressings along the way. anyway - doing a simple 2 step process with lacquer master is a heckuva expensive proposition if you scratch the stampers! Cool that they went these extra steps - seems worth picking up.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: fu man on July 06, 2005, 05:34:32 PM
A quick question for you: in my 10 years in the industry I have developed a general preference for dance records cut in the UK over pretty much anywhere else (for the kind of music I play, this includes mastering houses mainly in the US, Holland and Germany). The cuts generally sound 'hotter' (obviously an essential for the DJ market), have better dynamics, a warmer, more solid low end and more open highs. Because it seems to be a geographical trend, I have always wondered if there a different standard that they use, a la the RIAA EQ curve?
I'm ordering both the vinyl and dual disc CD versions of the Foo Fighters album today, I look forward to hearing both the music and your work!
Cheers
Mike
Post by: TotalSonic on July 07, 2005, 10:36:32 AM
| fu man wrote on Wed, 06 July 2005 22:34 |
A quick question for you: in my 10 years in the industry I have developed a general preference for dance records cut in the UK over pretty much anywhere else (for the kind of music I play, this includes mastering houses mainly in the US, Holland and Germany). The cuts generally sound 'hotter' (obviously an essential for the DJ market), have better dynamics, a warmer, more solid low end and more open highs. Because it seems to be a geographical trend, I have always wondered if there a different standard that they use, a la the RIAA EQ curve? |
Hi Mike -
No, there isn't any different standard in the UK. I'd say that the Exchange & Heathmans in London both have a well deserved reputation as making great dance cuts - but this is a result of the care that their facilities have been made with and the experience of the engineers that work there - and the fact that some of the best dance producers have a long standing relationship with them so gain experience themselves in how to provide mixes that translate well to vinyl - not because of any geographical location.
However, provided with a good mix, I believe that the cuts that I (and many other US based cutting engineers) can without a question match or exceed the quality of cuts being done anywhere. Being in NYC most of the work I get is hip-hop, both for well known and underground artists, and perhaps this has me pegged as specializing in this niche by some, but I also deal regularly with house, drum&bass, house, techno, idm, etc. and feel equally comfortable in these genres (along with LP work for rock, jazz & avantgarde)
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: fu man on July 09, 2005, 11:48:27 AM
If the record label gives me my choice (which doesn't happen often enough, unfortunately) I prefer to have my cuts done at Masterpiece, they have a couple of guys who do awesome work. I have heard lots of good cuts from Heathmans, The Exchange and Loud Mastering as well.
I produce progressive house and downtempo, so maybe I'll try you out on one of my forthcoming releases.
Thanks again, take care-
Mike
Post by: Ed Littman on July 11, 2005, 10:16:18 AM
been lurking on this one.great stuff!
I just ordered both the cd & lp.
all are welcome to listen in my new room when they come in.
conact me off list if interested.
Ed
Post by: TotalSonic on July 11, 2005, 10:32:58 AM
| Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 11 July 2005 15:16 |
Hey steve, been lurking on this one.great stuff! I just ordered both the cd & lp. all are welcome to listen in my new room when they come in. conact me off list if interested. Ed |
Very cool! It'd be a great excuse for me to come down and check out the new digs - please let me know a date that you have people coming out there. It'd be awesome to hear it played on your J.A. Michell Orbe turntable too.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Ed Littman on July 25, 2005, 05:27:31 PM
The lp excellent. It has more depth & is less fatiguing at loud levels compared to the cd.
my concern is that the lp has so much surface noise & there are two strange peep sounds on the left then right side in the beginning of side one that are not on the cd.
any ideas of whats going on...
Ed
Post by: TotalSonic on July 25, 2005, 05:58:17 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 22:27 |
I've got both the cd & vinyl. The lp excellent. It has more depth & is less fatiguing at loud levels compared to the cd. my concern is that the lp has so much surface noise & there are two strange peep sounds on the left then right side in the beginning of side one that are not on the cd. any ideas of whats going on... Ed |
Unfortunately I do. I have been in touch with Michael Fremer from Music Angle regarding this release and he was very interested in reviewing it. However - he sent me an email immediately after receiving his review copies literally describing them as looking as if they were "packed by monkeys eating big macs for lunch" as they had everything from stains, scratches, fingerprints and grease on them - and wanted to know where they had been pressed. Well - they were plated and pressed and packed at 33-1/3 (aka Music Connection - which owns the former WEA plant's presses) where RCA has all their vinyl pressed right now. He got in touch with the head of Music Connection who was extremely concerned and stated that he would get Michael replacement copies from their own archive. As a further disappointment Michael forwarded me an email from a record distributor who has also had similar problems with about half the copies he received and who had to go through them to make complete good sets.
Which goes to show you that you can spend as much effort as you possibly can to make sure that everything is perfect in the mastering stage only to have it be ruined in the manufacturing stage.
Anyway - these things should NOT be acceptable on a new record - let alone on one where efforts were made to get it to the highest possible standard. I suggest returning them as defective for an exchange and if the store you got them at gives you grief for this I would contact Music Connection & RCA regaling them with your problem.
It's enormously disappointing to me that something I really pained over to get as good as possible has been sabotaged by shoddy quality control - and I'm sorry you had to get bad copies of this. c'est la vie.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Ed Littman on July 25, 2005, 06:14:14 PM
that's the inside scoop!
i can see miss handling attribute to the dust, clicks & pops, etc., but the beeps i mentioned sounded like a test tone of some sort. I'd be interested to know how that got in there
Ed
Post by: TotalSonic on July 25, 2005, 07:24:56 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 23:14 |
wow, that's the inside scoop! i can see miss handling attribute to the dust, clicks & pops, etc., but the beeps i mentioned sounded like a test tone of some sort. I'd be interested to know how that got in there Ed |
Is there a white-ish threading in the grooves where this happens? Could be noise resulting from scuffing damage if so. What you are describing certainly wasn't on the master or the test record that I heard.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Ed Littman on July 25, 2005, 07:49:30 PM
Ed
Post by: genericperson on July 25, 2005, 09:29:31 PM
i was about to offer my condolances on Europadisc closing. But you don't need any, because boy do you know your stuff!
When you break apart a big blob of legos, it's easier to see where the big pieces are. You're a "big lego", and I'm sure you'll have no problems making your way without Europadisc.
Not that I still play with legos or anything...
Post by: TotalSonic on July 25, 2005, 09:30:24 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 00:49 |
there's no visual sign of anything wrong, but a better description is that it sounds like a chirp two in a row. it sound like somthing from an electronic device not from damge to the groove. I'm more curious of what it is & how it got there than anything else. Ed |
Damage to stampers or pressings can indeed cause things like brief "chrirps" and aren't necessarily visible. Usually the very outer diameters is where the risk of these types of things are greatest. Of course I can't make a complete judgement without being able to check out the record you have and being able to compare it directly to the tests they approved and the master - but I can assure you that if there were any extraneous "beeps" it would have been picked up on when they made the initial test pressings - which had to undergo approval from the album's producers.
Has anyone else here who has picked up the records heard this on the beginning of the A side??
Anyway - sounds like you definitely should get an exchange for better copies.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Ronny on July 26, 2005, 01:23:18 AM
| TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 21:30 | ||
Damage to stampers or pressings can indeed cause things like brief "chrirps" and aren't necessarily visible. Usually the very outer diameters is where the risk of these types of things are greatest. Of course I can't make a complete judgement without being able to check out the record you have and being able to compare it directly to the tests they approved and the master - but I can assure you that if there were any extraneous "beeps" it would have been picked up on when they made the initial test pressings - which had to undergo approval from the album's producers. Has anyone else here who has picked up the records heard this on the beginning of the A side?? Anyway - sounds like you definitely should get an exchange for better copies. Best regards, Steve Berson |
Sounds to me like he's describing Telex tones, not sure what they are called exactly as they don't sound like typical tape tones, but I had a client one time that complained about chirps on some cassettes and asked me how they got there. They weren't on the cd's and only on 1 out of maybe 30 cassettes. I had no idea as they weren't on the masters that I provided for the cds or the cassettes. It was about 8 or 10 tones played extremely fast, like within 300ms or so and they went in an ascending order maybe 3 octaves. He called me back a few days later and said that they were tones that they used to sync and start up the Telex machines that duped the cassettes. Probably not related to the vinyl issue, but I thought that I'd mention it because his description fits the chirp tones that I heard on the cassettes. It's possible that they were longer tones that were speeded up by the high speed duping, not sure as I didn't talk to the cassette manufacturer, but they weren't supposed to be on there, that's for sure.
Post by: Gold on July 26, 2005, 05:30:09 AM
Post by: TotalSonic on July 26, 2005, 12:55:09 PM
| Gold wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 10:30 |
You really need a microscope to trouble shoot properly. I think what Steve calls "scuffing" I call "non-fill". Under the microscope you can see little bubbles or ragged spots on the top edge of the groove. Usually at the outer diameter of the disk and usually on the outer edge of the groove. It looks whitish to the naked eye. We call marks that happen after the record comes out of the ram scuffs. Either in the transport or the trimmer. |
I think we're pretty much on the same page but to just to clarify my semantics:
For me scuffing means the damage that occurs to the grooves when either
1) the stamper is seperated from the mother and the stamper accidentally is banged back onto the mother (usually occurs because of poor passivation, or the stamper being pulled off too slowly or jerkily, or too much passivation where the stamper just falls right off of the mother) or
2) the record slaps back onto the stamper during pressing after the molds initially pull apart due to the stampers not being adequately secured down on the molds (and more likely to happen on programs where there are sections where modulations are low and where groove depth is minimal)
Non-fill to me means the problems caused by improper temperature or bad heat dispersion on the molds or from incorrectly set cycle times leading to the vinyl not flowing properly and fully into the grooves.
I think on second thought that you are right in thinking this might be a problem with non-fill.
Both could lead to the problems that Ed is detailing but again as you said - it would help to have a microscope and the orignal parts to figure out the what/why/where/when's
I'm now wishing that RCA had pressed this release at Brooklyn Phono! - where obviously there is someone who cares about QC - because then I seriously doubt we'd have any of these problems ever. I think RCA probably just went for whatever plant was the cheapest and most "convenient" to them though, as they wouldn't even let me get a bid in for Europadisk to do the pressing.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Gold on July 26, 2005, 01:51:30 PM
| TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 12:55 |
I think we're pretty much on the same page but to just to clarify my semantics: |
Yes. We agree. Scuffing is when something bangs against something else. Non-fill is when the mold isn't formed properly in the heat cycle. If it's destroyed in the cooling cycle we call it "cracking" but we made that term up. Non-fill has that whitish look to it.
| Quote: |
I'm now wishing that RCA had pressed this release at Brooklyn Phono! |
There are only two presses here. We couldn't do an order that big. We would have turned it down.
Post by: Art of Vinyl on August 19, 2005, 08:34:23 AM
Release scuff occurs when, either because of horns or a molding-related issue, like flash slipping out of a gripper, too much flash, flexing stamper, record take-out moving around when the press opens, wet labels, bad centre-plate, not enough steam delay and many other possible reasons, the record slaps back against the stamper when the press opens. The release scuff may or may not sound - it depends if it just happens to be on the land and whether the track is very loud through that area. Generally, it's something you want to fix, which, sometimes, means polishing the mother on very loud sides. This obviously isn't necessary with DMM sides as the copper, while amorphous, doesn't ride up like lacquer as the chip separates.
Separation damage occurs when either the father slaps the mother during part separation after plating or the same thing happens to the stamper. If it's a two step (again, referring to lacquers since DMM is a mother) then the father is the stamper and the separation damage may or may not be audible - like to be audible with, say, a Van Den Hull stylus or something like that. If the mother has separation damage and it's all on the land, it may not look nice, but if it doesn't sound, it will probably be okay to run. If it's a three step, you might want to make another mother if there's no safety (and with run sizes what they are today, doesn't anyone still make safety mothers?) If the stamper has separation damage, it will appear as "stitching" at the bottom of the groove. That stamper should be tossed.
Non-fill can be caused by a goodly number of factors or factors in combination. Horns can cause non-fill. Too slow of a squeeze, material too hot, too cold, skinning, a draft on the bisquit cup (!), bisquit not centering in the press, not enough slow-squeeze pressure, wet labels (white non-fill at the ID areas), material too hard, material too soft, zones out of balance, leaking condensate - it goes on and on. Non-fill will sound like "frrrippp" in one channel similar to separation damage but sep damage will be at the bottom of the groove and more likely to be heard in both or one or the other channel. Since material is missing from where the stylus is trying to play, and since it's right at the land-groove juncture, it's very unlikely that a loud section will cover it up. Since it's variable from piece to piece, one can't just sample a few and make a decision - each piece has to be QC'ed through the non-fill area and the problem has to be corrected.
Yup, if you're anal retentive like me, then vinyl pressing is the business for you.
Post by: TotalSonic on August 19, 2005, 08:47:08 AM
Very nice to "see" you here - it's kind of like a Europadisk reunion. Very glad you're contributing some of your vast experience to this board also.
Are you still running Advanced Media? If so I might have some work for you guys sometime in the near future. If you could email me at sb at totalsonicmedia dot com your current contact info would be great.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Art of Vinyl on August 19, 2005, 10:15:53 AM
This business is something else. I almost feel bad for you. It's the ultimate addiction. It's like what Michael Corleone says in (the very bad, IMHO) Godfather III, "just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in..."
Honestly, if I could get my hands on a press or two, I would be very happy. Even for fun. It might be hard for people to understand the kind of pleasure that comes from knowing just what to do with the right equipment set up just so to get it juuuuust right - oh, wait a minute, these are mastering engineers! The difference is the sweat pouring down during June. And July and August. Oh, yeah - and September . . .
This site is a revelation - everyone sharing what, when I started out, were highly guarded secrets. You could go into Herbie Power's room (at F/W) and his rack would be covered with a black cloth while he was cutting sides. Here, it's like the Summer of Love for people with ears. Very cool.
Last thing - I've been reading through your posts and they're very interesting. It's a wonder you have time for anything else.
I e-mailed you prior, but I'll re-email you shortly.
One last thing before I forget - I read where you were summing: those were Jim's settings. I didn't agree (and in the eighties, one mostly got properly engineered masters from the majors anyhow) and generally were at 75/150, VAL on and didn't cut anywhere as near as hot as the modern era. I cut (yes, I) four sides (12" singles) for Madonna/Maroder and Laurie Anderson's Big Science and the other was Heartbreak, I think, both subsequently recut in production at Warner to lacquer (WEA) but both cut that way. Just to think of all the classic mothers that are in the racks there, trapped. They should go to the Smithsonian instead Pinz the nickel dealer.
Best,
Art
Post by: The Town Halo on August 19, 2005, 10:48:03 AM
The funny thing is that all Foo Fighters albums I own are strictly on vinyl! It started in '95 when I got the first album on vinyl. (Which of course, is still the best....it was all Dave Grohl, drums and all, before he started selling out)
I loved how the first one sounded, so I bought The Colour and the Shape on the same format. While not as good as the first, Grohl still drummed on most of the album, and there were a lot of great songs.....
I was horrified when the third album came out, and stayed as far away from it as possible. This is where they completely sold out. "Learn To Fly" sounds like any other terrible mainstream artist of the 90's (Third Eye Blind, etc.)......yuck....
One By One blew me away. I really believed they were finished after the last album. My girlfriend bought me the 2-record 10" vinyl set for Valentine's Day! The pressing is not as good as the vinyl cuts I have for the first two albums, but it still sounds pretty good. It's definitely their best album since the debut, as well as the first good "full band" Foo Fighters album, and a return to greatness for Grohl.
Did you have anything to do with the vinyl copies of the first two albums? You mentioned that you mastered the new album from 24-bit wav files....does this mean that the album was recorded digitally? Do you know if any of their album were recorded on an analog format? I don't see how the vinyl copy could sound as good as the CD when it's going from digital to analog. However, I really like "Best Of You" and planned on picking up the vinyl release, anyway (since it's kind of a trend for me with this band)....I'll let you know my thoughts when I do.....
Post by: TotalSonic on August 19, 2005, 11:26:03 AM
| The Town Halo wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 15:48 |
Hi, TotalSonic, thanks for posting that! |
You're welcome!
| Quote: |
Did you have anything to do with the vinyl copies of the first two albums? |
No I didn't. I'm curious as to who did though.
| Quote: |
You mentioned that you mastered the new album from 24-bit wav files....does this mean that the album was recorded digitally? Do you know if any of their album were recorded on an analog format? |
Dunno. It was all mixed to ProTools from what I gather though - the electric stuff was mixed by Nick Raskulineez and the acoustic stuff was mixed by Elliot Scheiner.
| Quote: |
I don't see how the vinyl copy could sound as good as the CD when it's going from digital to analog. |
The CD would have to go through both Sample Rate Conversion (downsampling to 44.1kHz from the orignal 88.2kHz and 96kHz mix files) and requantizing (going from 24bit to 16bit). How big of an actual audible degradation this does is certainly debateable - but to my ear there certainly is a small one.
In the transfer to vinyl master as stated previously the files were sent to the cutterhead at their original high resolutions using a great sounding DAC - the Lavry Engineering Blue.
Does this translate to the vinyl release sounding better than the CD release? Since this is such a subjective matter only you will be able to judge this for yourself.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: Ed Littman on August 24, 2005, 02:58:39 PM
"Unfortunate news about this album. there will be no replacement availalble. i'm just going to have to refund your order.
Apparently there is no way to tell if the original pressings have the error without opening the box set. So, our distributer has returned all of them and will not be offering replacements and there is no word of a new pressing.
I apologize for the inconvenience and disappointment."
well i've got the cd.....
Ed
Post by: TotalSonic on August 24, 2005, 03:05:54 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Wed, 24 August 2005 19:58 |
The unfortunate update from my retaler is as follows..... "Unfortunate news about this album. there will be no replacement availalble. i'm just going to have to refund your order. Apparently there is no way to tell if the original pressings have the error without opening the box set. So, our distributer has returned all of them and will not be offering replacements and there is no word of a new pressing. I apologize for the inconvenience and disappointment." well i've got the cd..... Ed |
That's a drag Ed, sorry you had to go through that. Apparently the folks at Diverse Vinyl - http://www.diversevinyl.com - did in fact go through their boxes of all of these and put together the best records out of each of them to make some clean sets for their customers. I'm not sure if you want to bother further with this - but if you still want to get the vinyl you might want to contact them.
EDIT: oops - just realized that these guys are in England. oh well!
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Post by: james glennon on November 11, 2005, 01:02:14 PM
I have had to wait to get replacement bass units for my Acoustic Energy AE1s, so as soon as I have done that I will give both versions a good listen to see if there is any difference.
I noticed on the deadwax of the US version it has Europadisk DMM SB and the number 82876 68038-1, the UK version doesn't have any reference to Europadisk but has the same matrix number.
Anybody got any opinions on this!
JG
Post by: JGreenslade on November 11, 2005, 03:52:22 PM
Having forked out for a pair of new drivers, the "buzzing" wasn't cured...(I assumed the buzzing was the coil scraping)
After checking the crossover assembly for loose components I conceded defeat and sent the speakers back to AE...
According to AE, my AE1s were the 2nd pair out of 10,000 sold on which one of the ports had come loose... They glued the port and there was no problem.
The foam does perish if you're on Series 1 or 2 - the S3 uses the newer foam compound that lasts longer (same as on the AE2 "Pro" - mine are pushing 5 yrs and the surrounds look as good as new).
Anyway, back to the Foo Fighters :-)
Justin
Post by: max cooper on February 21, 2006, 12:35:19 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 25 July 2005 16:27 |
I've got both the cd & vinyl. The lp excellent. It has more depth & is less fatiguing at loud levels compared to the cd. my concern is that the lp has so much surface noise & there are two strange peep sounds on the left then right side in the beginning of side one that are not on the cd. any ideas of whats going on... Ed |
I hear a few bursts of microphonic guitar feedback in the intro of the first song on side A.
I figure that's not what you're talking about.
I listened about ten times at increasing volume levels and I don't hear anything but the guitar feedback (Michell Gyrodec/Dynavector 10x4/Naim NAC72/ATC SCM 20 ASL's)
As for the surface noise, my copy is dead quiet. I've seen variation in smoothness (my vocabulary regarding such things is limited) from one LP to the next; I assume this has to do with the preparation (maybe the temp?) of the "biscuit" before it goes in the stamper, but it certainly does affect the noise level. I have one Kristofferson LP released by Columbia where the surface has the texture of an orange. My copy of "In Your Honor" seems really nice.
As for the appearance of the package, as mentioned elsewhere, I was very impressed with "In Your Honor".
Nicely done packaging.
Post by: Ed Littman on February 22, 2006, 08:35:36 PM
| max cooper wrote on Tue, 21 February 2006 12:35 | ||
I hear a few bursts of microphonic guitar feedback in the intro of the first song on side A. I figure that's not what you're talking about. I listened about ten times at increasing volume levels and I don't hear anything but the guitar feedback (Michell Gyrodec/Dynavector 10x4/Naim NAC72/ATC SCM 20 ASL's) As for the surface noise, my copy is dead quiet. I've seen variation in smoothness (my vocabulary regarding such things is limited) from one LP to the next; I assume this has to do with the preparation (maybe the temp?) of the "biscuit" before it goes in the stamper, but it certainly does affect the noise level. I have one Kristofferson LP released by Columbia where the surface has the texture of an orange. My copy of "In Your Honor" seems really nice. As for the appearance of the package, as mentioned elsewhere, I was very impressed with "In Your Honor". Nicely done packaging. |
Still not sure what it was. returned the lp set & unfortunately there was no replacement. a couple of other guys on the board heard it & had only assumptions as to what it was
Post by: giraffe on February 23, 2006, 01:34:22 PM
thankx.
Post by: Aussie0zborn on February 28, 2006, 03:48:16 AM
| james glennon wrote on Sat, 12 November 2005 05:02 |
I have just purchased both the US vinyl boxset (45rpm) and the UK vinyl boxset (331/3rpm). I noticed on the deadwax of the US version it has Europadisk DMM SB and the number 82876 68038-1, the UK version doesn't have any reference to Europadisk but has the same matrix number. Anybody got any opinions on this! JG |
Sounds like the UK version was not cut by Europadisk. If it was, I would suspect it would have both "Europadisk" and Steve's initials etched into it. The matrix number is the actual catalogue number which is often the same regardless of country of manufacture.
Post by: TotalSonic on February 28, 2006, 11:40:48 AM
| Mike L Papas wrote on Tue, 28 February 2006 08:48 | ||
Sounds like the UK version was not cut by Europadisk. If it was, I would suspect it would have both "Europadisk" and Steve's initials etched into it. The matrix number is the actual catalogue number which is often the same regardless of country of manufacture. |
Yeah - what I cut was all at 45rpm - and every side's matrix was signed either "Europadisk DMM SB" or "Europadisk DMM SBerson" - so they obviously had someone else cut new masters (presumbably to make it a less expensive 2 record set) for the UK 33-1/3 version. I'd be interested to know whether they transferred directly from the same high res files - I have a feeling probably not. Also curious as to who cut the UK version.
Best regards,
Steve Berson