maxim wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 16:32 |
i agree with j this was a hard song to keep interesting j wrote: "...beautiful side of the song. IMO, there isn't one." |
jdier wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 20:23 |
I guess I am all alone in that I loved the song and the arrangement. Jim |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 23:56 |
i like how you are leaning on the bass amp/distortion more then the DI. i don't like how dark the drums are. the vocal effects are an interesting choice, but i think the rest of the music isn't matching it. you need your elements to meet each other "where they are". if you want to go with that vocal effect (which i kinda of like) you should find where each element fits into that. right now, the singer is on saturn, while the band is in route to get there. |
j.hall |
overall, i think it's not hitting hard enough. you should compress the drums quite a bit harder and see if the pumping works with the vocal effects. |
j.hall |
thus far, i like your vocal the best, but i don't like your mix. |
j.hall wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 22:56 |
Red Tape great vocal tone. it's compressed well and EQ'd well. where's the beef????? the drums are dark, distant (not verb, volume) have no bottom and aren't propelling the mix forward. the drummer in this recording is the only one with any feel. that in mind, your snare sound is good, just needs a some more high end. you want your snare drum to be as bright, but not any brighter, then the lead vocal and vice versa (that's a real gem there.........so don't blow me off......) i'd guess you as a bass player based on this mix. guitars and drums are fairly back, bass and vocal is up front. if you have a pair of headphones you trust, i'd be curious how the mix would change if you did it in headphones. |
maxim wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 00:32 |
pete wrote: "...nice phase on the kit mics" i had to flip half the mics' phase (i had to choose between going with kick coherent or snare coherent (i went with the snare...probably should have gone with kick...)) |
Red Tape wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 05:54 |
By the way, any tracking info available for this tune? What mics where and so on? |
Adam Miller wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 12:07 |
JHall- Did you replay the guitar solo on a kazoo? |
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(did anyone else use the shit mic? |
rankus wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 19:17 |
EDIT Chris and Adam: You missed my submission in your critique... although I had more time to mix than you guys, it would be nice to hear what you think. Link: Rankus - Losing Fight |
NickT wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 13:35 | ||
Yeah...I did. Crushed it with an 1176 plug. |
Jhall |
ATOR man, you almost had me with the intro. i could totally see that as a pre-roll segue on the record. but we never came out of the spacey lo-fi thing. the drums are in the other room, and feel soft. the background vocals are louder then the lead. everything just feels soft. now, if you turned up the guitars i could be sold on this mix. the song is total album filler....and this isn't all that bad of "connector" song. it just doesn't rock. what was your vision for the mix and the song? i'm curious how you got to this mix. |
ATOR wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 16:23 |
Actually I was going for a big direct hardpounding rock track with some fx here and there to have a change of scenery But I couldn't get there. As if I was trying to blow up a balloon with a big hole in it, the more I did the weaker it started to sound. I'd still like to make this a powerful sounding mix but right now I don't have a clue how to get there. |
spoon wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 16:44 |
JHall - You like that pumping thing. I think it was present on all the IMPs I have been apart of. Not my bag, sounds too much like modern radio music. The mix feels a bit muddy (maybe guitar volumes) in the low end. I like the vocal treatments as well as the "leads" treatments. |
j.hall wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 22:26 |
what is it with all you chicago guys???????? seriously, every one i know from chicago (xonlocust aside) is this big compression hater....... i'm honestly curious.......i can't for the life of me figure out whay engineer from chicago are so against compression. every time in come up there assistants and other engineers say the same thing, "you sure you want to use that 1176 like that?" YES, I"M F'ING SURE if you saw me cut drums you'd probably have a heart attack right then and there. |
grant richard wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 20:05 |
spoon, thanks for the comments. i trying to understand why you say the compression i used makes the drums sound small. i think if anything, the kick drum should come up in my mix after listening to it again...that mix is huuuuge |
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i listened to yours, and i'm thinking...it could use a touch (meaning...a lot) more compression on the overheads/room mics. the snare kind of sits back in the mix a bit, and doesn't really grab me from the get-go. the bass seems to lack punch as well. i liked how the lead lines sound at the end though....very tasty! |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 05:18 |
Tom C, you asked.....and i hope i can communicate this well. [...] did that help at all? |
rankus wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 19:17 | ||
Hi Red, Time to come forwards I suppose... |
chrisj wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 19:10 |
Okay, don't kill me for this- I'm thinking Def Leppard here, a bit. Something about how neatly everything is laid out. Some people puke over Def Leppard, but it IS Mutt Lange after all. |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 04:01 |
i feels like you pushed up the faders, got a good blend going, threw some effects at it and walked away. |
grant richard wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 05:32 |
NIZZLE i dig your mix! couple of questions. 1. how did you treat your drums? specifically the snare and the overheads/rooms? did you use samples? did you replace or blend? what about the toms? 2. how did you treat the rhythm guitar? thanks! grant |
Nizzle wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 11:16 |
Also - The 2 buss has alot to do with the sound of the Drums and Gtrs - I used the Massey TapeHead, then a Pultec Program EQ plug - I enhanced 30Hz and 15K to taste. After that, I used the T-Racks Compressor at 3:1 with not quite 2dB of reduction - then an L2 to raise the over-all level BUT with absolutely NO Gain Reduction...I mix (and trackfor that matter) at relatively low levels(-6 peaks). so - my mixes are very low in level - I used the L2 to get the level to a point where I feel the program audio is hitting the amplifier for the speakers enough to drive them properly. |
Red Tape wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 03:03 |
Where were the overheads and royer rooms placed? Was that an edit at 0:48 on the bass di - I hear a click/pop thing there. |
Nizzle wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 12:50 |
Hey David - I guess I'm using the L2 instead of raising the master fader just so I have the added security of setting the brick wall at .1dB which ensures I won't have any overs...Remember, not all transients are reflected in the digital meters and it's easy to F-up and go over...So - when submitting mixes for artist approval - I'll strap on the L2 and raise the level without causing any gain reduction(or very very little)....Because I mix at such low levels - I wouldn't dream of submitting a mix to an artist for sign off without raising the level enough so that the preamp/amp for the playback system is getting hit hard enough by my program audio...a super low level out of a CD player - into a stereo sounds very wimpy to my ears AND let's not forget the psychology behind volume and perceived excitement to the listener. best, -t |
spoon wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 19:08 | ||
Oh, that's clever. I like that. Am I correct in assuming if the material is getting sent to Mastering, you do not apply this technique? |
M Carter wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 01:14 |
did somebody say recalls? |
M Carter wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 23:35 |
J - advice taken to heart (you may be right about the meter watching, but I avoid EQ graphs like the plague). did you drink a pot of coffee before replying with all that? those were some of the more passionate replies I've seen from you. |
spoon wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 23:55 |
That is funny. I dunno. I love compression...really I do. I smash tons of things...really...I just dont have any examples now. For most songs I prefer to have them breath on their own rather than make them breath...not that some things cant/shouldnt have life breathed into them... I am just not a fan of an entire track pumping (just me). The radio does that too. It creates a false feeling of my ears compressing (you know when the rock show is dangerously loud) which is probably why I am not into that. Sometimes I cut drums on nuke, but I am doing it to a mult(s) so I can keep clean and dirty versions. I would think Chicago would have plenty of AEs into that sort of thing (Aside from Albini and his crew). I dont get out much...Cheers J. David |
Nizzle wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 10:16 |
JHall - Sounds like a "quick mix" done by someone who knows what they're doing. |
Adam Miller wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 10:58 | ||
Well, I can't argue too much with that assessment! I thought the printed sounds were of sufficiently high quality and performed well enough not to warrant too much dicking around. I could have gone to town with automation and ear candy, but at a certain point i think that becomes distracting, and doesn't really fit with the genre. Just my tuppence worth- thanks to all for their comments. |
M Carter wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 13:44 |
@ Recalls I admittedly didn't really put enough in to the mix because of other pressing life matters. After taking J's advice and running with it, I'm already much happier with the results. I appreciate the lack of technical speak in the reply in lieu of attempting to convey the approach taken in the mix. back to the work grind.... So far my favorite mixes are J's, Adam's and Nizzle's. So far though none of the mixes are impressive as far as the guitars go, and I kind of feel like it's mostly because of the source material, meaning the player. It just doesn't have any kind of punk rock swag to it. |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 05:21 | ||
wanna do some recalls? |
ATOR wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 20:46 |
Here we go, hold on to your seats Nizzle This is a mastering engineers nightmare. Blasted to oblivion. Too bad ‘cause there might be a good mix underneath. |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 20:49 | ||
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! well, minus the "knows what they're doing" part. |
M Carter wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 21:20 |
tom - what I meant by 'start with the L2' was, do you put it on the mix before you even start mixing, to compensate for the levels and potentially save yourself some headroom? Matt |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 15:43 |
AnonymousUser you took the time to mix the track and hit the deadline and you couldn't register an account??????? i'd love to talk about this mix for a lot of reasons, but it's really unfair to the other posters (a few who regiestered accounts JUST to submit for IMP10) |
AnonymousUser wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 15:54 | ||
Errr...I'm not sure what you mean J. My user account IS AnonymousUser. While I do regularly read this board, I didn't have an account because I don't tend to add my input to any threads for a lot of reasons. I created an account just to submit to IMP10. I like the idea and intent behind IMP and I really enjoyed participating and listening to everyone's mixes. There are a ton of good ideas in a lot of them. I like the song that was mixed and would probably buy the album it appeared on. I haven't had a chance to follow the myspace link Rankus posted yet... I am interested in your thoughts on my mix J. |
AnonymousUser wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 15:54 |
Errr...I'm not sure what you mean J. My user account IS AnonymousUser. While I do regularly read this board, I didn't have an account because I don't tend to add my input to any threads for a lot of reasons. I created an account just to submit to IMP10. I like the idea and intent behind IMP and I really enjoyed participating and listening to everyone's mixes. There are a ton of good ideas in a lot of them. I like the song that was mixed and would probably buy the album it appeared on. I haven't had a chance to follow the myspace link Rankus posted yet... I am interested in your thoughts on my mix J. |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 15:43 |
Jim Dier holy arena batman..... i would expect this from the band sound checking at the local arena before a gig.....not their album mix. listening through the FX, the mix is pretty good. back al the effects WAY down and see if you dig it. also, those toms need to sustain more. slow attack, fast release compressor, get them to rig more and feel larger then life. see if that makes your drums feel bigger then they are.....sometimes it's just that simple. your kick is getting lost in the bigger parts. turn it up and get some point on it (5k maybe) i hope your traveling was good....welcome back....HA |
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ok.....you've gotten A LOT better. i can hear the biggest improvements in your work over the past few IMPs. a few things to consider. the kick needs more bottom, but what you did to the upper mids is reallygreat considering the rest of the aesthic in your mix. this mix is the only one i've heard thus far that has a dry vocal that works. it's perhaps a touch too loud....but it feels pretty good to me. the snare sounds good but is too loud. remember, in a rock mix the kit needs to be balanced. the kick and snare and toms all need to be about the same level. your snare matches your vocal nicely. i thnk over all it could be a touch wider (stereo field). one thing i do dig a lot is the pumping off the kick drum to the rest of the kit. the mix seems unaffected by it. but for a split moment each kick hits actually cuts out the cymbals......i have some distortion boxes that do with when they get over loaded with bottom, and i LOVE that in certain places. |
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ChrisJ - Nick T- I'm liking the energy on this one- I feel the intensity of the lead vocal in this context. I'm finding the hihats and cymbals pretty distracting, but it's right on the edge of what I can keep listening to. I like that I'm able to believe it's an interesting song. |
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Adam Miller - NickT- the brightness on the drums isn't working for me; the hihat becmoes the focus of the mix; the stereo image also seems a bit skewed. Otherwise, an alright mix, it just doesn't 'nail it' for me. |
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Spoon - NickT - Good feel...like the distant Lead1 track. Drums are very dry, didnt use the room mikes? Gives them that 70's drum feel. |
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Spoon- Nick T - Drums are weird sounding and seem to be heavy on the right channel. Snare drum needs some power....Vox aren't doing anything for me...Overall lack of vibe. |
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TonmC- NickT: I like this one a lot. Toms could have a bit more low end, but overall nothing to complain from my side. |
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ATOR- NickT Leadvox it a little too small and unnaturally dry. The drums sound weak. Sounds are unfinished. This sounds almost like a faders up mix. |
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j.hall- Nick T intro is interesting.....at least it's different, not sure it serves much of a purpose, but that's not up to me. the top end of your mix is making my filling rattle out. 12.5k and up......what is going on with the artifacts on the kick drum? |
fantomas wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 17:05 |
Thanks for the advise J.Hall. My problem is working with plug ins because the dont react like the real thing and it feels wrong to eq or compress that much in a DAW. I must trust my instincts and do what it takes. I dont like my snare sound its pretty soft to my ears too. i was tempted to blend a sample but i dont know why i didnt do it. The vocal is my error i didnt pay too much attention (even knowing that drums, bass and vocals defines if a mix sounds like a demo or a record) i just lost focus and didnt trust my decisions anymore having heard this song 100 times. |
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Just one question what do you search when you compress the overheads, whats your goal?. I ask this because i almost never compress overheads. |
Will F wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 16:34 |
Thanks for the comments J. (and everyone so far) It's true I had the most trouble with the vocals and I just ran out of time. I would welcome suggestions on better compressing them. |
Cosmedic wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 17:06 |
Hi Guys, Chris here, the singer of the band. Just spent the last couple hours listening and reading. If anyone has any comments musically or whatever, I believe you can PM on here ?...or can i post my email? www.myspace.com/Cosmedic |
j.hall wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 13:43 |
Pauly D you should have submitted |
fantomas wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 21:03 |
And i will try your approach to overheads (i do this when i am tracking, i try to get my drum sound with the overheads) but when i mix i usually hipass them but not to much. |
Cosmedic wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 20:06 |
Some nice mixes out there, creative. I dont know how much time you guys have to mix this, but I read about someone who nudged the vox forward a bit? |
NickT wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 01:02 |
Now This Is The Interesting Part! Although I own some great software...This mix was done completely with free software. DAW - Reaper Evaluation (learned as I went) Modern - vst plugs Voxengo - vst plugs Glaceverb - Reverb Sweetboy Dither Fish Fillets - vst Kjaerhus - vst plugs Beta Bugs - vst Audacity - editing. |
j.hall wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 01:32 |
granted, many of you had issues with my mix....but i'm getting lots of comments on my drums and bass. would you guys like to hear a stereo file that's JUST drums and bass from me? will help you at all? |
Greg Dixon wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 11:51 |
When it was first mentioned that it sounded like there was an earth loop problem, I ignored the comment, as the audio was downloaded, put into a PT session, mixed (no outboard used), bounced to disk and then converted to an MP3 in iTunes. It never left the digital world. I need to listen to it with headphones, but I'm not expecting to hear a problem. Any thoughts as to what else could be causing this? |
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When it was first mentioned that it sounded like there was an earth loop problem, I ignored the comment, as the audio was downloaded, put into a PT session, mixed (no outboard used), bounced to disk and then converted to an MP3 in iTunes. It never left the digital world. |
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Wow, that's pretty cool. After all the information I got from J.Hall I decided to do a recall of the mix, and one idea to do this with a fresh mindset was to use Reaper so I wouldn't go the same route again. If nothing else comes in this weekend will be the 'Reaper weekend'. Tom |
Tom C wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 05:29 | ||
If I remember correctly there was one track (rhythm guitar? Can't check right now) with a big hum in it, maybe your processing accentuated this. Tom |
Tom C wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 04:10 | ||
Wow, that's pretty cool. After all the information I got from J.Hall I decided to do a recall of the mix, and one idea to do this with a fresh mindset was to use Reaper so I wouldn't go the same route again. If nothing else comes in this weekend will be the 'Reaper weekend'. Tom |
Greg Dixon wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 02:51 |
bounced to disk and then converted to an MP3 in iTunes. It never left the digital world. |
NickT wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 17:05 |
I have probably learned more in this thread than any other IMP. People actually giving some "tech" talk. J, Nizzle, Rankus and all the rest. J's descriptions and then the stem really helps. Thanks for sharing, NickT |
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i'll throw this challenge out for anyone who wants to do it. do a stems mix of drums and bass and make it sound exactly like mine. don't mistake this for arrogance.......i'm not saying mine is awesome. there is A LOT to be learned for trying to mimic some one else methodology and "sound". the critical listening skills required are VERY high. we all have the same tracks and i didn't use a single sample in this mix (which was very intentional) name your stem: imp10(your user name)DrumsBass |
j.hall wrote on Fri, 02 March 2007 22:51 |
drums and bass mix |
mcsnare wrote on Sun, 04 March 2007 12:55 |
I'm a little late to the game, but thought I'd take a crack at a mix. Don't know if this is the right thread but my mix is on the pro sound web server labeled IMP_10_mix1_mcsnare.wav Lemme know what ya'll think. Dave |
maxim wrote on Sun, 04 March 2007 19:24 |
you gave the tracks power, depth and made me want to keep listening is there anything else a mixing engineer needs to do? |
M Carter wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 09:45 |
Good answer - I'm aware that there's really no substitute for experimentation. The best advice I've got so far from this exercise has been from J. to get the mix where I want it before using any FX, and then using the FX tastefully to bring out the things that need it. I think approaching the mix that way resulted in a big improvement from my previous mix, I also got it done a lot faster. Thanks for the great advice - Matt |
rankus wrote on Sun, 04 March 2007 11:10 |
Henchy Sounds good! I could have used less snare bottom. Is that the shit mic? ... 1db more on the backwards gtr. I love the effect on that... Is that the kick or a sample? Sweet! Yer talking to me ... I dig it |
mcsnare wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 13:17 |
Rick, I thought the tune was generally very well recorded. Except for the hum on the DI of rhythm gtr 2,(which was easy to filter and a mistake I have made myself more than a few times) I can't think of too much I'd change. I usually eq and compress things to how I want them when recording, so when I mix my own tracks I eq and compress less, but in PT's there is really no penalty for eq'ing later. One thing I'd suggest is try to spread the room mics. I'm never crazy about a coincident pair enless it's to capture things in a very purist way, which can be cool sometimes. For rock drum room, I like to have a wide stereo spread to the ambient mics. Try a pair of 57's at vocal mic height, spread apart several feet pointing away from the kit. Never fails. Dave |
mcsnare wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 18:54 |
Of course all my fancy reasons don't mean squat if you just plain like the gtr where it originally was better. If that was the case in a real situation, I would have left it in and either de emphasized it in someway during the 1st verse and/or made something additional happen during the 2nd verse. Dave |
maxim wrote on Tue, 27 February 2007 18:32 |
pete wrote: "...nice phase on the kit mics" i had to flip half the mics' phase (i had to choose between going with kick coherent or snare coherent (i went with the snare...probably should have gone with kick...)) |
typek wrote on Thu, 08 March 2007 11:26 |
Maxim... thanks for the answer.. so.. then.. what exactly determines if the mics are in or out of phase? Doesnt it have to do with the direction they are faced in relation to eachother? Also, what do you use to flip the phase? |
maxim wrote on Fri, 09 March 2007 06:10 |
i still want to know about the reasons/goals behind the vocal mults separate compression? eq? both? |
mcsnare wrote on Sat, 10 March 2007 15:47 |
ATOR, that recall sounds pretty good. As far as what I did on the snare, it's just lot's of compression and eq. One of the snare mults got a DynIII gate to clean up a bit of the cymbals that get sucked in to all that compression. Also the overheads and room get compressed and don't forget all the drums go to a buss and get compressed AGAIN. There is also a bit of compression on the whole mix. Some of the sound is the most excellent Chandler EMI comp/limiter plug(a must have IMO), and also the UA 1176, which is KILLER. Those and the Massey CT4 are about 90% of what I use for compression. I could do what I do with just Bomb Factory and Waves stuff, but it's just harder and takes longer. Remember, anything that makes the job harder and take longer is taking away from your overall sense of what is happening with the mix. Dave |
briefcasemanx wrote on Mon, 02 April 2007 04:23 |
Damn I keep seeing these things after the deadline is over. I need to keep my comp connected to the internet more! |