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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => j. hall => Topic started by: permeke on July 14, 2005, 04:48:27 PM

Title: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: permeke on July 14, 2005, 04:48:27 PM

I love my 1176 comp. on the drum room mics squashed to death, but then I have so much cymbals in the output, more than any other instrument of the drumkit.
Is that the nature of the 1176 ?
any tricks you guys use to avoid this ?

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: Fibes on July 14, 2005, 05:19:52 PM

I tend to cut some high shelf on all room mics no matter what the compressor. YMMV

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: Rob Darling on July 15, 2005, 07:26:24 AM

The 1176 is a fast compressor- even the slow attack and release are relatively fast.  That said, like any other compressor, fast attack, fast release, and you get the sustains up next to the peaks.  In a drum kit, the cymbals have a gazillion times more sustain than any other part, so they end being as loud as everything else.  That's how she goes.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: j.hall on July 15, 2005, 08:58:44 AM

slow down the release time.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: permeke on July 15, 2005, 01:22:47 PM

j.hall wrote on Fri, 15 July 2005 14:58

slow down the release time.

Then I lose the 1176 sound  

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: j.hall on July 15, 2005, 01:36:37 PM

um......i'm confused

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: DJC8902 on July 15, 2005, 01:47:45 PM

Actually,  permeke is absolutely right. The slowing of the release time completely takes away that amazing pumping affect of the 1176 on drum sounds...which makes it such a great choice to crush room mics with. I agree with FIBES, try and low pass some of the swish out of the room mics and meet it in the middle. Its worth it in the end to have them sounding a little messy, the cool outweighs the messy by a million!

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: j.hall on July 15, 2005, 06:38:06 PM

i disagree completely.....i've used tons of 1176's (and i'm no seasoned pro)

backing off the release time a tiny bit at a time to get the cymbals to tame down still yields an 1176 sound.....you're pumping the sound through the same box....it's got the same tone

so, i'll remain confused....

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: bjornson on July 16, 2005, 09:43:45 AM

The real solution is to educate the monkey with the stix.
Let him hear what the result would be if he could only back off the brass while still wholloping the skins!

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: lord on July 16, 2005, 10:49:02 AM

I have a real question. Why are rock cymbals so freeking heavy and loud in general?

They are overpowering when recording.

They're too loud in the room when rehearsing.

They ring WAY too long.

Drummers always hit them too hard anyway.

The only advantage is that they don't crack.

Why why why?

If you suggest lighter cymbals to most guys they look at you like you just suggested they should play in lace panties and high heels. So my theory is that it is all a big dick thing. Hmm?

Or is it that they sound about right with a 25db foam ear plug ? Maybe the solution to the original poster's problem is to place the room mic in a 50 piece carton of ear plugs?

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: jgehring on July 16, 2005, 03:26:22 PM

I hate the heavy gong-like cymbals too, which is why I keep a set of thin ones in-house.  Just tell the monkey that while he made a brilliant choice buying those 1/2" thick garbage can lids that sound TERRIFIC live and that only the manliest of men could play, the thin ones are your "studio secret weapon" and that you won't tell anybody.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: drumsound on July 16, 2005, 03:45:38 PM

jgehring wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 14:26

I hate the heavy gong-like cymbals too, which is why I keep a set of thin ones in-house.  Just tell the monkey that while he made a brilliant choice buying those 1/2" thick garbage can lids that sound TERRIFIC live and that only the manliest of men could play, the thin ones are your "studio secret weapon" and that you won't tell anybody.

The cymbal makers keep making them thicker because the amp maker makers keep making amps louder and more distorted.  The drummers buy them so they can hear the cymbals over the guitars.  The guitar players then buy louder, more distorted amps so they can hear guitar over the cymbals.  So the drummers buy thicker cymbals...

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: Rivers on July 16, 2005, 09:13:52 PM

Definitely true about trying to get heard over guitars.

I was doing some roughs for a band last night and on one particular  chorus the drummer was displeased with how his open high hat bashing was overriding everything else in the mix.He  kept looking for ways to bring down the high hats but they were in all the mic,etc.We managed to get it better but I think/hope it reinforced that the big problem was the way he was bashing,not the mics,room,setup,etc.

I also have a theory that most drummers don't really have a great idea of what their kit sounds like 10 feet away in a room...probably the only time they've heard it was on a recording or through some jacked up live monitor mix,
One more reason a little preproduction can be a good thing,I guess.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: pg666 on July 17, 2005, 03:07:20 PM

try putting the room mics on or near the floor to reject some 'cymbal suck'. actually, i don't know if it rejects high end or just brings up the low end 'boom' on drums, but it helps.

personally, if i hear too much 'sucking', i just back off the comp.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: j.hall on July 18, 2005, 07:56:45 AM

moving the mics down to the floor just eliminates some reflections bouncing around the room, especially off the floor.  that technique is best suited for omnis.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: takeout on July 18, 2005, 09:08:09 AM

lord wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 15:49

I have a real question. Why are rock cymbals so freeking heavy and loud in general? They are overpowering when recording. They're too loud in the room when rehearsing. They ring WAY too long. Drummers always hit them too hard anyway. The only advantage is that they don't crack. Why why why? If you suggest lighter cymbals to most guys they look at you like you just suggested they should play in lace panties and high heels. So my theory is that it is all a big dick thing. Hmm? Or is it that they sound about right with a 25db foam ear plug ? Maybe the solution to the original poster's problem is to place the room mic in a 50 piece carton of ear plugs?

Ha... I just had a mental image of the last time I heard J. play drums...

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: j.hall on July 18, 2005, 09:32:49 AM

i was trying to avoid this topic.........

*returns to looking the other way as though ignorant of what's being discussed*

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: John Ivan on July 19, 2005, 03:25:39 PM

When your tracking, throw the 1176 {or two for stereo or the 78 :-},,,,} across the room mics and move them around until you like what you hear. Then, print them without the 1176. {you could monitor the mics  by assigning to a stereo buss that's not going to tape too.} This way, you have some idea about what will happen come mix time but you don't have to commit to the compression.

Another thing to look at is pointing the cardioid condensers away from the kit. The off axis response will be less bright and you can get a different reverb sound this way..

Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: zmix on July 19, 2005, 11:31:08 PM

That is a good point. Condensor mics are generally too bright for room ambience. Most HF reflections above 8KHZ decay very quickly, and the only true HF energy in the room comes from the direct path.

Try a ribbon,or point the mics away from the kit.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: volthause on July 21, 2005, 10:03:40 AM

Anyone ever tried a de-esser for stuff like that?

I've pulled ugly hi-hat out of a snare track before using one. Just a thought.

Title: Re: 1176 on drum room mics YES, but lots of cymbal rise
Post by: brandondrury on July 22, 2005, 09:28:13 AM

I've had issues with my overheads being too bright, even when uncompressed because of drummers who can't balance their kit.  Lately, the secret weapon for me as been using my Royer R121 as an overhead.  It has this way of ignoring cymbals.  

J.J. did a post a while back where he showed monster compressed R121s as room mics.  It seamed to exactly solve the problem you are talking about.

Brandon