Post by: marcel on December 31, 2005, 02:04:04 AM
A thread much like the several BAE vs API ones that came up when I did a search on this forum...
I'm shopping for a class A channel strip (preamp and EQ) in the Neve vein, for home studio use and to complement the API lunchbox/512/550 and UA 6176 options that my sometimes working partner owns.
I'm currently test driving the Great River MP-1NV and EQ-1NV package from a local shop, and it sounds great, definitely more 'modern' in its functions and EQ flexibility than the 1073. But it's pretty pricey, too, in the $4k per channel range, same as the new stuff that AMS Neve sells.
I'm considering the Brent Averill 1073 clone:
http://www.brentaverill.com/1073/
Which appears to be a pretty carbon-copy of the 1073's, with the attractive features of a DI input, phantom power and a PSU (all of which I want, and don't really have the tools or experience, or frankly the interest, to put together myself) for about $1400 less than the Neve per channel. And I can buy a single channel like this...
So... Has anyone used this product that could give me a little feedback? Does it sound like the 1073? Is the only price difference a result of that little 'N' stencilled on the front? Or am I gonna buy one of these and ultimately wish I'd bought a Neve?
Any input would be appreciated, I can't find one of these to try out anywhere around here.
Thanks,
Marcel
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 01, 2006, 11:22:33 PM
I own a X81 and X73 and just got the 609CA Limit/Compressor.
Stuff sounds great and Dallas Upton will take care of you if you have any issues.
Post by: Etch-A-Sketch on January 02, 2006, 06:31:23 PM
| marcel wrote on Fri, 30 December 2005 23:04 |
Hi: A thread much like the several BAE vs API ones that came up when I did a search on this forum... I'm shopping for a class A channel strip (preamp and EQ) in the Neve vein, for home studio use and to complement the API lunchbox/512/550 and UA 6176 options that my sometimes working partner owns. I'm currently test driving the Great River MP-1NV and EQ-1NV package from a local shop, and it sounds great, definitely more 'modern' in its functions and EQ flexibility than the 1073. But it's pretty pricey, too, in the $4k per channel range, same as the new stuff that AMS Neve sells. I'm considering the Brent Averill 1073 clone: http://www.brentaverill.com/1073/ Which appears to be a pretty carbon-copy of the 1073's, with the attractive features of a DI input, phantom power and a PSU (all of which I want, and don't really have the tools or experience, or frankly the interest, to put together myself) for about $1400 less than the Neve per channel. And I can buy a single channel like this... So... Has anyone used this product that could give me a little feedback? Does it sound like the 1073? Is the only price difference a result of that little 'N' stencilled on the front? Or am I gonna buy one of these and ultimately wish I'd bought a Neve? Any input would be appreciated, I can't find one of these to try out anywhere around here. Thanks, Marcel |
I'd be interested to hear Fletcher's take on the BAE 1073s. I use them all the time over at a studio in Van Nuys. Does it sound like a vintage 1073? Well, that's subjective... first find me two vintage 1073s that sound exactly identical!!! To me they sounded a little cleaner than the old gear. Maybe there is slightly less noise? And they are a little more consistent than the old gear. When I've used two BAE's in a pair they sound pretty much identical to each other... so doing stereo recordings with them is cool. Sometimes I've had problems with Vintage Neve preamps in pairs because one will sound different than the other. But I guess the consistency would hold true with any of the clones, not just BAE.
I got to go over to their shop in Sherman Oaks and picked up a couple of demo units. From what I was told, out of all the clones, BAE is the only one that has the exact same transformers as the originals. Actually they use all the same parts as the vintage units. Brent has been the "go to" guy for fixing vintage neve consoles around L.A for years. Over that time he's built up an inventory of all the original parts for the Neve preamps/EQs. So he just started building his own.
I don't know if they sound exactly like the originals because I've never done a side by side comparison. But I will say I liked them and was happy with their sound. Buy one and if you don't like it return it.
Post by: Geoff_T on January 02, 2006, 06:53:40 PM
| Quote: |
Well, that's subjective... first find me two vintage 1073s that sound exactly identical!!! |
Good point.... there were around 20+ updates to the circuits or parts listed components....
| Quote: |
From what I was told, out of all the clones, BAE is the only one that has the exact same transformers as the originals. Actually they use all the same parts as the vintage units. |
Well, unless they have a source on the original Marinair output transformers, nobody (including Neve UK and any of the cloners) is using the "exact same transformers as the original". Most are using Carnhill recreations and one uses what looks like a Far East import.
Post by: marcel on January 02, 2006, 09:47:39 PM
I realize that 'am I going to hate this?' is probably not a particularly productive question. I was really just looking for some feedback from those who may have used this specific product, as I am basically reluctant to spend this much money on anything I haven't tried or at least heard with my own ears. I, too, would be very interested to hear Fletcher's opinion on this stuff...
One thing still bugs me though... AMS/Neve 2x 1073 modules racked = $8750 (Vintage King's price, but give or take). BAE 2x 1073 modules racked = $4900 (direct from their website). If component selection is the same, where did that other $3850 go? That's a lot of money. In my experience, audio hardware is like most other things - you get what you pay for. Can anyone maybe comment on this?
Best, Marcel
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 02, 2006, 10:56:34 PM
my 0.02$
Post by: Fletcher on January 03, 2006, 07:46:35 AM
| Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Mon, 02 January 2006 18:31 |
I'd be interested to hear Fletcher's take on the BAE 1073s. |
I've never tried a BAE "N word redux"... but I have used quite a few of the BAE "API redux" modules. If that is an indication of the work, then I have to say I'd be pleased to own some [if I wasn't up to my armpits in all the genuine API stuff I could imagine].
| Geoff_T wrote on Mon, 02 January 2006 18:53 |
Well, unless they have a source on the original Marinair output transformers, nobody (including Neve UK and any of the cloners) is using the "exact same transformers as the original". Most are using Carnhill recreations and one uses what looks like a Far East import. |
I know of at least one company that has the correct laminations for a spot on rebuild of the Marinair LO1066 output transformer... surprisingly, a better version than the Carnhill's of today. I also know of one "cloner" to whom I personally sold several hundred units of original Marinair output transformers... so I'd say that cloner is spot on with their iron.
| Bubblepuppy wrote on Mon, 02 January 2006 22:56 |
The AMS/NEVE price reflects the overhead and Name (Neve) branding, Brent has less overhead so less cost. |
Excuse me Mr. Bubblepuppy... but how do you know who has what costs? Do you have some kind of inside information to which no one else is privledged? ...or is this conjecture? Conspiracy theory? Bar room economics 101?
| Quote: |
But once again I hope you look at the Vintech stuff, its very impressive. |
By what criteria can you make that statement? What have you tried besides and beyond the Vintech stuff? In what applications? A/B'ed against what other hardware marketed via "the N word"?
| Quote: |
I think the challenge is to buy well designed products and not pay to much for the Branding value. Vintech is still building their rep and they will be as known as BAE sooner than later. |
They are better known than BAE right now. They're getting pushed by every Banjo Mart in the US, and a slew of dealers in Europe... BAE has one outlet for their product and only satisfied customers who proselytize that product.
There are many experienced users [myself included] who have found absolutely no redeeming qualities to the Vintech product... but that is also why I originally felt it pragmatic to recuse myself from this conversation... however, with your constant plea for folks to "once again I hope you look at the Vintech stuff, its very impressive"... bro, I really didn't find it all that impressive no matter how much you might hope I would.
Peace.
Post by: compasspnt on January 03, 2006, 10:47:28 AM
As far as BAE, I have used a lot of their pieces, and in fact own a couple of the Avedis 312 mic pre's. Except for the (occasionally irritating) non-feature of lack of meter indication of any kind (not an essential feature, to be sure), I otherwise love these units. It is certainly well into the quality league of which API were the progenitor. I wouldn't mind at all having a BAE "N" pre (or that cool new EQ).
But then there's also the Chandler stuff, and the...
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 03, 2006, 04:27:32 PM
("Fletch" is short for Fletcher,i.e. "Bro" for Brother)
Excuse me Mr. Bubblepuppy... but how do you know who has what costs? Do you have some kind of inside information to which no one else is privledged? ...or is this conjecture? Conspiracy theory? Bar room economics 101?
I work for Belden/CDT Networking NYSE symb BWCC
(Oh for Marcel, our research Division is in Montreal)
so I do understand the value of research & development, advertising, service, product support, are all rolled into the final cost, how do you think these talanted people get paid?
Branding does effect value i.e "Drawmer 1968 Mecenary edition"
Need I say more...
AMS/NEVE has overhead, SAE expects its accusitions to be profitable.....Call It What You Want!
I wont bore you with a typical manufacturing mark up to cover cost like, research, healthcare, 401k benifits etc...but it is substantial.
I will say this, that one of the best values for the money is the RODE Mic product line, IMHO
They are better known than BAE right now
Brent Averil has been pushing his work for at least 7-10 years, I remember seeing his ads in the back of Mix Mag, same as David Marquette now MAL & Mercury Recording. So I have heard of Brent years before Dallas Upton & Vintech. I think Brent is better known than you think and rightly so.
By what criteria can you make that statement? What have you tried besides and beyond the Vintech stuff? In what applications? A/B'ed against what other hardware marketed via "the N word"?
Well I've used 1073/33115/ISA 110 orginal focusrite VERY TEMPERAMENTAL/Trident A Range/custom mic pre designed & built by Bud Wyatt & Jim Bach(martek mic pre consultants)/also I have MAL V74/MAL V77/MAL V72. So my criteria is subjective as is yours, but just as valid.
There are many experienced users [myself included] who have found absolutely no redeeming qualities to the Vintech product... but that is also why I originally felt it pragmatic to recuse myself from this conversation... however, with your constant plea for folks to "once again I hope you look at the Vintech stuff, its very impressive"... bro, I really didn't find it all that impressive no matter how much you might hope I would.
Hey "Bro" we in Texas (where Rupert Choose to live) respect Opinions but I've read your discussions w/Upton, I think you bring extra baggage to this specific topic "the N word"
And I would like to see a bullet point presentation on
"redeeming qualities", I'm curious on what redeeming means to you? And I have been impressed with the Vintech line, and I am not easly impressed. And Fletcher you have all ways impressed me with your candid points and knowledge, I value your opinion.
Thats why I monitor this forum, but I stand behind my recomendation of the Vintech product no matter who distributes it or not. And I remember a time the only place you could by a minimoog was a banjoMart (BrookMays) and well the rest is history.
And what you describe as ... however, with your constant plea for folks to "once again I hope you look at the Vintech stuff I submit I might be a lone voice of reason in the wilderness.
And Finally
bro, I really didn't find it all that impressive no matter how much you might hope I would.
The only hope I have for you is to live long and prosper!
ps* im sure i'll regret getting into this
Peace,Love,Dove,inscense,bells,lightshows,crashpads,dig-it, right-on and power to the people!
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 03, 2006, 05:47:19 PM
Post by: Fletcher on January 03, 2006, 07:26:15 PM
As for "branding" costing additional money; i.e. the "Mercenary Edition" stuff... bad example. The only compensation we get from our involvement with Mercenary Edition stuff is the small acknowledgement on the front of the unit... zero money comes in our direction from it [hell, I don't even get a free or even discounted unit].
The cost differential between the AMS/Neve and the Vintech stuff comes from the quality of parts and construction of the unit. Vintech uses a main circuit board to which all the components connect... AMS/Neve does it the "old fashioned" way the original modules were built... daughter boards connected via hand wired looms.
It is WAY more expensive to build things like that. I don't know how the BAE stuff is built because I've never seen one to look under the hood.
Any R&D costs on the 1073 side of things were more than recouped a decade or two ago... but the price of parts has increased significantly, and I'm quite sure the volume of current sales isn't up to where it was in 1976 [in terms of quantity of modules sold] which will also elevate the 'per unit' price of parts.
The only beef I've ever had with Dallas is his insistance that the "out of phase" party trick shows that his units are "identical" to original equipment... and that his recreations are far from faithful to the original product they are marketed to copy. I have no problem with the man, only with the marketing approach.
If Dallas/Vintech were to create a unique design then it could/would be evaluated as a unique design. This has yet to happen.
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 03, 2006, 07:49:30 PM
I have and will continue to be a fan of your insights and experince.
I do enjoy this forum, I learn something everytime I log in.
Post by: marcel on January 04, 2006, 12:55:38 AM
| Fletcher wrote on Tue, 03 January 2006 16:26 |
The cost differential between the AMS/Neve and the Vintech stuff comes from the quality of parts and construction of the unit. Vintech uses a main circuit board to which all the components connect... AMS/Neve does it the "old fashioned" way the original modules were built... daughter boards connected via hand wired looms... the price of parts has increased significantly, and I'm quite sure the volume of current sales isn't up to where it was in 1976 [in terms of quantity of modules sold] which will also elevate the 'per unit' price of parts. |
These are the kind of things that I suspected may be the case, although tarring the BAE gear with the same brush as the above may be inappropriate... Almost all the feedback I have seen regarding their API-ish stuff seems to be positive... I guess the only way I'm gonna know if I 'like' it is to try it out!
BTW, total vote of confidence for the Great River stuff... quality design and construction is unmistakable. I hear something in my head and turn a few knobs and it appears. Definitely worthy of its name.
Thanks again all for your comments and opinions.
I guess I just have option anxiety...
Best, Marcel
Post by: bc184 on January 08, 2006, 01:01:16 PM
| Quote: |
The cost differential between the AMS/Neve and the Vintech stuff comes from the quality of parts and construction of the unit. Vintech uses a main circuit board to which all the components connect... AMS/Neve does it the "old fashioned" way the original modules were built... daughter boards connected via hand wired looms. |
Our X73 features very high quality parts including hand wired Elma (same as on vintage Neve) input attenuator switches, custom dual concentric rotary switches with custom Clarostat potentiometers, equal quality transformers and inductors, custom machined aluminum knobs (quite expensive), and overall high quality construction.
Yes, Neve did in fact use daughter boards in their 1073 modules. These "daughter" boards as you put it, do facilitate very quick repairs in the field, but they also can lead to problems when the connectors become dirty or the boards get loosened.The sub board design can be a nightmare when shipping modules across country, as they often get dislodged from their connectors.
We chose to use a single motherboard more like the scheme used on the Neve 1081 module among others. I assume you agree with this approach because you endorsed the use of a "motherboard" type layout on the Mercenary Greatriver MP2NV, which is based at least in some way (according to your website) on the Neve 1073 module.
| Quote: |
There are many experienced users [myself included] who have found absolutely no redeeming qualities to the Vintech product... |
It’s strange that you would post something like the above quote when you have posted in the past (several years ago in a thread on your own forum) that you chose our X73 over a few different vintage Neve 1073’s and 1084’s to eq a vocal because the X73 had more frequency choices on the high shelving than the 1073’s. To quote you….. “I was pleased.”. I guess you must have found at least one “redeeming quality” in our gear. You’re really not in bad company Fletcher, there are many high profile recording engineers that find “redeeming qualities” in our gear.
I have offered on many occasions in the past the opportunity for you to do blind listening tests of our products in comparison with vintage Neve 1073’s and AMS Neve reissue 1073’s. I have offered to donate a thousand dollars to charity if you could consistently pick our modules out of a lineup of 1073’s (both vintage and AMS Neve reissue) in blind listening tests in a neutral studio with impartial parties attending.
The offer to conduct these blind listening tests is still good. I am open to suggestions on how to set up a test scenario where we could do both single track comparisons as well as multi track (as many tracks as practical) comparison tests. We can do these tests for charity benefit, as we have offered in the past, if you wish. I would like these tests to be about Vintech vs. vintage Neve and/or AMS Neve 1073’s, not because I want to exclude other manufacturers, but because you have consistently singled out our company in discussions on this topic.
As for the original question of this thread, I can say that I believe Brent Averill’s products to be in general, excellent.
Thank you,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio
Post by: Patrik T on January 09, 2006, 07:19:52 AM
http://www.vintagedesign.se
Has got Carnhill's and Elma's. And, in contrast to the ORIGINAL original - from what I know, has a few more fixed frequencies in the midband - 10 instead of six.
Very, very handmade, in Sweden, and the sound is great! It is all discrete with no IC's. I don't want to discuss how it compares to any original or others gear but all I can say is: If you want the transformer-dist - you have it. If you want electric bass to jump into position in the mix in the very moment of tracking the god-damn thing - you have that as well. If you want something to be DOMINANT - it can surely be arranged with a few dB's here and there with the eq.
It puts color to everything regardless what you do. No transparency there. Just what can be expected. It has got a true, almost stubborn, analogue feel and sound.
Actually - I think the box pretty much stand on its own feet and (according to other ears) maybe should be placed somewhere between Neve and API when talking about what the gainstage does to pick up various elements from various instruments. The sound has got flexibility, you can scent that it has been put together by hand, it's (until this very day) a little indie and not well-known brand and the price is human.
He (yes, I think this company is still being runned by one man only who builds everything by himself) also has the CA81 which provides a little more flexible eq.
Just a tip, since you wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm shopping for a class A channel strip (preamp and EQ) in the Neve vein |
Well, this buddy has got some of that blood in it.
Post by: Fletcher on January 09, 2006, 08:53:07 AM
| bc184 wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 13:01 |
The offer to conduct these blind listening tests is still good. I am open to suggestions on how to set up a test scenario where we could do both single track comparisons as well as multi track (as many tracks as practical) comparison tests. We can do these tests for charity benefit, as we have offered in the past, if you wish. I would like these tests to be about Vintech vs. vintage Neve and/or AMS Neve 1073’s, not because I want to exclude other manufacturers, but because you have consistently singled out our company in discussions on this topic. |
Dallas... you're a very boring man.
I laid out chapter and verse methodology for a comparison exactly as you suggested and you punked out. Please let's not go down that road again unless you want to actually do the test rather than just talk about doing the test.
Post by: bc184 on January 09, 2006, 09:50:06 AM
Your cheap "punked out" shots are quite typical of your methodology. I guess I shouldn't expect anything else.
The fact is, the last time I invited you to do tests was during the San Francisco AES show over a year ago (after one of your dissertations about how much our X73 doesn't sound like a 1073).
I wanted to simply put two of our modules next to two vintage 1073's and two AMS Neve's in side by side comparisons in a professional recording and listening environment listening to actual performances of musicians and singers being recorded live. You didn't believe that you could hear significant differences between our gear and the Neve modules in that test scenario.
Really Fletcher, I don't think it's that difficult.
Think of it like this: Let’s say you are painting a wall in your home and run out of paint half way down the wall. You go to the paint store and they mix up another gallon of paint according to a certain formula for the color you want.
Now if you start painting on the wall where you left off with the old paint, with the two colors side by side, you usually can see some differences. If you paint over the whole wall with the new gallon of paint, you usually have a much harder time seeing the differences compared to the other walls in the room, because they are farther away and more difficult to compare side by side.
I mean honestly Fletcher, most people in the real world only own one or two channels of several different brands of mic preamps anyway. We can record multiple tracks using the Neve, AMS Neve and X73 modules if you wish.... like most folks do. If you'd like to place the recordings we do in a mix and then try to pick out which is which then that would be great as well.
Why don't you give it a try?
Dallas
Post by: Fletcher on January 10, 2006, 01:58:42 PM
You keep spewing the same parlor trick rhetoric... lets put one channel up next to one channel... [and while we're there let's put them out of polarity so we can watch them cancel].
One track, one channel, it's not going to make that much difference... it is the c-u-m-u-l-a-t-i-v-e effect that will illustrate the difference.
I went through this with you a year and a half ago... you wanna fuck around with bullshit tests that will skew the results you go for it... I will not be party to your sham.
Good day sir.
Post by: Geoff_T on January 10, 2006, 02:37:45 PM
Just to add 2c and to emphasise that I have not heard Vintech products nor have a comment about their quality or anything else.
I believe Dallas could spare himself a mountain of grief... and possibly a cross letter from Neve UK... if he just promoted the product as a very good mic pre/compressor/whatever.
What I believe P.O'd Neve is the constant references to their company name in advertisements/posts by cloners.
It's a shame that this topic keeps popping up like a bad penny.
My 2c
Post by: bushwick on January 10, 2006, 02:58:34 PM
Just thought I'd share a small slice of real world pie. I got two x81's to try out on the advice of Dave Swanson, a mulit-platinum engineer who did a shootout of some Neve and Neveesque stuff sometime back. I wound up buying a pair and loving the dickens out of them. So much so that I just bought another pair. So not sure what all the beef is about but I happen to think they sound quite nice, the eq is amazing.
I have an engineer who works in my studio frequently who said he would be "just fine" if I got rid of most everything else in my rack, pre wise, and just had a bunch more of them. Not that I am about to do that but whatever. I can see his point. Some of my outboard pres can be a bit material dependent but I haven't found something yet that these didn't sound at least very good on.
So not tryin to get in the middle of anything here, just droppin my thoughts in the hat.
Best,
joshua kessler
www.bushwickstudio.com
Post by: Geoff_T on January 10, 2006, 04:04:09 PM
I have no doubt, you are right. They most likely are great audio products... but this "sounds EXACTLY like a Neve" is the main bone of contention, whether it's true or not.
Who else is making this claim?
Post by: Bubblepuppy on January 11, 2006, 12:35:25 AM
I just have to say a few things here guys, why as anyone beating their chests and puffing up like blowfish on this Neve issue.
Who are we trying to protect, dont tell me the Neve name because Rupert doesnt need our help on that one. And i also hope its not the failed Neve corporation that Siemens bought then sold and then AMS/Neve and now bought once again.
Give it a rest, we exist in a industry that constantly sells hype (oxygenfree copper)/ bullshit(how to play like insert name)/ bling bling(MTV Sucks) and fantasy (win a date w/Pam Anderson).
We take acoustic truth and manipulte/compress/EQ/enhance the image/slice it in pieces/soften the image/control the verticle/resample/pitch pugins as replacement for hardware...SHIT.
And lets talk about parlor tricks,remember quad, anyone remember that Roland device that was supposed to make the image move in a 360 degree field, Aphex type 1 rental rates per minute.And the loss of a steeley dan master because of a dolby screw up.
our whole medium is a parlor trick, the stereo image is a trick our brain plays on us....
Can we please lighten up on this Neve issue.
peace,love,dove baby!
Post by: floodstage on January 11, 2006, 07:53:08 PM
Post by: Geoff_T on January 11, 2006, 08:09:06 PM
It was about a comparison between BAE 1073's and Neve UK re-issue 1073's.
Not about Vintech, Chandler, et al. Neither of those will drop into a Neve desk.
I have experience of both those units and, of course, the original 1073's dating from the early 70's.
I'm also walking a narrow fence as Robin Porter of Neve UK and Avedis of BAE are both friends of mine.
Let's just say that they are both nice units.
There, that's answered the question (sort of)!
Post by: J.J. Blair on January 11, 2006, 11:07:57 PM
Post by: Roundbadge on January 12, 2006, 01:27:42 PM
Post by: bushwick on January 12, 2006, 03:00:15 PM
Hey bro! Do the shootout once and for all and lets see where things lay. Oh and by the way, good hangin with you and Alicia while y'all were here. Great fun. Yeah man, write an article, post some audio clips if you can of something comprehensive. Anyway, to bounce tracks additively using at least a few channels of each of these to get a mix, well that certainly that would be the true litmus test. A great article idea mr JJ.
Best,
joshua
Post by: Mike P on January 13, 2006, 01:04:51 AM
I've got both the new Vintech 273 & the x73i in my studio. I'm one canyon over from you (in the Hollywood Dell, off of Cahuenga and Franklin) and would be happy to help out in any way.
Mike
Post by: J.J. Blair on January 13, 2006, 10:14:43 AM
Post by: Etch-A-Sketch on January 13, 2006, 07:59:38 PM
| Fletcher wrote on Tue, 03 January 2006 16:26 |
...I don't know how the BAE stuff is built because I've never seen one to look under the hood.... |
Hey, for what it's worth... when I was over there they had several vintage 1073s taken apart and were repairing them. I saw them side by side with a couple BAE 1073s they were building... aside from the fact that the old one's daughter boards looked like the color was fading and they were dusty, all the components looked (to the naked eye) to be identical. Now i didn't sit down and start comparing resistors or circuit board layouts or anything...
I know we are planning on buying several over here at Megatrax in this first quarter of '06. The owners, myself and the chief engineer were very pleased with them. I believe one of our owners is buying some for his house too!
As for which specific brand transformer they are using, I cannot remember the name. I'm sure if you called them they would tell you. They are really cool guys.
Post by: littlehat on January 21, 2006, 02:41:36 PM
Post by: rankus on January 23, 2006, 04:34:03 PM
I would be very interested in such a test.
I have used Dallas's Vintech gear in studio right beside an 8 pack of N 1073's and was extremely impressed... We have never rented the Neve's again.... The Vintechs were bought, and sit in the rack, in use every day...
Did they sound excactly the same? ... No... the Vintechs sounded "better" to our ears... Less "mushy"..
Post by: Fletcher on January 23, 2006, 04:39:46 PM
| Bubblepuppy wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 00:35 |
Give it a rest, we exist in a industry that constantly sells hype (oxygenfree copper)/ bullshit(how to play like insert name)/ bling bling(MTV Sucks) and fantasy (win a date w/Pam Anderson). |
Exactly why I really fucking hate it when people throw around the "N word" as a buzz word that says that their shit is a magic bullet. You've made my point... sell the steak as steak instead of selling the sizzle.
Many of the people I consider to be some of my dearest friends are brilliant designers. I find it offensive when someone tries to earn off their sweat and hardwork when they've done damn little work of their own.
Now you're going to say "but isn't the MP-2NV and EQ-2NV from Great River from a 1073 and a 1083 drawing? [respectively]" Yes, that's where they started... and then they were advanced into the 21st century. It was a "starting point", not the end point. Both units are indeed fresh designs that started from a point that was achieved in 1970-something.
The fact that the stuff that is supposed to "sound exactly like the N-word" doesn't irks me. Market it as a cheap copy of an N-word piece [like an "Epiphone Les Paul"] but let's not call the Epiphone a Gibson.
Please?
Post by: rankus on January 23, 2006, 10:07:14 PM
Wasn't the Neve circuit "lifted" from a "Baxandahl (sp?) circuit"? Common to most tone control sections in home stereo equipment of the day?
A circuit is a circuit... There are only so many that will work... It's about the components...
Rupert Neve did not "invent" this circuit...
Post by: George_ on January 24, 2006, 01:50:16 AM
| Quote: |
A circuit is a circuit... There are only so many that will work... It's about the components... Rupert Neve did not "invent" this circuit... |
damned rankus.. blasphemie in Fletchers forum..
you will be stoned to death (or something similar
)damned, but you are right;)
Post by: Fletcher on January 24, 2006, 07:29:11 AM
What was unique to the "Rupert Neve Company" at that time was the design and construction of the input and output transformers and the design of the input and output amplifiers.
Mr. Neve was a major portion of the design team there but he was not the only designer. While Mr. Neve designed many of the "bits" that went into making a full module [most importantly the input and output transformers and the amplifier circuits] that was very likely the majority of his input... other people within the company took those "bits" and turned them into input modules, line amplifiers, routing, compressors, etc.
These modules had [and have, and add] a unique tonal and textural "mojo" to the audio which I have found lacking in many [OK, most] "clone" designs.
In a conversation a while ago with Robin Porter [head of AMS/Neve design if I remember my titles correctly] we got to talking about the output transformer and how the current version of the Marinair LO 1166 built by Carnhill has increased low frequency distortion characteristics not found in the original Marinair.
These distortion characteristics are why AMS/Neve has had Carnhill build them a different transformer than the ones you'll find in the output sections of the units released by "the cloners". These distortion characteristics are just a symptom of the lack of 'attention to detail' many of the 'Epiphone level' cloners have employed in their offerings... offerings that I dare say lack the emotion and "mojo" found in some of the originals [I say some because there are so many "original N modules" is such a shitty state of repair that they suck even worse than some of the clones].
There is all kinds of other shit that isn't "right"... like the circuit board layouts [each component with have some interaction with every other component... so if the layout strays from the original, so will the sound], power supplies [ability to deliver proper 'current on demand' for creating bass waves and passing transients]... though again I dare say that the vast majority of the original 'N word' modules in various frames are woefully underpowered which does indeed compormise their performance.
There's a whole lot of shit going on besides pulling some similar components and putting them in the same order as was done 30 something years ago.
If you're going to create something new from an old design... all I ask is that you call it what it is... a new design based on something old... I don't think that's asking too much, but apparently I'm wrong.
Post by: Jeff Goodman on January 24, 2006, 02:16:16 PM
Jeff
Post by: jb_studio on January 24, 2006, 03:14:57 PM
I agree with much of what you've said in this thread, but I just want to point out one thing...
In my opinion (again, just one man's opinion here), there are the "epiphone cloners" as you would call them -- and then there is Brent Averill. Without making comment on the Neve cloners and Neve-inspired manufacturers/designers, I just want to make this distinction, as I would hate to see Avedis & co lumped in with the rest, especially when this thread is titled "AMS vs BAE". (Marcel eloquently referred to this as "tarring with the same brush"
...)The bottom line is that Avedis makes a phenomenal product with wonderful attention to detail, and yes, he uses the exact same transformers that AMS-Neve uses (I spoke to Carnhill about this and they confirmed it). Moreover, BA are the only ones out there (apart from AMS of course) who are currently making actual 1073 modules that slide into 80 series consoles, which is a great thing for Neve console owners. The stuff is hand-wired, hand-tested, built to the same spec, and it sounds great.
As you mentioned in another post, there's only one "outlet" for the BA stuff -- and it's rare to see them involved in the forums -- so it's down to passionate users like myself to speak out. So here's another thumbs-up from a satisfied customer. Just wanted throw in my .02...Cheers -- JB
Post by: rankus on January 24, 2006, 03:22:07 PM
Thanks for the clarification above Fletcher.
For the record I am in 100% agreement with Mr. Fletcher....
Don't try to sell me an Epiphone by telling me it's "like" a friggin Gibson!!!
Post by: Madguitrst on January 25, 2006, 05:33:34 PM
I have Gibsons and Epiphones.
I have an Epiphone SG that I would (and did) put against any SG I've ever had my hands on. I didn't need an SG, I just happened upon one so perfect I couldn't walk away in good conscience.
But we're talking apples to oranges.
For all of the reasons we all know, there are no two guitars alike.
As for the N-esque kinda thingys, here's one to really rumple the feathers:
These are really a clone of a wanna be, obviously aimed at the home market who lusts after N gear but can't justify (or afford) using it for what amounts to demo work (my viewpoint, anyway)
Yes, I bought two. I like them for me and my home studio.
I don't know how they compare to anything, other than my Sytek and Sebatron, nor do I care. I'm sure they're not a N.....nothing is but a N in good repair.
FWIW, I'm not an engineer nor will I ever be, I just play one when I need to at the home studio or while dispensing misleading advice on music forums. Yes, I have played through N and A gear but don't exactly have every nuance stored in sonic memory, especially since I was mostly listening on the other side of the glass (except when I was secretly twiddling the knobs while the engineer was hanging out in the bathroom, etc).
Over on a Gearslutz thread, we all got kind of silly, came to our senses (well, not me but.....) and are now pondering what sonic benefits might or might not be derived from actually replacing the caps and transformer, etc in the latest N-killer.....and whether it would be worth it $$$ wise, since these things street at about $750 per channel and pumping lotsa money into them would defeat the purpose, other than maybe to enagage in a lustful soniscieince experient.
I offerred to send one of mine to a member to try next to a 1073 if he had or could get one. He referred me here.
Anyway, although I'd rather only buy American (sorry Geoff) engineered and manufactured music gear, clothes, TVs, computers, and maybe even cars....that's not happening. I almost even hate to have copy of a clone but how can I care when a cloner has been cloned? I dunno....I'm all mixed up. Anyway, I'd rather own a real N and a 56 LP Goldtop too. But the desire to spoil my child (and even save for college), pay the utilities and have enough $$$ left over for chicks (well, only one, but they're really expensive
) has it's price to pay.Anyway, a couple of 7602 are here in Phildelphia if anyone is interested in a zerox of a print of a masterpiece, which IMO, is another useful tool that I am happy to have.
Post by: Geoff_T on January 25, 2006, 07:20:20 PM
| Madguitrst wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 14:33 |
Anyway, although I'd rather only buy American (sorry Geoff) engineered and manufactured music gear, clothes, TVs, computers, and maybe even cars....that's not happening. I almost even hate to have copy of a clone but how can I care when a cloner has been cloned? I dunno....I'm all mixed up. Anyway, I'd rather own a real N and a 56 LP Goldtop too. But the desire to spoil my child (and even save for college), pay the utilities and have enough $$$ left over for chicks (well, only one, but they're really expensive ) has it's price to pay. |
Hi
There isn't "a" 1073... there are multiple renditions of them... something like 20+ issue numbers that I recall through my flu - ridden head.
Might the one copied be the version pre the anti-click mods that added extra resistors that, besides bleeding unused switch contacts to 0v, also changed the loading on the input transformer which drifted up and down with gain settings anyway!
Or might the one copied be post that mod, but pre the mod where the EQ selection circuit was changed, removing a contact but adding an extra capacitor and bleed resistor that loaded the EQ output differently.
Or might it be one of the many small changes like change of transistor type, change of capacitor type, and change of either input or output transformer type?
The only way of guaranteing that two would sound alike is if they came out of the same console, manufactured in the same batch.
This doesn't include post Neve maintenance and repairs. I've even seen fake 1073's made out of Neve bits but with the wrong cards in them.
One thing you can guarantee is that the 7602 won't sound exactly like a 1073 (whichever variant) because it uses Chinese manufactured transformers. If Carnhill couldn't initially make an acceptable copy for Neve, what chances a third party with even less knowledge of the design parameters?
The thing is, a lot of folk have never heard a 1073 and it might suit them just fine... the differences may be tiny.
You pays your money and gets what you pay for!
Post by: Madguitrst on January 25, 2006, 08:46:21 PM
It makes me wonder how more than a select few can really know the Neve sound. It seems more like Neve-ish sound would be a better discription. Of course, I don't really know.
Geoff, this has already been addressed, sort of, but if I may ask.
In your personal opinion:
How close can reputable transformer makers get to their intended target by reverse engineering?
How far away from that is Asian manufacturing?
How much of a difference might tantalum caps make in sound over electrolytics, which was pointed out are used by Chameleon?
BTW, if you look at the innards of the 7602 and the Chandler LTD-1, it's obvious just what the 7602 is cloned after; their layout is just about identical.
7602:
http://gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php3?attachmentid=1462 9&stc=1
7602 power supply
http://gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php3?attachmentid=1463 0&stc=1
LTD-1
http://gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php3?attachmentid=1464 6
Of course, I realize that it's not a matter of "parts is parts".
I'd imagine Chandler isn't too thrilled either.
Then again, didn't they do the same thing to Neve.....and others?
Do they produce anything from orignal designs?
And now, I must apologize. In so many ways it must be galling to see a great product (considered a masterpiece), that you had personal involvemnt in, get bastardized in so many ways. Yet, it all started with the first guy who pulled out a module and racked it up (was that you Fletcher?
j/k).Also, that someone like yourself and others handcraft their products from the finest materials, all of which costs money....as does keeping the lights on and soldering stations fired up.....and someone using the cheapest technical labor force can come along and clone for so much less money.
Really, Idon't know that it hurts sales.
Anyone with a good reason or desire to have something will buy accordng to their needs/desires and ability to afford admission.
Unfortunately, I am a part of it, for all of the usual reasons - excuses maybe? For that, I apologize. Also for my questions if they are galling. Still, I can't help but wonder. And how lucky I get to ask you in a forum such as this? Very, IMO.
In other ways, I feel like there has been gear price goughing going on forever, especially with mics, with Neumann leading the way. Of course, I really know nothing about the manufacturing process of any pro audio gear, other than what I've read.
Those reasons/excuses are:
Everything's made in China - my shoes, shirts, computer, etc. so why not gear? But maybe that's equivalant to - "hey, why not let China clone my CDs and sell them for $3.00!". It's sort o a sacriledge to every thing myself and those I grew up with felt about our art, whatever art that may be.
I wish there were more studios around and that I could afford a good one. Overall, I'd rather just have a Roland VS1680 (which I still keep), use it to work out tunes, and go to the studio where we can all concentrate on what we do best.
And have art for art's sake.............
In any case, thank you Geoff.
Post by: Geoff_T on January 25, 2006, 09:19:56 PM
It's very, very difficult to reverse engineer a transformer besides the obvious wire gauge and sorting out the tricks involved with the manner of wiring... which indeed was the case with the LO1166 and LO2567... because there are tricks one can do, and I have done, to improve the performance but are not easily detected.
It's not that difficult to design a transformer from scratch, given the parameters are specified like turns ratio, matching impedances, mutual inductance, perfomance specs, etc.
But it doesn't follow that transformer will behave exactly the same way as the original.... ask Carnhill!
Even the layouts shown do not resemble the innards of a 1073 that uses two internal interpanels to accomodate the pcbs in two rows,
The distance from the pre-amp stages to the gain switch affects the reactance of the cables and also the loading on the transformers. The boards in the 1073 are very closely coupled by wires that thead between the two inter panels. Mounting a "higher level" output fader next to a "lower level" gain switch risks HF stability. The sound difference is miniscule but difference there will be.
Crocodile tears for the cloner copied by a cloner!
PS I can vouch that, if you swap the tants in a 1073 for aluminum electrolytics, the sound is NOT improved.. quite the contrary. They were put there for good reason.
Post by: Geoff_T on January 25, 2006, 09:38:15 PM
| Madguitrst wrote on Wed, 25 January 2006 17:46 |
Yet, it all started with the first guy who pulled out a module and racked it up (was that you Fletcher? j/k). |
Hi
I somehow doubt it. I was rack mounting Neve modules in racks I built myself and with power supplies I etched myself in the early 80's, well over 20 years ago.
Post by: marcel on January 26, 2006, 03:00:27 AM
| Fletcher wrote on Mon, 23 January 2006 13:39 |
... sell the steak as steak instead of selling the sizzle. ... Now you're going to say "but isn't the MP-2NV and EQ-2NV from Great River from a 1073 and a 1083 drawing? [respectively]" Yes, that's where they started... and then they were advanced into the 21st century. It was a "starting point", not the end point. Both units are indeed fresh designs that started from a point that was achieved in 1970-something... |
Umm... While this thread has been going on, I managed to get ahold of some 'real' N-modules, and to A/B the GR stuff that I was test driving against them (and the API gear that I mentioned at the top of the thread...)
I decided to buy the MP-2NV and the EQ-2NV after I did this...
Did they sound like (insert N-word here)? No. Much closer than they did to the API, but not 'the same'. Did they sound 'better'? No. They sounded different, not distinguishably better or worse, just different...
I decided to buy them because I thought the EQ was more flexible and varied, which I realized I wanted in something that I will probably do about 90% of my tracking here through. I also liked the features of an unbalanced insert point in between gain stages in the preamp and the unbalanced output option - because I use and have come to like the FMR RNC.
I also came to see the sense of what Fletcher is saying (actually prior to having read the above quoted post) - a well designed piece of gear that, while it may borrow from a past design, is an original engineering effort, will almost always be more valuable than a 'clone' to me. The stuff I purchased does not seem at all gimmicky. It just sounds good (in a wide variety of applications) and appears solid and built to last.
I do appreciate everyone who has contributed their opinions and knowledge to this thread, and I have learned a lot about the history and design of this element of recording hardware, which is, I guess, what this is all about for me. And I would still like to hear some head-to-head tests at some point between the various wanna-N's...
Anyone who owns a white lab coat would probably be qualified (!)
Best, Marcel
Post by: skygod on February 10, 2006, 01:42:57 PM
Rupert Neve is a gift to this era of world history. Yet he suffers from the same problem everybody else does -- always running out of money! He has bounced around between his own companies and consulting with so so many other companies over the years, that each step he takes in another direction, slams the door of availability for the last product we still might want to get our little dickbeaters on .... y'know, those timeless designs that folks are trying to get their hands on are either not available anymore, or if found are out are out of budgtary reach. So we have clones ... and some better than others ... oh well. Thats the spirit of the human race "to move onward and therefore improvise."
So he's back now with the Portico line. See:
http://www.rupertneve.com/
I have only found one review of the 5012. Since there is so much really bad hot air out there comparing Neve to others, lets try comparing Neve to Neve shall we?
Have any of you heavywights tried out the Portico Line yet, and if so (for those of you that have had the pleasure of owing or having used vintage Neve inboard or outboard in your careers) how do Portico modules compare to the venerated old Neve stuff that Mr. Fletcher has done a decent job outlining in this forum at:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/articles/fletch/part3.s html
Many Thx in advance
/vr/rrc/
Post by: compasspnt on February 10, 2006, 02:36:20 PM
Roy and others,
Certainly the "original" Neve designs were great sounding, and are much revered. But have the later (say, the last thirty years' worth) of RN designs sounded great, or been so accepted?
Post by: skygod on February 11, 2006, 02:59:23 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 00:36 |
Roy and others, Certainly the "original" Neve designs were great sounding, and are much revered. But have the later (say, the last thirty years' worth) of RN designs sounded great, or been so accepted? |
dear compasspnt-
yes and youssa!
an interesting thing happened to me on the way here today by way of 1972, i realized that one thing done very well, is well, one thing done very well. sure everything in the past three decades since the 'golden age' neve stuff came out is marvelous, but you know what, with many more bells and whistles, maybe sometimes too many. im not a technofreak that enjoys a lot of buttons, or eye wash stuff, but i really love the old look and utility of old analog radio AM-MW-FM transmitters with their analog leds and dbv meters etc, like the old telefunken stuff etc.
my lucky break happened by accident in 1971 when a regional impresario (i guess that we the name they used back then for douchebag, oops, i mean producer) heard me perform at a theatrical recital in high school and quickly threw me into a touring conservatory trained orchestra who backed the big names of the era, because i was a prodigy savant player as a teen that could do 4/4 brit glam (circa the bowie freak show) and switch to 5/4 straight ahead to a 3/4 classical waltz without missing a beat. does god have a sense of humor or what?
we all know how inconsistent the mfg process and parts were back then, so one amp head could have sounded great and the next identical model off-shelf totally different and crappy. i had a 1968 marshall plexi -100 and a 1973 marshall plexi - 50 that both had reactive load resistors and attenuators built for me way back then by a guru electronics engineer/physicist who worked for aramco who i knew before reactive loads like the palmer pdi-03 or now pga-04 were even conceived or developed so that i could use these in an orchestral big band situation. i lucked out and both my heads were one trick puppies and were magical tone wise.
i loved those p-t-p heads thru custom jbl/altec loaded cabs. albeit they always hummed like crap because i was overseas, and the power was 220v 50 cycles and always dirty, and marshalls are notorious for lousy grounds in the slp line, so the guru managed to build a circuit to kill the hum too. i think i paid like a buck twenty five for each, and the strat and lp and archtop i had then cost me another two and a half bills. $500 was big bucks back then. i played these until i retired the two amps and had a nice cremation ceremony in my back yard with music and flowers and a small entourage of forest animals guests when i stopped touring for good, because i had been touring with them since the early 70s and they were being held together by duct tape, roofing glue, staples, etc and had been rebuilt at least four times each because they kept blowing up, and once i took a hammer and smashed both their intestines to bits after a lousy show because i am a moron. but that
Post by: compasspnt on February 11, 2006, 03:27:19 PM
Well, I didn't expect such a story, but...thanks, I guess.
I was merely thinking how much I didn't like (for the most part) Focusrite, Amek, etc., etc. etc., in anywhere near the way I liked the original RN designs.
Post by: skygod on February 12, 2006, 10:19:49 AM
| Quote: |
I was merely thinking how much I didn't like (for the most part) Focusrite, Amek, etc., etc. etc., in anywhere near the way I liked the original RN designs |
you're right, for the most part me too and many others whose posts from hands-on experience i've read in many forums across the internet. i guess the wordy examples i used from my life experiences pertaining to guitar amplification [analogous against the generations of high end recording equipment of this thread] centered around inconsistency in parts and mfg processes over time regardless of 'whatever genre of analog equipment' is in question.
that said, there were some amek products that weren't too terrible, e.g. the amek 9098i should not be overlooked for tracking and mixdown. i do not use nor ever plan to use focusrite when i already have ssl, api, trident, and helios strips to work with ... but thats a personal opinion and choice. one module that comes to mind is the trident S40 single-channel strip that i like very very much, even more so than the 1073.
remember, amek has primarily been a post production broadcast creature that ventured into the recording realm with the nudging of the great one -- whose last name starts with -N- that i dare not utter lest i be smote from upon high ...
well, we got two feet of snow last night in the NY metro and im going out now after my third gallon of coumbian coffee to start up the snow blower and dig us out. oh my, how much it sucks to be me
have a great weekend - thx
/vr/rrc/