Post by: j.hall on April 21, 2004, 04:14:51 PM
day 10 we sheet rocked the machine room ceiling and walls with two layers of 1/2" rock. finished running electrical, mounted the sub panel and built a palet (on locking casters) for the 97lb 5kva isolation transformer.
Day 10 Front Wall
Day 10 Sub Panel
Day 10 Transformer
Post by: j.hall on April 27, 2004, 03:05:16 PM
we actually did this work wednesday of last week. and have since moved on to other jobs i haven't taken pics of.
day 11:
two layers of 1/2" sheet rock on the ceiling.....i now can honestly give my full respect to full time sheet rockers. this is brutal work, and i ate enough sheet rock dust to hold me over till breakfast the next day!!!
with out a roto zip this job would be pure agony!
Day 11 Ceiling
since then, we've done two layers of mud and tape....need to sand and continuing mudding. and i'm almost done with all the caulking.
Post by: NelsonL on May 01, 2004, 02:45:10 AM
Day 10 Transformer[/quote]
Damn dude, your shop has some "big iron!"
Post by: j.hall on May 03, 2004, 10:31:10 AM
damn, day 12? if i had more time to work on this thing, i'd have been done weeks ago. hahahahaha
all right, i've finished all the caulking. and all the fiber board is up. i bought some foam board nails that come with plastic washers installed. i cut half the washer off so i could get themm up close to the stud. i sued these to hold the fiber board in place.
we cut the fiber board to fit very tight in the stud spaces and probably didn't need the nails, but we figured, might as well have some insurance. i'm not going to finish this space off just to have a piece of fiber board work itself loose and render that trap useless.
if any of you are doing a project like this, i can get you specifics on what we used and how we installed it.
note: since i have electrical boxes in some stud spaces, they need to air tight as well. i caulked all the way around them, and i caulked all the entry holes into them. EVERYTHING is sealed off. like i said, i'm not going to all this effort just to skimp on one little thing that will end up creating problems later.
i'm WAY over budget, but there's no turning back now. it has to get done, and it HAS to be right.
Day 12 Front Wall
Day 12 Back Wall
some spaces were particularily hard to work around and we had to get creative with how we cut the fiber board. if anyone wants some close up details of any of that just let me know.
one thing to note, we used 8 full sheets (4'x10') of 7 pound density 1" thick fiber board to do this space. about 5 sheets in our razor knives started having trouble. they look fine, but have been dulled down. you need a good sharp knife to cut this stuff. it cuts like butter witha fresh blade, cuts like a plastic knife on a steak with a dull blade.
Post by: chachi on May 07, 2004, 01:57:32 PM
oh, and i'm new here, so sorry if you've talked about this before, but what's the transformer for?
thanks,
alex
Post by: j.hall on May 07, 2004, 02:28:08 PM
basically, the transformer merely isolates my audio gear from any line noise that might happen from the house.
yes, i'm doing all the work myself, the two guys helping me are doing some of it too.
currently i have one more wire to run (ground wire from my grounding rod to my main service panel) and then the whole thing will be ready for hook up.
i worked for an electrician a few summers in high school and then i did low volt work (alarms, CATV, phones, CCTV) for a few years after that.
doing this myself is no big deal. if you don't have much knowledge of electrical service, you should hire a certified electrician to do all the hook up for you.
BTW, all circuits that audio gear plugs into must be home run back to your service panel or sub panel. other circuits don't matter.
hope this helps,
j.hall
Post by: chachi on May 07, 2004, 04:10:22 PM
thanks,
alex
Post by: j.hall on May 07, 2004, 04:46:13 PM
how much current do you want?
my trannie will do a max of 40 amps, can be hooked up at 240, or 120, and can do step down and isolation.
i bought it on ebay for 350, cost 60 bucks to ship, and new it probably cost 1200 bucks.
you really have to know what you need, and know what to look for if you choose to hit ebay. but once you get some research done, ebay is where it's at.
just make sure it's been tested....."the david riddle company" does big power stuff and they are on ebay, that's who i bought from....and they were great to deal with. went the extra mile to make sure they were selling me the right thing
at 97 pounds, who wants to get the wrong thing.....
Post by: j.hall on May 11, 2004, 04:40:44 PM
found a really cool product for minimizing sanding of mudd dust
5 gal. buck that hooks up to a shop vac and attaches to a sander. put a screen on it, kick on the shop vac, and it sucks it into the bucket as you sand......AWESOME
priming the staircase paneling and hallway, and sanding the last layer of mud and prepping for texturing the ceiling.
after that, clean up, and start hanging the 1/4" birch plywood.
Post by: floodstage on May 13, 2004, 08:20:28 AM
Post by: j.hall on May 13, 2004, 09:10:04 AM
i'll ask him and let you know.
Post by: Beezoboy on May 20, 2004, 11:57:18 AM
This just shows us how smart our dads really are.
If I need:
-Financial advice
-Motivation
-Home improvement advice
-Cooking
-Gardening
-and tons of other stuff
I ask my dad.
Beez
PS. Looking great J!!!
Post by: j.hall on May 20, 2004, 02:53:02 PM
working on cars, plumbing, electrical, paint, framing.....seriously, you name it, he can do it.....most everything with a good level of quality and skill
so, i pretty much held the light and learned.....in high school i was allowed to start tearing into cars and the like
now we just do all these projects together cause it goes so much faster with two people that don't need to do any hand holding.
if we could have gone at the basement every day full time, probably would have had it done in three weeks
Post by: Fibes on May 20, 2004, 03:24:26 PM
Glad your dad got cleaned up after the hopper mishap.
Post by: j.hall on May 20, 2004, 04:27:21 PM
yeah, i couldn't get the vaccuum set right. the sanding "handle" kept sucking itself to the ceiling make it just about impossible to move it. i sanded about a 4 sq foot area with NO DUST on the floor or me.....but just couldn't take it.....
maybe my shop vac was too strong, i don't know.
plus i didn't have poll attachment for the sanding vaccuum, that sucked!!!
got two coats of ceiling paint up last night and means......the ceiling is done
FINALLY
it's been the bane of my existance for two months now
Post by: drew on May 25, 2004, 08:52:39 AM
Post by: j.hall on May 25, 2004, 09:57:09 AM
day 13:
i've already typed about it, but i shot a few pics anyway, and i'll post em
they are sort of boring but oh well
ceiling has two coats fo paint, machine room ceiling, hall way, and staircase are the same. machine room walls, hallway, and staircase are primed and ready for paint.
Day 13 Ceiling
Day 13 Stairs
Day 14:
more like a half day (last night to be exact)
we bought all the paneling, and stocked it in the garage on saturday. sunday i started painting trim in the hallway.
last night we got the entire south wall paneled, and electrical boxes cut out and caulked. we have reached the point where i've started repeating in my head......"i sure hope this works"
Day 14 South Wall
you can see the trim color a tiny bit in the hall way door jam.
here is what we did to get an air tight seal on a large piece of paneling that stretches multiple stud spaces.....
cut the sheet to fit first (measure twice, cut once.....this stuff is expenssive)
hold it up and check the fit, make any adjustments needed.
mark the studs on the floor and ceiling.....this just makes things easier, especially when you can't afford to miss, and ruin the integrity of the air tight seal.
next, you pull the sheet away, and caulk the studs. i was pretty generous with the caulk as you can't see how well it seals up the paneling, and i'm not runing a thousand nails up and down the paneling to press it on super tight.
put the paneling back up and get it pressed in and smoothed out tight.
"hang it" but running one nail in the upper two corners. this allows one guy to let go, and the other to start nailing
side note:
we tested the trim nailer on a scrap piece of paneling to ensure we had the proper pressure and nails for the job.
the trim nailer was too strong, and the nails were too thin
the braid nailer was the same. we ended up using 5/8 finishing staples as they did the best job holding the paneling with out ripping through it.
as i attached the paneling to the wall, i would be "smoothing it" and pressing it against the caulked stud with one hand and shooting in staples with the other. working my way from upper left to lower right, or vice versa. i figured this just helped get it hung nice and tight.
we drilled a 1/8 pilot hole in the center of each electrical box. while i was working on whatever and my dad wasn't cutting the next piece of paneling, he'd use the roto-zip and cut out the boxes. after that, i'd come along behind him and suck out the saw dust and caulk up the inside edges of the box, where it meets the paneling.
should i be posting pics of "while we're working"?
i just take pics at the end of each major job. didn't think of showing the steps until i just typed all that.
Post by: j.hall on May 25, 2004, 09:57:47 AM
day 13:
i've already typed about it, but i shot a few pics anyway, and i'll post em
they are sort of boring but oh well
ceiling has two coats fo paint, machine room ceiling, hall way, and staircase are the same. machine room walls, hallway, and staircase are primed and ready for paint.
the ceiling pic below is unpainted. just a pic of the textured ceiling.
Day 13 Ceiling
Day 13 Stairs
Day 14:
more like a half day (last night to be exact)
we bought all the paneling, and stocked it in the garage on saturday. sunday i started painting trim in the hallway.
last night we got the entire south wall paneled, and electrical boxes cut out and caulked. we have reached the point where i've started repeating in my head......"i sure hope this works"
Day 14 South Wall
you can see the trim color a tiny bit in the hall way door jam.
here is what we did to get an air tight seal on a large piece of paneling that stretches multiple stud spaces.....
cut the sheet to fit first (measure twice, cut once.....this stuff is expensive)
hold it up and check the fit, make any adjustments needed.
mark the studs on the floor and ceiling.....this just makes things easier, especially when you can't afford to miss, and ruin the integrity of the air tight seal.
next, you pull the sheet away, and caulk the studs. i was pretty generous with the caulk as you can't see how well it seals up the paneling, and i'm not running a thousand nails up and down the paneling to press it on super tight.
put the paneling back up and get it pressed in and smoothed out tight.
"hang it" but running one nail in the upper two corners. this allows one guy to let go, and the other to start nailing
side note:
we tested the trim nailer on a scrap piece of paneling to ensure we had the proper pressure and nails for the job.
the trim nailer was too strong, and the nails were too thin
the braid nailer was the same. we ended up using 5/8 finishing staples as they did the best job holding the paneling with out ripping through it.
as i attached the paneling to the wall, i would be "smoothing it" and pressing it against the caulked stud with one hand and shooting in staples with the other. working my way from upper left to lower right, or vice versa. i figured this just helped get it hung nice and tight.
we drilled a 1/8 pilot hole in the center of each electrical box. while i was working on whatever and my dad wasn't cutting the next piece of paneling, he'd use the roto-zip and cut out the boxes. after that, i'd come along behind him and suck out the saw dust and caulk up the inside edges of the box, where it meets the paneling.
should i be posting pics of "while we're working"?
i just take pics at the end of each major job. didn't think of showing the steps until i just typed all that.
Post by: j.hall on May 25, 2004, 10:00:27 AM
i wanted birch....but what they had SUCKED, the pine was all gone, and the oak looked really nice.....i don't have time at this point to wait.
Post by: j.hall on May 27, 2004, 11:29:40 AM
diffusor panels framed out, 703 cut to fit and installed, and 1/4" peg board cut and drilled out randomly with various size hole saws
Day 15 Diffusor 1
Day 15 Diffusor 2
Post by: xonlocust on May 27, 2004, 07:09:53 PM
working hard, or hardly working - huh buddy?
sorry, i couldn't resist!! looking great!
Post by: j.hall on May 27, 2004, 11:51:54 PM
| xonlocust wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 18:09 |
hey j.- working hard, or hardly working - huh buddy? sorry, i couldn't resist!! looking great! |
you shouldn't be talking....."Mr. i'll have my room done before you do"
i should have bet money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: j.hall on June 01, 2004, 10:25:07 AM
Day 16:
north wall paneled, and various other things cleaned up and taken care of.
Day 16 North Wall 1
Day 16 North Wall 2
Day 16 North Wall 3
day 17:
it's all starting to blur together....hahaha
we finished all the the paneling (which is a two person job)
from there, my dad started doing trim work, and i started re-building the diffusor panels (the previous ones were built quickly, and they weren't square). i used scrap wood that was cheap and i wanted to use something better that would be more sturdy and easier to work with (pine).
Day 17 Front Wall
Day 17 South Wall
Day 17 Cable Pass-Thru
the one corner looks like it has chicken pox, the nail gun had a slight malfunction on us..........nothing a little putty won't cure.
Day 18:
i finished off the diffusor panels, and i'm much happier with them
and we bought all the rest of the trim......we are closing in on the end.
Day 18 Diffusors
Day 18 Diffusors 2
Day 18 Trim
Post by: drumsound on June 01, 2004, 05:05:53 PM
Post by: j.hall on June 02, 2004, 10:30:33 AM
the surface area
or the size and placement of the holes?
surface area is based on the listening postion and the stud spacing of the walls at the listening position.....i only need them where my ears are going to be, and i need them to line up with the studs....
the holes are just random as i wanted them to diffuse and absorb random high frequencies....hence the peg board to begin with. i used 1" up to 2 1/2" hole saws just randomly drilled from there.
Post by: j.hall on June 02, 2004, 11:38:10 AM
applied one coat of urethane to the front wall, north wall, and all trim that will not be painted and needs to match paneling.
i used a high grade, low odor, oil based urethane with a 4" stain brush that wasn't cheap. urethane was from a company called "zar" and went on very nicely, and i wasn't too high when finished.....hahahaha
Day 19 Front Wall
Day 19 North Wall
Post by: drew on June 05, 2004, 09:02:24 PM
drew
Post by: j.hall on June 07, 2004, 09:18:59 AM
and their both done
the real answer was, "until it's nice and smooth and i'm happy"
but that ended up being two coats as the urethane is pretty high quality and i used a really fine grit (320) sand paper to sand down the first coat
then we used tack clothes to wipe up all the dust (much better then just brushing it off as that just kicks it up in the air)
got a few more pics to post once i find time to get them loaded up and converted down to a smaller size.
Post by: j.hall on June 10, 2004, 10:40:06 AM
i'm painting like a fool
sick of breathing paint fumes.....
no pics, i think i might save the pics till it's done
at this point, the finishing touches are being applied and it might be cooler to just show you guys what it looks like done
instead of pics of trim painted, then walls, then fabric going up......
tell me if you want pics and i'll think about it...HA
Post by: j.hall on June 15, 2004, 02:29:03 PM
day 20: (if that's even accurate anymore)
we fabric wrapped the back wall, put up the ceiling trim and baseboard, hung the machine room door.....
Day 20 Front Wall
Day 20 Back Wall
Post by: Gregg Seibert on June 20, 2004, 11:59:19 AM
How did you seal off the recessed ceiling lights? Won't those just allow the bass to pass right on through to the upstairs? Just curious. If this was covered on some earlier thread, sorry for the interruption/ Thanks!
Post by: j.hall on June 21, 2004, 12:51:56 PM
this thread is meant to be interactive
didn't seal them off at all
not to worried about sound leakage
my home was built in 1947. it was built very well, but it was obviously built out of wood and plaster.
i can't possibly do anything to stop the sound from going upstairs with wood construction
two layers of sheet rock was to merely "help out"
i decided to not even mess with the can lights after reading all the lit on them and seeing that heat gain from the can is a pretty serious issue
Post by: floodstage on June 21, 2004, 02:59:57 PM
If you want acoustically sealed lighting cans:
1) Buy cans that are sealed (airtite) AND rated for direct insulation contact.
If you don't get cans that are rated for direct insulation contact and you pack the insulation on anyway, the fire department will be visiting you. Do NOT f**k around with this detail!
BTW, Home Depot/Lowes/etc normally do not stock cans that are sealed and rated, you normally have to get them from a "real" lighting supply house.
While you are buying the cans, also buy gaskets sets for them. The gaskets are thin vinyl w/adhesive (peal and stick - like a white bumper sticker) and are not very expensive (less than a buck). The gaskets bridge the gap between the drywall and the can.
2) Install the cans.
3) Pack the insulation around them tightly, behind and around, no voids. I prefer rock wool insulation for this job. It's meant for sound proofing and it will not ever catch on fire. (fiberglass insulation will burn if you heat it enough, I know by 1st hand experience!)
4) Install drywall and finish it, taking care to cut the holes for the can tight. (A Rotozip is worth it's weight in Latinum for this job).
5) Install gaskets.
6) install lighting trim rings which will cover the gasket.
This method isn't as good as a ceiling w/no perforations, but it works WAY better than standard cans.
Post by: j.hall on June 21, 2004, 03:44:00 PM
they had sealed cans in stock all the way down to "don't put anything around this can EVER"
i bought cans that allowed standard 100 watt lightbulbs to be used with insulation (R19) placed no closer then 24" on either side.
this was good enough for what i was doing and they cost about 6 bucks each
the sealed versions were about 18 a piece and i just didn't need that sort of light. why spend the cash on something that isn't going to bring any benefit to the game
the hardwood floor of my living directly above is going to (and does) act like a giant diaphragm no matter what can light i put in.
Post by: floodstage on June 22, 2004, 10:01:38 AM
Carry on!
(and while you're at it, carry that BIG right on in, and wire that sucka up!)
Post by: j.hall on June 22, 2004, 10:46:10 AM
| floodstage wrote on Tue, 22 June 2004 09:01 |
(and while you're at it, carry that BIG right on in, and wire that sucka up!) |
yeah, that will be a lot of fun....let me tell you
i'm dreading moving the tape deck
UUUGGGGGG
Post by: j.hall on June 24, 2004, 04:27:46 PM
all the trim has been painted, two coats, in some places three
i'm swamped mixing a few things here and there for the next few days and won't have time to tape off the hallway and staircase to paint the walls
that should go pretty quick though....and i can probably get both coats up in one day considering it's high grade laytex paint.....it'll dry in a few hours...
my tech is currently working on building up all the cabling i need
i was planning on doing this myself but i'm flat out of time, he isn't very busy now, and he's better at it then i am.....
PT is sitting in boxes in my living room, along with a 17" plasma display and no computer
all the channels from the amek are sitting in static bags and bubble wraped....i ship em out tomorrow to get the VCA's upgraded
Fred Forssell is reviewing the schematics of the big's input channels for potential mods....
as far as the build out goes, i have to fabric wrap the diffusor panels, build and fabric wrap the cloud above the mix position, lay the laminent flooring for the mix area, and have the carpet installed......
all of that can be done in one or two days
we are very close kids......very close
Post by: NelsonL on June 24, 2004, 05:32:26 PM
Thanks for running this thread, its been really interesting to watch the room progress.
Looking forward to hearing what comes out of it.
Post by: bblackwood on June 24, 2004, 09:53:00 PM
Post by: j.hall on June 25, 2004, 09:25:35 AM
| bblackwood wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 20:53 |
I just want to say that J is doing it right and I want to applaud him for it. He has blown a ton of dough on this thing already, but I know it will pay him back in spades... |
Thanks B-rad and rattleyour....
at this point, there is simply no turning back, a firm eye on the future and "awwwwwwaaaayyyy we go"
Post by: Invisible Member on June 25, 2004, 12:42:37 PM
I have some questions though about room size, shape and areas where you knew you were going to have to compromise.
Peace,
Dennis
Post by: j.hall on June 25, 2004, 03:23:55 PM
the design is all his, the execution is all mine
the only compromise i know of is the fact that i'm building it in my basement and not starting from scratch
other then that, i've done everything B-rad has laid out, and i've done maticulously and with the best quality materials i can get my hands on.....
Post by: bblackwood on June 26, 2004, 07:08:36 PM
Post by: meverylame on June 28, 2004, 02:14:09 PM
Post by: Invisible Member on June 28, 2004, 02:21:06 PM
Length, Width, ceiling height for starters. Are walls parallel? If they are what was the workaround. I know there is alot of trapping and diffusing going on in J's room but I have no reference to front or back without a floor plan to orient me to the pictures. Any ideas on how to convert a hollow door into a diffuser or bass trap? My problem was that the room sounded pretty decent...until I put stuff into it, maybe too much stuff. Is there a arrangement of gear that was worked out to minimize nulls. jhalls space look similar in size and Im looking to change somethings around.
Thanks,
Dennis
Post by: j.hall on June 28, 2004, 03:06:57 PM
B-rad worked of "to scale" plans i sent him via CAD and PDF
once the design was done, i have not updated any of my CAD files
however.....attached is a pdf of just the "mix" room in it's un-altered state
the only change that would afect plan view is the addition of the machine room wall about 4 to 5 feet back from the front wall
in the pdf, down is north, up is south.....
the south doorway leads to the hallway.
ceiling height of raw joyce to floor (floor is not level, it slopes to the drains in other rooms) is 7'-8" or something like that
B-rad can fill in all the details after you look at this pdf
Post by: Invisible Member on June 28, 2004, 04:22:55 PM
I did my design in CATIA 3-D and even did the wiring in 3-D.
My basic control room is "nearly" identical to yours except where I made a mixer nook. The Floor plan is hard to read but it gives you the idea. I have a sloping floor too, except it sloped diagonally and messed me up. http://mypeoplepc.com/members/atomictoyz/themusicroom/id9.ht ml
I was wondering if moving the couch to the opposite end and putting mixer where the couch sits now would be better to get the back wall farther from the monitors. That means tearing out the amp isolation cabinet and getting rid of the wall unit with all my spare nearfields and duplicators.
Peace,
Dennis
Post by: bblackwood on June 30, 2004, 10:04:16 AM
| Dennis wrote on Mon, 28 June 2004 13:21 |
Length, Width, ceiling height for starters. |
Those were all fixed dimensions, other than length, which was modified for a machine room. Space was at a premium, and though it a smallish space, I have treated rooms this size before with very good results...
| Quote: |
Are walls parallel? If they are what was the workaround. |
Yes, they are parallel. Basically, with a room of this size, you have to basically add bass trapping on as many surfaces as possible, and the room modes are often close together and at somewhat higher (more problematic) frequencies due to the dimensions. So we built diaphragmatic absorbers into the walls all the way around the room and are adding hinged, randomized diffuser/absorbers that will mount at an angle on the walls on either side of the mix positions, insuring 1st reflections are simply directed to the rear of the room. IME, simply deadening the front of the room to tame first reflections makes the room 'too dead' - by steering that energy to the back of the room, you allow the room to sound natural but don't compromise imaging in the mix position.
We're also adding an absorptive cloud above the mix position to control ceiling reflections. Some added absorption may be necessary after he gets everything in the room, but my basic formula is:
1] Trap the bass. get it a smooth as possible on the bottom. doesn't have to be perfect, the engineer will learn the room, but he needs to hear it fairly well...
2] Steer 1st reflections to the rear of the room. I don't want the room 'dead', but simply want to make sure the engineer can hear the spatial cues accurately.
3] Absorb anything that sticks out. obviously, a hard flat surface (ceiling) just above the desk will cause issues, so let's insure those go away. Ceiling is too low to also angle this piece, so it will be purely absorptive. This is OK, most speaker don't have very good vertical off-axis response - not much energy is lost and what is absorbed is fairly inaccurate anyway.
Hope this clarifies a bit...
Post by: Invisible Member on June 30, 2004, 01:15:59 PM
I think I get it. I think I have to lose(relocate) my tall rolling rack and get the door behind the mix position to absorb more bottom end. Because the door and the joist above it prevents me from simply putting a bass trap there I have to turn the door into a bass and corner trap both. Darn that going to be funky. My pink elephant has me cornered! Ive beeb beating around the bush on the door problem.
Thanks again,
Peace,
Dennis
Post by: Bo on July 01, 2004, 05:41:52 PM
by the way, long time, no chat. my fault as usual.
Post by: j.hall on July 06, 2004, 03:49:53 PM
all right, i've been setting dealines for months now
but this thing is coming to a close here
i'm going to officially say, two weeks......
i'll be listening to familiar program and getting a feel for the new room
i will say this, i feel pretty good about being the basement considering we've been getting POUNDED with rain for about 3 weeks here (not flooding, but it rains hard about every other day) and i haven't had a drop of water down there
so....
i'll snap a few pics tonight or tomorrow before the carpet goes in (mix position will have laminent flooring for my chair to roll on)
massive cleaning of the other basement areas will be required before gear moves in.
Post by: j.hall on July 14, 2004, 06:44:32 PM
everything is done BUT
no glass, diffusors not hung (waiting for carpet install....which just got done today), cloud above mix position
pics of room cleaned up and prepped for carpet
Back Wall
Front Wall
Post by: jthoen on July 21, 2004, 11:23:25 PM
Anyway I had a few quick questions. 1) Post some more photos J. Hall. the people are waiting to see what your new kick ass room will look like and sound like. 2) post some more photos! 3) how does it sound? Im really hoping its good! 4) how loud is it else where in the house? I live in an apt. currently and do all my mixing in it. How loud it is to everyone else is important to me, granted it is your house and you might not have to worry about that as much I do but im sure your wife and kid will mind if it is to loud. 5) related to 3, how do the diffuser and cloud work, they look great from what I have seen they seem pretty easy to make. 6)maybe more of a brad question how do diaphragmatic absorbers work? From what I can find they seem like real traps old design with a board resonating with the low end a air gap then 703/705 type material all air seal. Is this basically right? Would love to hear more. 7) last one, what beer you been drinking, sam smith again? Here it has been summit epa, bells oberon and anchor summer!
thats should be it for now, I really am looking forward to seeing and hearing some new mp3's of your mixes. Keep up the great work
joe
Post by: j.hall on July 22, 2004, 10:45:16 AM
| jthoen wrote on Wed, 21 July 2004 22:23 |
First off I would like to applaud you J. I believe you are totally making the right decision, ie pro tools and this room. It looks sweet and im sure with brad behind you its going to sound great, making your mixes that much better! |
thanks for the kind words.....i just got back from Seattle last night, and was welcomed by a bunch of bills for various studio stuff i've needed to buy. needless to say, i went to bed questioning if i should have done this.
i still think it is the right thing to do.....
| Quote: |
An1) Post some more photos J. Hall. the people are waiting to see what your new kick ass room will look like and sound like. 2) post some more photos! |
ok, ok.....i've been out of town
the console is sitting on the floor in the corner of the room right now....carpet is in, laminent flooring is in.
we have to hang the diffusors, build the cloud, and hang it. then it's done
some touch up paint as well.
| Quote: |
3) how does it sound? Im really hoping its good! |
don't know yet.....and trust me i want to know
Quote
4) how loud is it else where in the house? I live in an apt. currently and do all my mixing in it. How loud it is to everyone else is important to me, granted it is your house and you might not have to worry about that as much I do but im sure your wife and kid will mind if it is to loud.
[/quoted]
well.....i don't know that just yet either
but my band used to practice down there before the renovation (look at picture number 1 in the old recpit for details)
no acoustic treatments at all, and there was only a drop ceiling
my band is REALLY loud......we would shake the enitre first floor of the house, my wife could escape by going up to the bedrooms on the second floor, she said it wasn't bad at all up there and in the back bedroom it was pretty much non-existent.
mixing won't be nearly as loud and i put up two layers of gyp. on the ceiling with R-19 behind it (R-19 will only give me about 3dB of reduction......i did it cause it was cheap and easy and figured it was the right way to do it.
the first level of my house is all hardwood floors (built in 1947) all wood construction. so basically, my entire first floor acts as a giant diaphram no matter what i do to the ceiling in the basement.
we'll see what happens
the only real issue is mxing late at night after my son goes to bed....shouldn't be a problem.
Quote:
5) related to 3, how do the diffuser and cloud work, they look great from what I have seen they seem pretty easy to make.
this is simple.....the diffusors are not unique, but are a "randomly fine tuned" so to speak
instead of using a solid piece of plywood and just reflecting sound to the back wall, we used pegboard. basically, the size of the hole dictates what frequencies will be absorded by it. (703 is directly behind the pegboard, the whole thing is wrapped in acoustically transperant fabric for looks only)
from there, B-rad had me drill, again randomly, different size holes (i used hole saws and a drill) on each panel. largest hole i cut was 2 1/4" i believe
the idea is to absorb random frequencies and to reflect random....
Quote:
7) last one, what beer you been drinking, sam smith again? Here it has been summit epa, bells oberon and anchor summer!
i drank a lot of pacific NW beer while in seattle. lots of ales. i had a few really nice stouts as well
at home, i've been so busy in the studio and getting things done i haven't had much time to try new beers
boddington's has been a staple
during the "harder" construction phase of the build out (seems like a year ago) we were drinking a lot of new castle.
Post by: j.hall on July 23, 2004, 09:43:47 AM
these just show the carpet and flooring
doors are off the hinges because they don't fit right now....we need to plane them down a bit since the carpet was added.
we will be finishing the build out phase on saturday (tomorrow).
Front Wall
Back Wall
Post by: Invisible Member on July 23, 2004, 12:21:06 PM
Peace,
Dennis
Post by: j.hall on July 23, 2004, 03:49:40 PM
my wife added seattle to our very short list of cities she wants to live in
next time i head out there, i'll be sure to let you know
Post by: archtop on July 24, 2004, 03:50:34 PM
Hey Dennis I think I got your band "Submission" tonight, you should come on down.
I'll be the guy asking the bass player to turn down
Post by: Invisible Member on July 26, 2004, 10:50:35 AM
| archtop wrote on Sat, 24 July 2004 12:50 |
Yes by all means holler next time next time your in Seattle. Hey Dennis I think I got your band "Submission" tonight, you should come on down. I'll be the guy asking the bass player to turn down |
You mean up?
Dave called me late Saturday afternoon and invited me. Im sorry I missed it again. Just too tired to go. I on some new ADHD meds and Im getting sleepiness dips towards the end of the day. My wife caught me napping on the studio couch with her new Shih Tzu puppy.
Dave says your the best live guy in the Seattle metro area!
jhall,
EMP is great, I think the SCi fi place will be a place to take my kids, EMP wasn't interesting to them for the most part. Seattle is a nice place to visit, so I live in the burbs to keep it that way. Tacoma has a nice Glass exhibit and a new zoo exhibit.
Peace,
Dennis
Post by: j.hall on July 26, 2004, 11:07:19 AM
the studio build out is complete, sans door hardware on the machine room door and putting the HVAC diffusors back in.
all but one room in the eintire basement has been "de-sheet rock dusted" and i'm pretty much ready to move in.
as soon as i get the ladder and a few other things out of there, i'll snap some final pics and post em up.
Post by: floodstage on July 26, 2004, 06:14:50 PM
I assume it will be a diffusion (not absorption) style cloud.
Got any links/advice on cloud design?
The reason I ask is this thread got me motivated to get back to work on my room's acoustics. I recently installed a number of absorption panels and bass traps in my room and I'm now ready to build a cloud but I don't have good info on cloud design. Help!
Post by: j.hall on July 26, 2004, 11:09:15 PM
i wish you would have posted on friday, i would have taken pics of the building of it
which took about an hour from start to finish
my cloud is built, fabric wrapped and hung in place
i'll get a smaller pic of it up tomorrow.....my camera takes large "high rez" pics that some complain about the DL time
anyway......my cloud is straight absorbtion
B-rad didn't want any chance of reflections between the gyp ceiling and the hardwood floor i sit above.
it's merely a wood frame holding a piece of 1" thick 703, fabric wrapped, and hung using eye hooks so i can easily take it down if needed.
pics tomorrow, i promise. but only of the cloud, i'm building suspense here!!!!!
Post by: j.hall on July 27, 2004, 09:57:02 AM
first pic is from the rear of the room looking forward toward the front wall.
Cloud 1
second pic is of the eye hook hanging method we used.
four hooks run up into ceiling joice, eye hooks placed in wood framing of absorber panel.
all hooks face the same direction so you can easily lift up the panel and hang it.
Cloud 2
third pic is from the front of the room looking back
Cloud 3
Post by: j.hall on July 28, 2004, 10:41:35 AM
here it is......
a few pics of an empty room. still haven't put up the machine room door hardware, but that hardly stops me from moving in to the room (which i have already started)
for a little perspective, i'll re-post the first pic i took.
Day 1 Front Wall
Front Wall Final
Back Wall Final
rear diffusor
Electrical
i'll take some shots tonight of the room getting put together tonight
Post by: xonlocust on July 28, 2004, 06:26:39 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 02, 2004, 11:35:15 AM
Front Wall
rear of console
Machine Room
Post by: meverylame on August 02, 2004, 01:42:00 PM
I'm sorry
Post by: j.hall on August 02, 2004, 04:41:32 PM
after moving the console, tape machine, equipment racks, and various other things......sitting on the floor for hours zip tieing off wires and making sure it's all nice and neat
i'm having trouble getting out of bed. my back hurts just thinking about all this.
Post by: j.hall on August 03, 2004, 12:45:14 PM
put up the speakers last night
great googly moogly, hands down the best room i've ever heard
B-rad is the man
i have a few tweaks to make to the speaker positions and the diffusor angles
but let's put it this way
i listened to about 15 songs that i THOUGHT i knew inside and out....basically, my reference mixes i've used for a long time
i had NO idea.....i'm hearing things in these mixes i've never heard before
it's basically like i've NEVER heard them prior to now
i mean really HEARD them
depth of field, stereo imaging, low end, broadband clarity.........it's ABSURD
as i told B-rad, i'm having trouble positioning the speakers cause i'm flat out in awe of what i've got now.
Post by: blackcat on August 03, 2004, 01:23:50 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 03, 2004, 01:26:46 PM
it's close.....
Post by: Tousana on August 04, 2004, 04:13:14 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 09, 2004, 11:10:15 AM
everything is REALLY close to being done. almost time for you and mikey to jump in a car and head down here.
anyway.....i got pictures
current status of room:
Front Wall
a little blurry, but you'll get the point here....
Front Wall 2
now, if you notice to the right of the console is a 17" apple display that has been rack mounted with a shelf for a keyboard and trackball.
above all that are my patchbays. people have been asking how i did all that.
first off, the rackmount kit for the apple display is from marathon computers.
secondly, my dad picked up a nie piece of polished aluminum for the keyboard shelf.
i marked it all up and used a drill press to drill it out, and mounted it to the display rackmount.
seemed a little flimsy so we picked up some good angled aluminum and cutting wheel for the table saw.
i cut it to size, and then cut a 45 degree angle of the front supports so i don't cut my legs up moving under it......
used a mill file to get all edges smooth
first pic is of the rear view
Rear view
front view
Front view
installed view
Install view
Post by: floodstage on August 09, 2004, 12:18:44 PM
2 questions:
1) What kind of monitors are those?
2) Why is one of your wall mounted absorption panels L-shaped?
Post by: j.hall on August 09, 2004, 01:05:13 PM
| floodstage wrote on Mon, 09 August 2004 11:18 |
1) What kind of monitors are those? |
Wright WFM-II
small company out of atlanta that went under a while back
when i worked at mercenary Fletcher used these things, after listening to music on them for 7 months i just couldn't live without them
he switched to adams, i bought out every thing he had....spare parts and all.
| Quote: |
2) Why is one of your wall mounted absorption panels L-shaped? |
B-rad and i agreed that due to room size, the diffusors would be best installed in a manner that would allow them to be moved back against the wall for any unforeseen reason.
so obviously, we hinged them.
the L-shaped panel is right next the window and i wanted to cover the maximum area i could with it.
so i followed the window down then brought the panel out underneath the window. so when it' against the wall it looks right. it just looks funny in it's angled position.
the panels need to be moved down about 4"
i might rebuild that one.
Post by: drumsound on August 10, 2004, 04:01:40 AM
I'm surprised you went with an install rack. I figured you'd be ready to be mobile at a moment?s notice.
Tell us about the speaker stands please.
I'm gonna have to take a trip down while I can still have the top down...
Post by: j.hall on August 10, 2004, 09:40:13 AM
speaker stands.
the base is microlam (material used for headers in new home construction)
polls are 1.5" galvanized steel pipe attached with 1.5" galvanized flanges. i had them cut and threaded at home depot.
the top plate is two pieces of 1"x12" pine glued and screwed together. i then used a planer to make a 45 degree angle on all edges just to give it a nice finished look.
half a cinder block for base weighting (should have spray painted them.)
then i set the base spikes using a drill press, screw in the threaded inserts, screw in the spikes......
i then cut 3" square pieces of masonite to keep the spikes from digging into my carpet
i also used those "shims" to level the stands as my floor is uneven. i got the spikes at:
http://www.oregondv.com/
Post by: theenvycorps on August 10, 2004, 09:15:30 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 11, 2004, 09:22:38 AM
just random gear i've collected over the past 7 years.
Post by: floodstage on August 11, 2004, 09:30:38 AM
| j.hall wrote on Tue, 10 August 2004 09:40 |
i'm tired of moving those racks around, they don't look good in a fixed install, and i don't even have a vehicle to move them...... <snip> |
New Mix Room .... New Pro Tools ..... New mac .... no car!
I think this must be the deinition for an indie rock engineer. heh heh!
Post by: NelsonL on August 11, 2004, 03:01:59 PM
Seriously, the room looks great and must sound even better (I'm taking your word for it.)
Are you completely operational at this point?
Post by: j.hall on August 11, 2004, 03:43:57 PM
i just sent you an email......literally, i just sent it, and came here, saw your post and laughed
you must be off tour now....
i have a car, just not one big enough to carry around two road cases and other things i used to cart all over the place.
had to always rent a van or something.
the room is about 5% from being totally installed
it sounds incredible.....
Post by: jthoen on August 11, 2004, 03:47:51 PM
thanks
joe
Post by: j.hall on August 11, 2004, 04:40:50 PM
you'll have to take my word for it, or fly down here with some CD's you know well
Post by: Bo on August 12, 2004, 03:27:03 PM
It's looks great, and I know it sounds even better.
This thread has been informative and interesting...
cheers!
Post by: craig boychuk on August 14, 2004, 12:46:23 PM
Maybe I'm being fooled by the photos...
Anyway, this whole thread / project of yours is really reassuring to those of us working in small rooms...It can be done!!!
Post by: j.hall on August 14, 2004, 10:37:24 PM
from he siad, it's a two-thirds to one-thirds ration
i'm 5 feet off the front wall centered between the two side walls
the space is about 15 feet deep.
if i move 12" back from the mix position the image goes to garbage.
from some very rough measurements......some where around 200Hz, is 2.5db down at the mix position.....
12" back, it's 7 db down
the rear of the room seems pretty accurate as well.
most places in between are not very desireable.
Post by: craig boychuk on August 15, 2004, 02:27:11 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 16, 2004, 09:45:49 AM
once i realized that i had never really heard these discs i started grabbing all sorts of stuff.
i NEVER listened to any of my work while setting up the room.
i got the speakers rough placed by just listening to program material
then i ran sweeps and listened to see if anything in the lows popped out.
i got the mix position set and did the final speaker placement based on that.
after that i grabbed my SPL meter (C weighted slow) and wathced the meter go as the sweep went from 20 to 20k.
i could hear the low mid dip 12" back
i first thought the low end was much bigger back there, but realized that it was the same, the low mids just got sucked out.
at the mix position i couldn't really hear it that well.
the meter was showing about 2.5 db of dip.
i have no idea what frequencies the dip is at. i just know by ear it's in the low mids...i'm guessing between 150 and 250.
from there the response was really smooth, as i had been hearing for a week or so.
Post by: j.hall on August 20, 2004, 09:31:13 AM
a picture of my humble racks.
Rack Bay 1
Rack Bay 2
Post by: drumsound on August 22, 2004, 10:20:49 PM
Post by: j.hall on August 23, 2004, 09:34:26 AM
Post by: tubejay on August 25, 2004, 08:16:58 PM
I saw your post over at the Lab about the GSSL, and popped over here. I used to be a member a while back, but never registered again when everything switched.
Anyway, I looked around, but couldn't find out what tape machine you've got there. Is that an old scully? It's got a very unique head/transport assembly.
Your place is looking good!
Post by: j.hall on August 26, 2004, 09:36:59 AM
Post by: craig boychuk on August 29, 2004, 10:27:45 PM
...imo...
Post by: j.hall on August 29, 2004, 10:42:35 PM
a friend has a space echo...his sounds cool, but it's different from the multi-echo.
we use both from time to time....different aux sends, for different things.
Post by: j.hall on November 01, 2004, 03:42:16 PM
people have been wanting to hear something i've mixed in the new room.
i'm doing some test mixes on my bands record right now.
all the tracks were cut in about 4 different studios....it's starting to be a real mess if you weren't along for the ride from the start (4 years ago)
anyway.
i typically mix records in the sequencial order of the album.
so, track 1 being a little intro piece that doeesn't have bass yet, i started with track 2.
i've test mixed this song about 8 times....so i'm a bit jaded on it at this point.
still needs some tweaks but it's pretty close.
(side note, this is a m4a file, i ripped it as a test to see if it sounded any better then mp3's, you need quicktime to play it, i think)
http://download.prosoundweb.com/~j.hall/Raygun3.m4a
go ahead and comment all you want.
you won't hurt my feelings in the least.
Post by: spankenstein on November 02, 2004, 09:39:49 AM
Post by: j.hall on November 02, 2004, 12:08:28 PM
http://download.prosoundweb.com/~j.hall/Raygun4.mp3
Post by: craig boychuk on November 04, 2004, 10:13:11 AM
Post by: j.hall on November 04, 2004, 10:24:22 AM
i'm having trouble with the mids....something isn't right in there.
i think it's in the bass. not sure i need to turn it up, maybe just get some 200 - 300 back in it. that alone will "bring it out"
i can hear full extension down to about 45 Hz in my new room......that is becoming dangerous on big rock songs like this.
some how, i managed to get that kick doing what it does, with out too much damage to the whole mix.
now if i could just afford some B&W 802's....i could hear down to 35 Hz.
hahahahahaha
Post by: craig boychuk on November 04, 2004, 08:32:01 PM
I'll bet some 200 would be tasty indeed.
Yeah, it's weird when you first get full (or close[r] to full) range monitoring...it made me a little unsure of myself, being able to hear all that low end...like it was too good to be true!
Post by: drumsound on November 10, 2004, 02:11:32 AM
I still love that song!
Post by: Beezoboy on November 11, 2004, 10:05:28 AM
I don't know if comments on you mix were what you wanted? But. . .
The dry screamy vocal in the beggining doesn't work for me. Maybe if it were lo-fi telephone sounding or something else like it is in the end. The snare could be a little more wet too. The delay on the "sung" vocal that occurs after the dry one needs the delay only on the last word because I can't understand what the phrase is from the delay. Or maybe do a slapback kinf od delay. Those thend to be less noticable except on the ends of phrases.
The cymbals, particularly when he plays the hats in chorus, are really pumpy and/or phasey. Checking the mix in mono really brings it out.
Lastly I think when the vocals are doubled in the end (where they say my raygun in unison) you might try putting some delay on them for impact.
Sorry its a cool song so I couldn't resist.
Beez
Post by: ajcamlet on January 03, 2005, 01:57:21 PM
I just ran thru this whole thread, and congrats on your new space. I've been doing the exact same thing for about the last three months, and i could absolutely relate to every step of your progress. I'm just starting to suss out some mixes now, as soon as i was able to, i started doing overdub sessions as i was still completing the rest of the wiring (and painting, and cleaning, and problem solving, etc..etc..)
Interestingly i'm also thinging it may be time for some new monitors I'm using Dyn Bm6's with P3000 and am starting to feel a little ambivalent about them.. but for now they will stay - Gotta get some $$ rolling in!!!
Best
ajc
Post by: j.hall on January 03, 2005, 03:12:14 PM
i'm glad i have a space good enough to reveal my monitors as a source of problems.....
i'm sure you aren't glad you need to look, and buy new monitors, but at least you now have a space that revealed more problem areas.
the questeds i'm auditioning are really nice. H108's are the model.
they make a powered version of that monitor but i've heard the passive version sounds better so that's what i'm trying.
probably look into a bryston amp to really complete my monitoring chain.
congrats again on the room....do you have any pics?
Post by: ajcamlet on January 03, 2005, 03:19:12 PM
| j.hall wrote on Mon, 03 January 2005 15:12 |
i'm sure you aren't glad you need to look, and buy new monitors, but at least you now have a space that revealed more problem areas. |
On the money, man.
I post some later tonite or tomorrow......
cheers,
ajc
Post by: ajcamlet on January 17, 2005, 11:14:30 PM
Post by: j.hall on January 18, 2005, 09:43:01 AM
Post by: ajcamlet on January 18, 2005, 10:14:46 AM
Post by: ajcamlet on January 18, 2005, 11:43:53 AM
Post by: ajcamlet on January 18, 2005, 11:45:34 AM
Post by: ajcamlet on January 18, 2005, 11:46:57 AM
Post by: ajcamlet on January 18, 2005, 11:48:24 AM