Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 21, 2008, 09:00:00 PM
I'm going to teach myself how to record and mix. I had initialy though I'd purchase a respectable collection of microphones, a rack of premium front end gear, premium converters, premium computer, premium DAW software and the rest of the required accessories, but was advised not to.
I then had the idea to get the microphones, but instead of seperate preamps and converters, something like the Apogee Ensemble would be the way to go for me, but thats still going to lead to major bucks for me to have to spend, before I even learn proper recording.
So now I'm on to the Digi 003 or it's competitors if there are any. I've read that M Audio gear leaves something to be desired in sound quality. I already own a Acer PC tower which I'd like upgrade the memory on if I used it as it only has 512MB I think, and this Acer Aspire 5920 Core 2 Duo, 1.66GHz,667MHz FSB, 2MB L2 cache, 3GB DDR2 laptop, both relatively new, and running on Vista. I am not looking to do this for a living/professionally, but do want something that can be capable of at least damn near professional sound quality if not pro sound quality. I want to do simple recordings i.e. 3 miked drums, DI/miked bass, DI/miked guitar cab, and vox. Might have a real horn come in too, or an electronic keyboard player. Might stereo, or 3 track a local church chior. Will certainly record myself on drums, and singing those sappy ballads I like to sing.
Anyway back to the Digi 003...any opinions? Experienced opinions? Options?
Post by: compasspnt on June 21, 2008, 09:10:25 PM
In my opinion, the A > D and then D > A converters are the weak link.
As far as operability, no problems at all, as long as you don't need more I/O or track count than they provide.
If you get one, try to also get something like a Lavry Blue rack for stereo I/O conversion.
Good luck.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 12:07:37 AM
| compasspnt wrote on Sat, 21 June 2008 20:10 |
These units are fine as controllers, and allow you to do professional recording into Protools, with one exception: the converters. In my opinion, the A > D and then D > A converters are the weak link. As far as operability, no problems at all, as long as you don't need more I/O or track count than they provide. If you get one, try to also get something like a Lavry Blue rack for stereo I/O conversion. Good luck. |
Thanks for the info Terry. I found after some clicking and then more clicking, and more clicking that the unit in question will have enough I/O for me and I would like to keep it to 8 tracks for now anyway. The 003's preamps get a pass?
Would the Lavry Blue rack be for the stereo mix you mean, or to track with in stereo? My brain is analog. I think in analog. Mic into micpre into console, out to track and back to console monitor channel yada yada yada. I have acess to a Tascam TSR-8 but can't get tape anymore. I'm not exactly certain where and when I need a converter in the chain other than initial input to PT and to monitor. Also it, the Blue, is on the pricey side isn't it? I need to go look it up now, but I thought all the Lavry stuff was true hibuck? Ah Shit! Can I just come intern at your place Terry? lol. I better get this semi paid for first. So I think you mean the signal would come out of PT in digital to be converted to analog by the Blue for monitoring/mixing? Or do you mean run preamp into the Blue and then into PT? If I need an aditional converter just for monitoring wouldn't then something like a Grace 901 or 902 with DAC, thinking budget, be more useful as DAC and monitor control? I mean hell if I know. The 003 probably has monitor control built in right?
Anyhoos Thanks. I'll be ordering the 003 in the very near future, like this week if this one place will do a payment deal.
with me. Well I'll wait first to see you next reply so that I can have some better understanding. Sorry about the flood.
Post by: danickstr on June 22, 2008, 02:16:58 AM
Post by: compasspnt on June 22, 2008, 03:15:46 AM
So ideally you would go mic > good ext mic pre > any analogue processing desired > good external converter > 003 dig in.
Then for monitoring, in a perfevt world, you'd com e out of the 003 into a good D > A converter, into a monitor controller.
Post by: Fletcher on June 22, 2008, 08:12:37 AM
Peace.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 09:41:22 AM
This is for me to learn on and I was advised here to do that as cheaply as possible. I now agree to that. Makes sense. So the answer is no to my original question? It will not handle the job with passable pro sound quality on it's own. I'm afraid I will need more options of lesser expense.
I've read great things about the RNP and RNC and RNLA. Would that suffice as front end preamp? With a Benchmark ADC-1 maybe? Whats that come to? Seems for not much more I could have the Ensemble, but then I'm advised it is best to have the 4K MacBook Pro/Logic Studio to go with it.
Dang. Seems there isn't a way to achieve the quality I want without spending hibucks. So I haven't any actual advantage.
Anyway...right now I gotta go to work. I'll check back later.
You all have a nice day.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 12:22:05 PM
Should I be over at Harvey's Forum since I too have no budget? All I have is some money to spend over some likely long period of time. At present $250-700 a month I can put into this project. Once I get the ex paid off I'll have up to $1200 a month for this, unless I go get a new car for myself.
Maybe I'd be better off just going down to ITRS every once in a while having the studio booked for a few days for me to play around in, and maybe take a few musician friends down with me and just record them? Hell that might be the best idea I've had yet.
Hey Harvey...ya mind teaching me how to properly engineer and record music and stuff in your studio? I can put in as much as 18 hours a week to learn it all.
I don't know what to do, but I won't give up.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 12:31:47 PM
| Fletcher wrote on Sun, 22 June 2008 07:12 |
The API A2D will give you two great channels of mic-pre and two great channels of A/D conversion for a far better price than the Lavry... this should solve most of your issues [eventually, you should investigate a better D/A solution as the D/A in the 003 is also not very good. Peace. |
I like that idea Fletcher about the API A2D. However it's cost I'm not certain about if I still need DAC too. I have to figure something out cause I starting to get slightly discouraged. Only slightly.
Post by: compasspnt on June 22, 2008, 02:14:03 PM
IF you keep levels reasonable low, and not try to push the thing to its ultimate limits, it should deliver reasonably professional output.
Really, it's much more about what music you put into it anyway.
I think I would start with the 003, and then add on as I improved myself enough to require the upgrades.
(Fletcher's API idea sounds like a good one, by the way...I've just never used that particular unit, so can't comment firsthand.)
Post by: bilco on June 22, 2008, 08:02:24 PM
I am nowhere in the league of the gentlemen offering you advice, but I can offer you my experience. I am a semi-pro weekend warrior musician and a songwriter, not an engineer, so bear that in mind.
I have been making multitrack home recordings since at least the late 70s with 4 track reel to reel decks and Portastudio cassettes. I have been in the digital recording world since about 2001 and after throwing a pretty significant amount of money at this, here is what I have found.
*The person doing the engineering is really about 99% of the game.
*You have to have a great song and great musicians to record or the whole exercise is pretty pointless.
*You will make a much more profound difference in your level of skill by learning mic placement and how to listen than you will in spending lots of money on pro gear.
*Apprentice at a local studio for free as time permits if you are really dedicated to this. Don't expect to be paid. Empty the trash, make coffee, whatever they ask. Keep quiet and watch and listen.
*Hearing the difference in preamps and convertors is apparently something that pro engineers and maybe animals can hear, but not me. And I think that as a regularly working musician, I have pretty critical, albeit partially lost, hearing.
*You asked about Harvey's forum. I think it may serve your needs better since you seem to be new to all of this.
*Print the document out at this link and read it constantly.
http://www.itrstudio.com/MIC_CHAT.PDF The knowledge in that thread is worth way more than a $2,000 preamp.
I am not seeing anywhere whether this is just going to be a hobby for you or if you are recording yourself as a singer or songwriter or musician or whether you intend to do this as a business.
If this is just a hobby or you are a part-time musician like me, I say keep it simple and get something along the lines of the Digi 003 or even just an Mbox or the equivalent for learning the basics. None of the pros here are going to be using or recommending those preamps for making commercial release recordings, but for learning purposes and some really high quality demos, they are more than good enough.
In all my searching the web for samples of the differences the gear makes, I have concluded a couple of things:
*Based on many recordings I have heard from home recordists (not in this forum) who have spent a LOT of money on gear, those recordings still do not sound professional to me. There is always a little something missing. Usually it is the song or the voice because they are trying to do it all. But the recordings do not sound like records to me, just really good demos at best.
*Recordings I heard done on a prosumer 1/2" 8 track Tascam by a pro audio engineer here in Austin back in the 80s have a more professional sound than many recordings I have heard done by home recordists with a lot of high end gear. The difference is he did and still does recording for a living.
*It has taken me decades to know everything I know about writing a song and playing bass; I am far from the best, but I have grown because I love playing bass and I am obsessed with songwriting. I have been recording for decades, but I have not progressed that much because engineering is not my passion. I spent somewhere around $5,000 to figure that out........ If I had it to do over knowing what I know now, I would have just bought 2 decent mics and an Mbox for demos and if and when I wanted to record a CD, I would take those tracks to a real studio with a real engineer and let them do what they do best.
Is recording your passion?
One last thought, not sure what kind of truck you drive, but - if I went out and bought the most expensive rig that money can buy..... would it make me a trucker? What makes you a trucker, the years of time you put into it or the brand and quality of the rig you are driving?
bilco
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
| compasspnt wrote on Sun, 22 June 2008 13:14 |
Really, if you're just getting started, the 003 will probably do good enough as it is. IF you keep levels reasonable low, and not try to push the thing to its ultimate limits, it should deliver reasonably professional output. Really, it's much more about what music you put into it anyway. I think I would start with the 003, and then add on as I improved myself enough to require the upgrades. (Fletcher's API idea sounds like a good one, by the way...I've just never used that particular unit, so can't comment firsthand.) |
Thank you Terry, thank you very much. Thats pretty much what I was wanting to know right there. It will work for an entry level DAW on it's own with passable pro sound quality. As long as I'm not buying a $2200 total POS(Digi 003). Thats what I was wondering. Now if it is compatible with my exsisting computers I will soon be in business. I'll order one this week, or at least by July 1st.
I'll scratch this off the check list now.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 22, 2008, 09:01:09 PM
| bilco wrote on Sun, 22 June 2008 19:02 |
If you are truly learning how to be an audio engineer from scratch, I don't think the Digi003 is a bad investment at all. (I have a Digi 002 Rack and an Mbox, so no Control surface advice.) The preamp and converters are going to be usable for you for awhile unless you are a particularly gifted and fast learner. I am nowhere in the league of the gentlemen offering you advice, but I can offer you my experience. I am a semi-pro weekend warrior musician and a songwriter, not an engineer, so bear that in mind. I have been making multitrack home recordings since at least the late 70s with 4 track reel to reel decks and Portastudio cassettes. I have been in the digital recording world since about 2001 and after throwing a pretty significant amount of money at this, here is what I have found. *The person doing the engineering is really about 99% of the game. *You have to have a great song and great musicians to record or the whole exercise is pretty pointless. *You will make a much more profound difference in your level of skill by learning mic placement and how to listen than you will in spending lots of money on pro gear. *Apprentice at a local studio for free as time permits if you are really dedicated to this. Don't expect to be paid. Empty the trash, make coffee, whatever they ask. Keep quiet and watch and listen. *Hearing the difference in preamps and convertors is apparently something that pro engineers and maybe animals can hear, but not me. And I think that as a regularly working musician, I have pretty critical, albeit partially lost, hearing. *You asked about Harvey's forum. I think it may serve your needs better since you seem to be new to all of this. *Print the document out at this link and read it constantly. http://www.itrstudio.com/MIC_CHAT.PDF The knowledge in that thread is worth way more than a $2,000 preamp. I am not seeing anywhere whether this is just going to be a hobby for you or if you are recording yourself as a singer or songwriter or musician or whether you intend to do this as a business. If this is just a hobby or you are a part-time musician like me, I say keep it simple and get something along the lines of the Digi 003 or even just an Mbox or the equivalent for learning the basics. None of the pros here are going to be using or recommending those preamps for making commercial release recordings, but for learning purposes and some really high quality demos, they are more than good enough. In all my searching the web for samples of the differences the gear makes, I have concluded a couple of things: *Based on many recordings I have heard from home recordists (not in this forum) who have spent a LOT of money on gear, those recordings still do not sound professional to me. There is always a little something missing. Usually it is the song or the voice because they are trying to do it all. But the recordings do not sound like records to me, just really good demos at best. *Recordings I heard done on a prosumer 1/2" 8 track Tascam by a pro audio engineer here in Austin back in the 80s have a more professional sound than many recordings I have heard done by home recordists with a lot of high end gear. The difference is he did and still does recording for a living. *It has taken me decades to know everything I know about writing a song and playing bass; I am far from the best, but I have grown because I love playing bass and I am obsessed with songwriting. I have been recording for decades, but I have not progressed that much because engineering is not my passion. I spent somewhere around $5,000 to figure that out........ If I had it to do over knowing what I know now, I would have just bought 2 decent mics and an Mbox for demos and if and when I wanted to record a CD, I would take those tracks to a real studio with a real engineer and let them do what they do best. Is recording your passion? One last thought, not sure what kind of truck you drive, but - if I went out and bought the most expensive rig that money can buy..... would it make me a trucker? What makes you a trucker, the years of time you put into it or the brand and quality of the rig you are driving? bilco |
I haven't figured out how you reply with quotes to more than 1 quote.
Anyway I appreciate your input here too bilco...is that sgt. bilco...no that was with a (k) I think. Anyway, I started taking drum lessons when I was about 7 or 8 every week till I was 14 or 15. I was at one time one of the best drummers you could find around my area of operation unless you liked long drives. Then you could probably find someone better. I haven't really played drums now for probably 10 years, as 1 I burned out, 2 made no money playing where I lived and was too chicken shit to go out in the world and just do it, and 3 had to finally get a real job. 4 ended up in the Army and sold the kit I had before I left for basic. I'd spent about 7K on it at the time. It went out the door for $600.
I have always loved music, particularly the stuff my parents listened to. I have always wanted to be able to sing like some of those few vocalists I really liked. Well now I'm a way better singer than I ever was a drummer. But I drive a truck for a living. I have desired ,pretty much, to live in a recording studio for over 20 years and never did a thing of real significance to even get next to a studio, mostly for lack of funds but also lack of confidence that I could. Now I've got some funding and can at least get an entry level DAW rig. Here I am, though I still drive a truck for a living...thats where the funds come from.
Now...what sort of songs do you like to write?
Thanks again for your input here.
Post by: Steve Hudson on June 23, 2008, 12:15:17 PM
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 23, 2008, 03:13:20 PM
Thanks for your input here though. I want as many opinions as I can get. Terry answered my main concern here though.
Post by: Bill_Urick on June 23, 2008, 05:57:00 PM
Also, get some decent mics and monitors and spend some time on the acoustics forum (get the room right) before you worry about converters, clocks and mic pres.
I know what I'm talking about, because I did everything completely backwards even though I knew better!
Post by: Galil on June 23, 2008, 06:59:53 PM
I have access to a Tascam TSR-8 but can't get tape anymore.
Why not? I just got a delivery of some RMGI and ATR Magnetics tape last week. Not saying that you should stay with the TSR-8, but if your lack of tape stock is really forcing this move, it might not really be necessary.
Check out:
http://www.rmgi-usa.com/rmg_studio.html
http://www.atrtape.com/
Galil
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 23, 2008, 11:27:04 PM
| Galil wrote on Mon, 23 June 2008 17:59 |
Adam The Truck Driver wrote: I have access to a Tascam TSR-8 but can't get tape anymore. Why not? I just got a delivery of some RMGI and ATR Magnetics tape last week. Not saying that you should stay with the TSR-8, but if your lack of tape stock is really forcing this move, it might not really be necessary. Check out: http://www.rmgi-usa.com/rmg_studio.html http://www.atrtape.com/ Galil |
Absolutely awesome! The TSR-8 isn't mine, but I always liked how a lot of stuff sounded on it. It belongs to a friend and I just passed on this info to him. I don't know where he was getting tape before, but he had said he couldn't get it anymore, and I've read some posts about some pro studios having stock piled tape as they knew it was going to become hard to find. If I can get a good supply of tape I think I might rather have a reel to reel myself, a 2" 16 track perhaps...like a Studer A800, or 820. Now what can I get one of those for? lol...time to go surfing.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 24, 2008, 12:02:22 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-APR-24-Multi-Track-2-Tape-Recorder- w-Remote_W0QQitemZ220249271070QQihZ012QQcategoryZ15199QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
What is that machine like? I'd read some article in an industry mag quite a while back that a Studer makes other machines sound lacking in comparison. I can't recall if it was an A80, 800, or 820, or 827...but it was up against an ?Sony/MCI?
and an Otari I believe. Oh well.
Post by: Galil on June 24, 2008, 11:27:00 AM
http://www.blevinsaudioexchange.com/
They are master techs and parts support for these machines. If you have questions about the above machine, they would know.
Galil
Still nothing to say on the Digi 003. Sorry for the thread hijack.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 24, 2008, 08:16:16 PM
Back to the Digi 003/PTLE rig...how many firewire ports are required to run it to full potencial. I'm hoping just one cause thats all this computer has. Hoping I won't need to buy another computer. If I do I might just go analog instead. I don't know.
Post by: Halfway Competent on June 24, 2008, 08:31:07 PM
| Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Sat, 21 June 2008 18:00 |
Does the Digi 003 table top version get any respect here? On it's own merits is it worth a damn at recording and mixing music? I'm going to teach myself how to record and mix. I had initialy though I'd purchase a respectable collection of microphones, a rack of premium front end gear, premium converters, premium computer, premium DAW software and the rest of the required accessories, but was advised not to. I then had the idea to get the microphones, but instead of seperate preamps and converters, something like the Apogee Ensemble would be the way to go for me, but thats still going to lead to major bucks for me to have to spend, before I even learn proper recording. So now I'm on to the Digi 003 or it's competitors if there are any. I've read that M Audio gear leaves something to be desired in sound quality. I already own a Acer PC tower which I'd like upgrade the memory on if I used it as it only has 512MB I think, and this Acer Aspire 5920 Core 2 Duo, 1.66GHz,667MHz FSB, 2MB L2 cache, 3GB DDR2 laptop, both relatively new, and running on Vista. I am not looking to do this for a living/professionally, but do want something that can be capable of at least damn near professional sound quality if not pro sound quality. I want to do simple recordings i.e. 3 miked drums, DI/miked bass, DI/miked guitar cab, and vox. Might have a real horn come in too, or an electronic keyboard player. Might stereo, or 3 track a local church chior. Will certainly record myself on drums, and singing those sappy ballads I like to sing. Anyway back to the Digi 003...any opinions? Experienced opinions? Options? |
Hey Adam,
I own a Digi-002 Rack and have been using it for several years. The only difference I could see between it and the 003 are the look, and the 003 has a little more flexible monitoring section.
Anyway, the 002 converters are decent, though not fantastic. The built-in preamps are pretty unexceptional and unexciting; about Mackie-VLZ grade. (I think the pres in my Mackie Onyx board sound better, actually!) They'll get audio into the unit on a budget.
All that said, for what it is, I think it's a great unit. Unless you really want the control surface, though, get the rack version and save a grand.
I bought a dbx 386 2-ch mic pre with onboard A/D. It sounds notably better than the pres on the 002. The unit costs $500, and is a really good upgrade to the 002/3. I used it, and an Audio Technica 4047 to record the vocals on this track: http://www.tewsnet.com/dropbox/sample.mp3
The guitars and bass were recorded thru the 002 preamps, using Audio Technica 4033 microphones.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 24, 2008, 08:42:17 PM
| Halfway Competent wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 19:31 | ||
Hey Adam, I own a Digi-002 Rack and have been using it for several years. The only difference I could see between it and the 003 are the look, and the 003 has a little more flexible monitoring section. Anyway, the 002 converters are decent, though not fantastic. The built-in preamps are pretty unexceptional and unexciting; about Mackie-VLZ grade. (I think the pres in my Mackie Onyx board sound better, actually!) They'll get audio into the unit on a budget. All that said, for what it is, I think it's a great unit. Unless you really want the control surface, though, get the rack version and save a grand. I bought a dbx 386 2-ch mic pre with onboard A/D. It sounds notably better than the pres on the 002. The unit costs $500, and is a really good upgrade to the 002/3. I used it, and an Audio Technica 4047 to record the vocals on this track: http://www.tewsnet.com/dropbox/sample.mp3 The guitars and bass were recorded thru the 002 preamps, using Audio Technica 4033 microphones. |
That sounds pretty sweet to me here in the truck with my big computer speakers plugged in. 3 way computer speaker big I mean.
Post by: danickstr on June 24, 2008, 10:48:12 PM
If you are just starting, get that setup and when it sounds that good, move on, if you must spend more.
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on June 24, 2008, 11:29:55 PM
| danickstr wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 21:48 |
that track by halfway competent is a testament to what can be done on a small budget and still achieve a nice sound. Could have been a much bigger studio and not gotten much more in the way of clarity, if any at all, depending on the myriad of factors that can plague or enhance a recording. If you are just starting, get that setup and when it sounds that good, move on, if you must spend more. |
I agree 100%. I don't know why I feel/felt a need to spend thousands of dollars on microphones and thousands more on preamps. A friend of mine has an AT4050 which to me has always sounded dreadful but that might of been his preamp, however that AT4047 into that dbx thing with her voice sounds totally delightful. I think. I have to adjust my thinking. *Don't need $20K worth of preamps*
Post by: patrick_pendleton on June 25, 2008, 09:53:49 AM
Post by: Halfway Competent on June 25, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
| patrick_pendleton wrote on Wed, 25 June 2008 06:53 |
If I could have stuck with my 001 I'd still be using it today because it sounds better than both the 002 and 003 (all of which I've had). It is so completely frustrating that the quality of these products has been steadily heading down hill. I just bought an apogee ensemble to use as a front end for the 003 (rack) and it sounds incredible. I only wish I could run tools using it alone. I'll be checking out logic I guess. Anyone out there make the switch? |
Actually, I have to respectfully disagree on the Digi-001. The preamps on that unit were abysmal; everything I recorded through it sounded flat and gritty. Perhaps, though, with good preamps attached to it, it sounds better.
My biggest gripe with digidesign's newer hardware is the faceplates made of large, bulgy pieces of plastic. The designs seem to be getting only more toy-like.
Post by: RM on June 25, 2008, 02:30:56 PM
About Logic: I have made the switch. Or, more accurately, am gradually making the switch.
It's different, not necessarily better or worse on the surface. However, out of the box, sound-wise, it's great! Just don't expect it to behave like Pro Tools in a number of it's functions; expect to spend some time with it to get your workflow down.
I switched because of the hardware issue with Digidesign. I'm sure many are.
To make this relevant to the original post. If you're starting from scratch and are trying to decide what digi system to buy, I would say that the Ensemble with Logic (even Express is great for beginners!) could be an excellent purchase.
Just a thought.
Post by: Halfway Competent on June 25, 2008, 06:19:26 PM
| danickstr wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 19:48 |
that track by halfway competent is a testament to what can be done on a small budget and still achieve a nice sound. Could have been a much bigger studio and not gotten much more in the way of clarity, if any at all, depending on the myriad of factors that can plague or enhance a recording. If you are just starting, get that setup and when it sounds that good, move on, if you must spend more. |
Thanks! I'm glad to hear you all like the sound of the track.
A good part of it is that she's just really good...
Post by: danickstr on June 26, 2008, 12:00:02 AM
Post by: patrick_pendleton on June 26, 2008, 10:25:47 AM
Regarding Logic, I have to say that I am really digging it. There are some things that I still try to do pt-style and that don't operate the same way but after going through the key command list and doing some customization i feel like I can really work quickly now. Still growing pains but I'm progressing.
Post by: trock on July 07, 2008, 02:50:02 PM
it comes with cubase LE
you firewire connect it to your pc, load cubase and it comes ready with templates that map the N12 to cubase.
the pre's, eq, comp, and verb are pretty darn good and you get 8 full channel strips in, plus 2 stereo tracks, plus full transport control over cubase, as well as the ability to run 2 sets of speakers off of it and also 2 headphones.
i use the N12 as my studio hub now and use it with the full version of cubase and its been great
that being said you can then also route your tracks back out thru the N12 or N8 to use the mixer's eq, comp, verb etc and offload some CPU or use it in conjunction with plugs in cubase and the hardware mixer, all in all its a very handy all in one setup
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/n12/
Post by: Adam The Truck Driver on July 07, 2008, 09:35:22 PM
Thanks for all the input everyone. I just decided to go with what I want to start with.