Reitzas wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 06:24 |
This is brilliant. etc etc |
Reitzas wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 05:24 |
While one could easily see the differences in our individual career paths, it is uncanny the similarities in the fundamental core of engineering, as a profession, that we do share. Sincerely, Dave Reitzas www.reitzas.com |
Eric Rudd wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 11:20 |
Hey Dave, It's good to see you around the forum. Over ten years later and it's fun to see the same folks popping up as we travel down the career stream. Keep up the great work. All the best, Eric |
Eric Rudd wrote on Thu, 15 December 2005 11:20 |
P.S. And oh, be careful driving on the PCH. You never know who you might "run" into. |
Ron Steele wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 01:10 |
The business Steve has, has nothing in common with the old studio model. Steve created a need for his skills within a niche market. |
pipelineaudio wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 18:29 |
Man what a great video! Highest respects accorded But I have a quibble. I would love to see Steve apply this type of logic to many of the bands I work with. They want EVERYTHING to sound 100% perfect in time and in tune, and cant play their part right once in a row. If they dont sound like they could, I dont get paid. They also expect many of their parts to be worked out or written by me. I am an engineer and not a producer, I am not a songwriter or any of these things, yet I do them or I dont get paid I think Steve's philosophy is perfect, in a perfect world, but to diss those of us who have to deal with an altogether different reality is kind of lame |
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todd rundgren ruined a great xtc album with dx7 and i was pissed off when i heard it the first time..those sounds don't fit.. they don't belong in the music |
Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 10:31 | ||
First, there is absolutely no DX7 on that album, so be careful, and no exactly what your talking about before you agree with a random statement made by Steve and make it truth. I am a big xtc fan, but sorry, that is one of the best produced records ever to be produced. And, may I also point out the obvious Beatles influence in xtc. What would have the Beatles sounded like without George Martian? Did he impose himself on the band, or did they "tell" him how to arrange and orchestrate their songs? And if you don't think that Todd, being the biggest beatles freak ever, didn't have some sort of pre-pro and discussion about how the album turned out, your mistaken. XTC is brilliant band on the level of the beatles who never needed Todd, but they felt the need to go to somebody for that record and choose him to produce it. They had "creative differences", as it turned out to really be more like a colaboration of sorts, kinda like the Beatles and George Martian. Again, what would have the Beatles sounded like with George Martian? What's interesting is they never set out to produce all on their own even after the tables were turned in a big way because they were "the man". What does it mean when you have the greatest act of all time, always seeking out a producer? And, It really doesn't matter if the producer decides to add a real orchestra or a "dx7", does it. |
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XTC is brilliant band on the level of the beatles who never needed Todd, but they felt the need to go to somebody for that record and choose him to produce it. |
Ron Steele wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 01:10 |
It was an interesting look, but i would like to clarify a few things, First, yes.... most music in the 80's was embarrassing. |
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As for the linn and the dx7, it served a purpose and it was quite ground breaking at the time. This new technology allowed wang chung to become wang chung. You didn't have to like it, but there was a sound that it helped to define and create. |
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I really don't believe for a second the linn or dx7 did any harm in the 80's, and the linn triggered like shit anyways. |
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For many years, studio's had set working patterns and parameters because of the nature of the business they were doing(...)If an AE ever seemed like he dictating that recoding process, it was because of how he was trained at that studio. |
pipelineaudio wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 18:29 |
Man what a great video! Highest respects accorded |
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But I have a quibble. I would love to see Steve apply this type of logic to many of the bands I work with. They want EVERYTHING to sound 100% perfect in time and in tune, and cant play their part right once in a row. |
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If they dont sound like they could, I dont get paid. |
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They also expect many of their parts to be worked out or written by me. I am an engineer and not a producer, I am not a songwriter or any of these things, yet I do them or I dont get paid |
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I think Steve's philosophy is perfect, in a perfect world, but to diss those of us who have to deal with an altogether different reality is kind of lame |
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You are describing the problem accurately. Engineers and studios should not have applied jingle-session logic and methods to self-contained bands. That it was common is no excuse. |
Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 16:27 | ||
electrical wrote:
How could this be the problem when it was the exception? |
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It is hardly " jingle-session logic and methods" related. These were the same "logic and methods" applied, for many years, to a vast amount of recordings made all over the country. Big bands, frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Elvis, Phil Spector, Beatles, Beach Boys and 60's pop bands etc...etc.. They all used the same "logic and methods" you are calling the "problem". If there were no producers or arrangers back in the day, we would have heard nothing from these artists. |
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You say the "dx7" and "linn" drun machine were imposed on artists by producers and engineers, so what is the difference between the producers and arrangers guiding the recordings of the above mentioned artist? Were their methods flawed and unfair to these artists? |
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Besides, I don't know of many earth shattering self-produced bands or artists that took the world by storm, |
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and there is probably a reason for that. |
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Who do you think sought out Bob Ezrin for the Wall? I'm sure it wasn't Ezrin calling Pink Floyd, and I'm sure Pink Floyd was not under the gun by the label to have Ezrin produce the record because they were concerned about sales. |
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Because a self-contained band was the exception, engineers didn't accommodate it. They did things the "standard" way, which was inappropriate for special circumstances. |
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Given the existing showbiz paradigm (and the fact that self-contained bands with all-original music were rare until the 1960s), they acted the way all their peers did, and I can't blame them. I think it is not as honorable as a more hands-off approach, but like a lot of things that made sense, the idea took a while to develop. |
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If you think Bob Ezrin is what made a record good, rather than the band's music and ideas, which he wrapped his production niceties around, then there's very little I can do to make you understand the music scene from a band-member's perspective. |
Ryan Moore wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 19:31 |
I was amazed to learn years later that there were a few DX7 freaks that got into making thier own patches |
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Starting with Brian Eno |
Ron Steele wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 04:02 |
Many seek out the producer and the AE because they know the benefits that can be gained. Steve, you make it sound like there is some sort of epidemic going on when in reality, it is probably due to simple personality conflicts between a band and a producer/AE. |
oshcas wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 06:38 |
This discussion seems to be only about some kind of adversarial relationship between 'band' and 'producer' |
Ron Steele wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 23:02 |
Can you share with us what popular bands you feel were compromised by this "inappropriate standard". |
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So what do you think of George Martian? Was he conducting himself in a honorable fashion? Did he not contribute to the Beatles, or did he simply muck up what we will never know? |
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I found out that, not only was a dumb ass with out a clue, but that there was plenty of room for ideas to form and grow because of an outside and organized perspective. |
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Steve, if your promoting your method that is fine, but to say a producer or AE is imposing himself on a band is kind of shortsighted, especially when you consider all the groups and artists that had multiple success's with the same producer or AE. |
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You offer a wire to tape, and others offer something more. |
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I could see alot of your points clearer, if all bands and acts felt the way you say they do, but it is just not true. Many seek out the producer and the AE because they know the benefits that can be gained.Steve, you make it sound like there is some sort of epidemic going on when in reality, it is probably due to simple personality conflicts between a band and a producer/AE. |
Fibes wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 13:42 |
The part where we have to jump off the clerk route is when Songwriters want to have a backing band and more instrumentation than just a guitar/piano. |
electrical wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 12:28 |
1) If he's so good at all this stuff, why doesn't he just make a record and be famous? 2) If a band is so dissatisfied with their music that they need all this stuff on it to be content, what the hell did they start with, and why did anyone think it was worth recording? "Boy, this material sure is clumsy and weak. Fantastic! Let's get into the studio right away so we can get rid of it and record something else!" |
lord wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 16:37 |
RS -- let's make a deal. You stop typing "George Martian" and stuff stops flying out of my nose. Cool? |
RKrizman wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 19:21 |
I could take a similarly exaggerated opposite stance and say that all that self produced indie crap is just self indulgent wanking with about a 5 minute shelf life. |
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You can go overboard in preserving the "sanctity of the band", because really, most bands suck to an embarrassing degree. |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 02:20 |
You could say that, and be spectacularly wrong. The long and productive careers of bands like Fugazi, the Ex, Slint, the jesus Lizard and countless others are evidence that bands who "indulgently" follow their own intentions can have much longer, more influential careers than bands who welcome outsider "collaboration." I am of the opinion that a band's records should be entirely self-indulgent. I can think of no place where self-indulgence is more needed. The records mean more to the bands than anyone else. It is their record, and they will have to carry it on their backs forever. Tomorrow, the producer or engineer will move on to another gig, and if he fucks this one, he doesn't ever have to think about it again. I can no more encourage this kind of meddling than I can encouage a stranger to show you how to fuck your wife or raise your kids. |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 01:20 |
I believe almost all great art is made with some measure of disinterest in its audience. |
Ryan Moore wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 20:46 |
I just watched part of a DVD tonight on the legendary & influential Germany band CAN, of which I am a big admirer - a great example of a self indulgent , entirely self-produced band that made music which was totally unique & proved to be a huge influence , Some of their early 70's albums were literally life changing for me when I heard them, |
Curve Dominant wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 02:28 | ||
I could agree with that. I would personally take that farther, and say that ALL great art is made with COMPLETE disinterest in ANY audience. |
RKrizman wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 07:34[/quote |
I mean, why even bother going to a professional studio. The crude utterance on your home Digital Performance rig should have just as much validity, and will suffer even less from any possible interference from some outside recording engineer who is not in the band. -R |
RKrizman wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 07:34 |
I also loved CAN. But for every CAN there was a hundred lame assed art rock bands that just sucked. Just because a band can afford Albini's low rate (or anybody's low rate, for that matter) to make a record doesn't mean they're any good. I believe there is such a thing as good art and bad art, and I also believe that in the arts pretty much 95 percent of everything sucks. |
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The real argument that is being put forward is that aspiring artists are immune to mentoring or improvement. |
kraster wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 09:58 |
Or the converse, that aspiring artists should be allowed develop their own unique artistic vision without having somebody elses artistic process imposed upon them. |
RKrizman wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 02:34 |
The real argument that is being put forward is that aspiring artists are immune to mentoring or improvement. |
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Sorry grasshopper, but when you can snatch the pebble from my hand... |
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I mean, why even bother going to a professional studio. |
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The crude utterance on your home Digital Performance rig should have just as much validity, and will suffer even less from any possible interference from some outside recording engineer who is not in the band. |
pipelineaudio wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 03:52 |
You could even say setting bias levels on your tape recorder would be Forcing decisions on the band. |
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How far should we go with this hands offishness? |
Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 12:40 |
that the difference of opinions here arise from, the "college co-op basement" music, which is kind of an activist and rebellious mentality, |
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and the "mainstream" music mentality. |
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There is certainly no valid reason to diss or discourage the approach and methods taken to create either genre, and one has absolutely nothing in common with the other to begin with. |
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It's ok to have a different point of view or opinion, but how is telling others that you think their views, opinions and methods are invalid and insulting a proper reaction? |
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"college co-op basement" music |
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most music in the 80's was embarrassing |
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I don't know of many earth shattering self-produced bands or artists that took the world by storm |
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It's ok to have a different point of view or opinion |
Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 17:40 |
It's ok to have a different point of view or opinion, but how is telling others that you think their views, opinions and methods are invalid and insulting a proper reaction? |
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It has changed more lives than Wang Chung and their ilk, that's for goddamn sure. Punk rock and the independent music scene have together been more important than any other cultural influences since the birth of electric music. |
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There is definitely such a mentality, and I definitely do not understand it. |
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Well, here in the independent world, we think the bands (who are laying their lives' work on the line here) should be given special deference and consideration because they are the engine for the whole process. They pay for everything, and without them, I would have nothing to record and the stores would have nothing to sell. |
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How is that inapplicable to your "mainstream?" Why would that not work there? Do they use a different kind of money in that world? Do people not have enough smarts to decide their own fates? Are you suggesting that all those people are artless, malleable and stupid? |
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It's a lot like characterizing an enormous body of work as or dismissing an era you completely misunderstood by saying basically admitting you aren't up to speed on this argument by saying |
Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 15:33 |
These kids don't need 80's punk music to change their lives because they have their own and they don't discriminate between any kind of music. |
Ron Steele |
Really........? How so and for who? |
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i guess i'm saying as one young dude in a band (in your backyard no less) that some kids and critics like, this sort of stuff is very relevant. it's also very relevant to the people's floors i've slept on worldwide. what is "thier own" is the great catalog of independent/underground music from the 70s to today. |
kraster wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 03:58 |
Or the converse, that aspiring artists should be allowed develop their own unique artistic vision without having somebody elses artistic process imposed upon them. |
Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 16:33 | ||
Really........? How so and for who? |
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So why are you so against something you don't understand? |
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A lot of people throw themselves on the pavement everyday and deserve credit and consideration for their work and efforts for the same reasons. You make it sound like you and the bands you record are the only ones in the recording industry.............that work hard. |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 08:11 |
How about we start with letting the band have their way? How about we start with not telling them we think they ought to play their music differently, or present it differently, or change it in ways large and small to suit the engineer. That's a good start. |
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I have my speculations regarding inflated self-image, greed, hunger for power, status and control, but they are just speculations. |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 08:02 | ||
Sensei, I take it you can tell when something is good and bad, always? Truly you are very wise. I am not so wise. I am man enough to admit that I may not understand why a band does what they do, or even if they have achieved it when they have. If I expect to make such judgements in the heat of battle, I will get them wrong as often as right, from the perspective of the band. I think it is extraodinarily presumptuous to think that anyone outside the band can understand their motives and their art better than they can themselves. It is close to preposterous to me. |
Ron Steele wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 18:20 |
If your looking to find a logic behind what many of us do here and why, how about speculating that many here, just like you, are trying to make a living while doing something they love and take pride in. |
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Why do so many people in our business take it on themselves to direct processes they have no ownership of, and ultimately will not have to take responsibility for? Why do they not see this as meddling? Where do they get the balls? That's what baffles me. |
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Why do so many people in our business take it on themselves to direct processes they have no ownership of, and ultimately will not have to take responsibility for? |
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Why do they not see this as meddling? Where do they get the balls? That's what baffles me |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 18:27 |
The part I don't understand is the meddling. Why do so many people in our business take it on themselves to direct processes they have no ownership of, and ultimately will not have to take responsibility for? Why do they not see this as meddling? Where do they get the balls? That's what baffles me. |
Curve Dominant wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 01:28 |
I would personally take that farther, and say that ALL great art is made with COMPLETE disinterest in ANY audience. |
c.gymer wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 20:43 |
Imposing YOUR ideas is totally unacceptable. |
c.gymer wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 01:43 |
How can a person (who is not in the band) telling them what they should sound like be at all ethical? Because he was hired to? By its very nature, imposing your view on the band is wrong. Unless you are hired to? Talking with the band about their music, being a sounding off board, that is fine because your are voicing your opinion that the band maybe very happy to hear and consider. Imposing YOUR ideas is totally unacceptable. Unless you were hired to? If i were to force my religious beliefs or my political beliefs on you, how would you feel? Did I hire you to? Violated? Raped? Because that is what it feels like when someone makes artistict 'adjustments' to YOUR MUSIC. |
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I do genuinely hate the fact that this is my virgin post here, but I cannot for the life of me understand what Ron Steele doesn't get about Steve's point. How can a person (who is not in the band) telling them what they should sound like be at all ethical? |
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Talking with the band about their music, being a sounding off board, that is fine because your are voicing your opinion that the band maybe very happy to hear and consider. |
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Imposing YOUR ideas is totally unacceptable. |
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f i were to force my religious beliefs or my political beliefs on you, how would you feel? Violated? Raped? Because that is what it feels like when someone makes artistict 'adjustments' to YOUR MUSIC. |
c.gymer wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 22:30 |
... Because the label were paying we had no say in the matter, and after we had the mixes finished by another party, the label then had more pop-y mixes done without even telling us. |
canada wrote on Wed, 21 December 2005 21:31 |
Did Mutt Lange really make AC/DC sound better though from a producer's standpoint? I'm a big fan of AC/DC, and don't you think AC/DC would have been like "Damn make that kick more ballsy and turn up the guitars!" even if Mutt hadn't been there? I'm just throwing this out there, I know nothing of the man. |
JamSync wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 11:22 | ||
Maybe...but he certainly helped Def Leppard... |
Jay Scherer wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 12:08 |
] Helped them become rich I guess, but to me the pre-Pyromania albums are much better. But I don't think Mutt did any harm to AC/DC, I think the producers who came after did that. |
JamSync wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 23:40 | ||
You think he "did harm" to Def Leppard by turning out hits? I guess you think the early album for Shania produced by a good ol boy whose name I forget is somehow more pure? Gak. |
dokushoka wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 16:11 |
I find myself getting more involved with the artist's music because their goal may be "to make my songs more appealing to younger people" or "to make me sound more unique." |
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These goals require consultation from me. At which point I become somewhat like the coach, or the personal trainer. It is my job to help them achieve that goal and be as objective as possible, all from the sidelines. |
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I work with a lot of artist that write great parts, can arrange and definitely have the performance part of things down. But, more than anything, they need guidance in how to make those elements translate via a recording. |
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Oftentimes, an artist will say "can I get LOADS of reverb on this part." A lot of times, what they really want it a noticeable delay or a change in the sense of space, but they don't know how to communicate that. |
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Furthermore, arrangements go a long way towards a great sounding mix/record. A lot of bands don't really listen that hard to what the other guys in the band or doing, or, just don't have enough experience to know what other options there are. |
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Arranging for a mix is a skill that can really only be understood once one is involved heavily with the mixing process. If I can spot trouble spots at the tracking stage, and let them fly because that is "just how the band sounds" knowing its going to harm the mix, am I really earning my money? |
chris haines wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 19:11 |
Hi Steve, I’m a fan of a lot of your work. I was wondering if you would be willing to share your perspective on recording bands like Failure… I’m a huge fan of this band and followed them around in L.A. before they were signed to Slash, loved their demos, and was depressed for a couple weeks when I finally got my hands on Comfort…I had such high expectations and was disappointed with the results…I didn’t feel that it reflected the quality of the band live, nor did the recordings live up to vibe on the original demos that they did themselves. A lot of fans felt the same way, and the band expresses some disappointment with this record on their DVD. |
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They went on to self-produce & record their next two releases and in doing so created much more cohesive pieces of art that better represented the band and their sound… |
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In your opinion, does any involvement in helping a band record have potential for diminishing their art? |
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And, in hindsight, do you think that some of the band’s records that you have worked on would have benefited artistically if you had taken on a more substantial role in helping them make artistic decisions? |
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And you really think you know how to do that? Honestly, you think you know how to make something appeal to someone else? Astounding. |
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What does this magical word "translate" mean? I see it written in a lot of audio commentary, but I think it is a meaningless word. |
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So you ask them, "are you looking specifically for reverb, or a sense of space?" Don't expect people to know everytihng, but at least give them the option of being right about their own music. Maybe the dude really wants reverb, maybe not. The job is to find out what he wants and let him hear it. |
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When the music walks in the door of your studio, it is already arranged. What you're talking about is changing its existing arrangement to suit you. I think that's rude, and I won't do it. |
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I don't know what you mean by "arranging for a mix." I've never done that, as far as I know, and I've been making records a long time. What is it? |
Curve Dominant wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 02:28 | ||
I could agree with that. I would personally take that farther, and say that ALL great art is made with COMPLETE disinterest in ANY audience. |
bluespark wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 06:28 |
Even the most cursory glance into the history of composers and artists and their patron relationships shows this statement to be embarassingly ludicrous. |
bluespark wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 03:28 |
Even the most cursory glance into the history of composers and artists and their patron relationships shows this statement to be embarassingly ludicrous. |
electrical wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 12:44 | ||
Only if you believe that the category of sponsored art (work made for hire) has been responsible for the best art. Currently, that would be a ludicrous assertion. |
Colin Frangos wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 14:19 | ||
Erm... I don't think history backs you up on this. Even if we ignore the fact that patronage hasn't been a significant factor in art in the last 150 years, and stick by the period when it was standard practice (let's say 1200 through 1600), I don't think you'd find artists OR patrons that were particularly happy with the outcomes. Da Vinci was admired as a weapons designer, not as a painter, mostly because he didn't finish things when the patrons expressed an opinion in how his work should continue. Michelangelo said, "I cannot live under pressures from patrons, let alone paint." I could go on. |
bluespark wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 22:42 |
1. You are far off in your assumption about the appropriate time period. |
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Let us say into at least the mid 19th century there are many strong examples -- too numerous to go into here. |
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Regardless, the facts stand. The Sistine Chapel began as a very specific project commissioned under Julius II. And continued on and on beyond the initial concept, true, but nonetheless. Also, the sculpture David was a commission in fact taken on after a previous sculptor in Florence failed to deliver. |
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The ludicrous statement was that ALL great art is (and has been) created with no audience in mind and beholden to no one but the artist. It is true, and thank god, that the current technological and economic stature of the West (for one), is such that this need not be the case. I agree wholeheartedly with Steve's sentiment about modern music, and its artistic value. However when someone looking to 'take it further' makes a ridiculous blanket statement about Art with a capital 'A' - all possible art that has been and can be - it must be called out. |
Hellapeno wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 15:36 |
The .mov file won't play with Windows Media Player or Real Player on my PC (both current versions). Suggestions for an application that will play this on a PC? |
electrical wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 07:02 |
An engineer's job is to manage the technical side of the recording, with as little interference as possible. Anyone who thinks this is trivial (or easy, for that matter), has not been trying very hard, or has not been paying attention. In a professional environment, the acoustics and recording can be managed so as to be flattering to the band and free from the compromises inherent in semi-professional environments. That's why professional studios are needed. |
electrical wrote on Mon, 19 December 2005 12:28 |
... It isn't hard to find examples ot terriffic (or at least competent) bands who made horrible records in the 1980s, scarred by the production-of-the-day brought to bear on them: ZZ Top ... |