YZ wrote on Tue, 18 January 2011 14:56 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
All of the above for free: meds, MRI, appointments, ultrasound, acupuncture, phys therapy, yoga, meditation etc and I even grabbed some free condoms on the way out of the state clinic here in S Post by: Gio on January 18, 2011, 07:40:48 PM Post by: YZ on January 18, 2011, 08:06:56 PM
Oh yes. When I was someone else's employee, part of my salary was discounted towards the state medical and welfare systems, and my employers also had to pay their part on top of that. Now I am self-employed and I do, by my own choice, pay a monthly contribution towards our social security system (which includes health care). Any deficits at the health care side are covered in the federal, state and municipal budgets; health care is considered here as one of the basic services that the government has to provide. Now, before anyone thinks that we achieved perfection... no, the system is far from perfect and in several locations of the country it is actually a very poor service. But here where I live it works, so I use it. PS: in several locations in my city, the state provides free and open yoga, meditation, liam-gong classes/sessions (and other similar alternative medicine stuff) because those have been proved to reduce stress and prevent other ailments that cost much more to treat later on. Post by: MagnetoSound on January 19, 2011, 03:49:04 AM
It is possible to be both progressive and economical. Post by: Tidewater on January 19, 2011, 11:13:29 AM Post by: YZ on January 19, 2011, 05:53:07 PM Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 19, 2011, 08:17:38 PM Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 12:53:36 AM If you are sick, you are treated. I still fail to see the big problem, but I guess it's because I don't own a congressman. This pre-existing condition thing has me thinking I should let my car insurance lapse, and then get new insurance that doesn't discriminate against pre-existing conditions.. but that isn't really insurance, that is just a sugar daddy.. "Thanks for calling GEICO! How can I help you today?" "I wrecked my new Volt!" "I am so sorry! Are you ok?" "Yeah, I am fine, but it's totaled!" "Can I get your policy number sir? We will get an agent right on that for you." "I don't have a policy with you, yet." You understand that, I am sure. Do you want doctors, and medicine to feel the same pain as the record industry? Imagine illegal downloading of expensive services. What to do when the medical business goes suburban. Cancer treatment clinics in garages? Not literally, but again, an analogous pointer, no? Imagine when the government is printing money to pay for everyone to have a boob job. Boob jobs will cost $95,000.00, everyone will have huge lopsided tits, and dollars will be worth about a penny. It's amazingly cruel, but we weren't promised all these freebies in life. They are resources that are not at all like low fruit to be plucked by the basket. 20% of the population would have to be slaves working on a med farm. Life is a bitch, and then we die. I haven't heard that since just before everyone lost their minds in this insane downward spiral we demanded from unqualified people. Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 01:01:58 AM I had a good run. Post by: YZ on January 20, 2011, 01:23:06 AM In your example, you as a client _knew_ that your car was wrecked. In the case of someone's health, unless he/she had already been to a doctor and had exams done, how can he know that he has, say, stage II liver cancer? And I respectfully disagree on pretty much everything else you wrote... One thing is plastic surgery to reconstruct the face of a burn victim, a 'breast augmentation' is something else. And I was talking about state clinics, not private enterprises charging whatever they want for whatever procedures they wanted to perform, needed or not, actually performed or not. A doctor from the state judging which exams, procedures, meds and stuff the patient needs; if the needed procedure is rare and not available at the public health network, then a suitable private entity is chosen to perform it, under the state's supervision. And as happened to me if I, the patient, am not happy with the doc's decision I can go back to the queue and try another doctor. Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 20, 2011, 02:25:25 AM why dont we charge $30 for one apple, just because "lifes a bitch man"!!! what tiny percentage of the huge amounts of cash being spent on unneccisary foreign wars would actually just get people basic care. I dont see people angry about that money being spent!! But hey, as long as .007 percent of the population gets an extra summer house- its totally worth it!!! Lets deny people with bad infections basic shit because we know when that thing grows big enough, we can really charge them a bunch of cash because they will have to or die. Hard working people who contribute so much to our world/country and dont get paid a lot for it should be blackmailed out of their life savings ,which they accumulated through HOURLY wages, just to get a basic operation!! If you are an artist at all in life, this would be your masterpiece!???!! Have fun with that man!!! I'm gonna go deny a starving person food and demand an extra ordinary amount of cash for it, tell them to come up with that ransom or "else"!! WTF? Some one needs 15 extra rooms in their house for 2 people, while some one sharing a 1 room apartment with 5 people cant have basic anti-biotics? whats next?? poor people cant use the sidewalk either? some things are meant for all that only nature owns, at some point the monoply game of capitalism needs its small kinks worked out!!! It really would not even make that much of a difference in the giant system!!! cheers Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 20, 2011, 02:37:35 AM cheers Post by: KB_S1 on January 20, 2011, 06:30:49 AM If you have the funds, private care is available too. I always look at it from emergency scenario. The question of funds and insurance should be the very last concern when someone is injured in an accident. Everyone in the country will potentially require emergency health care. To spread the costs throughout society is no bad thing. Private pharmaceutical development is big money business. Some of the principles and practices are not very caring. Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 20, 2011, 07:52:43 AM Left to its own devices it optimizes for the profit of the vendors, that's it's natural state, and in addition without occasional shakeups you get false optimums, so it's not even perfect in that respect. However the optimum for healthcare from a social and national economic perspective is the least amount of illness for the lowest expenditure. Post by: bblackwood on January 20, 2011, 08:02:11 AM Post by: ssltech on January 20, 2011, 08:12:25 AM
...yeah... -But it got a bit weird at the end there! Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 20, 2011, 10:44:35 AM cheers
Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 02:55:14 PM
You should have seen the middle. Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 03:00:26 PM
California is paying for sex changes here.. just sayin'... In my example, there was a pre-existing condition. That is all that is important. I don't want people to be denied care. They are not as it is now.. the conversation about what is really wrong has been subverted from the real issues, in my opinion. Post by: YZ on January 20, 2011, 05:32:01 PM
Well, if the people of California, represented by their elected officials, believe that the state should pay for sex change surgeries but not offer basic universal health care... that's their option. What can I do? I don't vote there.
Hold your horses there... "that is all that's important"? Respectfully no. My point was that car insurance is different from health insurance and my OP was NOT about health _insurance_ but about State Health Care; the only pre-existing condition here is "are you ill? then we'll take care of you; if you're not ill, we won't". Who defines if I am ill and what illness I have? The state doctor, to avoid private interests to interfere with proper care and administration.
Well, my OP was about my visit to the state clinic here in my underdeveloped third world country where people go to work by hopping from vine to vine, where monkeys and snakes roam the streets and whose main export is bananas (real 'explanation' of what Brazil is given by a 'developed' guy in another internet forum a couple of months ago). TBH, a lot of fellow middle-class paulistas (that's Portuguese for 'citizen of S Post by: Bubba#$%Kron on January 20, 2011, 05:34:53 PM That would be on every news channel if that was true!! come on?!?!?! Post by: DarinK on January 20, 2011, 05:59:57 PM
You're kidding here, right? Post by: Tidewater on January 20, 2011, 07:24:20 PM Be safe. Post by: Jay Kadis on January 20, 2011, 09:00:53 PM
The main advantage of civilization is that we don't each have to do everything ourselves. I make use of it. Post by: YZ on January 20, 2011, 10:32:55 PM Wanna drive your car from NY to LA? Pave your own road, dammit, who says the government HAS to provide you with tarmac? Wanna drive on MY dime, you lazy-a$$? No way. And why should _I_ pay school for that irresponsible bum who had 6 kids? I did my family planning and have ONE kid, I shouldn't pay for more than that. I want my freedom! So let's end now the political/ideological stuff, this thread was started by me to show how the public health system works here in my city... Now, I'd like to hear from our fellow audio engineers in other countries how they go about getting a doctor's appointment in their state health systems. I'd prefer first-hand reports: until I actually used the local public health care, I had the worst possible image of it. I believe that if the forum members from all countries can see the various different approaches to public health care around the world as told by people they know from this forum it will be a great resource and provide good food for thought. So, how about France, Germany, the UK, Canada, etc? Please let us know! Post by: resolectric on January 21, 2011, 07:46:02 AM Now were bankrupt so it's gone. There are traces of free but it now includes a tax (wich takes the free out of it) and some not-very-healthy care if you go to Public hospitals or clinics. And be ready to wait for more than a year for surgery. It's way too expensive to maintain such a benefit if you don't have oil being drilled somewhere. So, yes, it was nice while it lasted. Post by: Jon Hodgson on January 21, 2011, 08:14:28 AM
Tell that to the Cubans. The reality is that in any country, the population on average pay X% for their healthcare, whether that is through private care (payed directly), state care (payed through taxes) or some combination of both. The reality is also that systems which are founded on a socialist perspective (though details of implementation change, and may include components or lessons from the private sector), are, shocking as it may seem to those who worship capitalism, capable of providing considerably better value for money, so if you don't have oil being drilled that's the system you want. The recent healthcare bill in the USA was I suspect a terribly wasted opportunity. Lots of people fought having one at all, probably even before it was announced (which may have led to it already being a messed up compromise).. wrong argument. The arguments should have been about WHAT system of public healthcare to bring in, not about whether you should keep the existing expensive, inefficient and also uncivilized system. Other countries pay less than Americans, they're as healthy (if not healthier), and noone goes bankrupt because they contract an illness... what's not to like? Post by: mgod on January 23, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
Mmmm.... Kool-Aid. So good with added sugar! Post by: zakco on January 24, 2011, 02:41:43 AM
In Canada it basically works. The quality of care is not up to what is would be in a high priced, American "specialty" hospital, but from what I understand from talking to my family (they're ALL Americans) and friends is that it is considerably better than what the majority of americans are seeing. And most importantly, its thorough and affordable. My father is currently recovering from 18 months of chemo and radiation after having a malignant tumor removed from his brain. He has received fantastic and timely care. No excessive waiting and NO CHARGE. None. If you lined up 1000 canucks, you would be hard pressed to find one that wouldn't be happy/proud to have done their part to help him. I don't think that Americans are fundamentally uncaring, but I do believe that there is a unique sickness in its society that heralds the "every man for himself" mentality as something to be proud of. Watching the corporate media manipulate the least educated (and arguably the least fortunate) of its society to mobilize to fight social medicine in the form of pseudo patriotism is hard to take. What the teabaggers (sorry tidewater) don't seem to realize is that Rupert Murdoch (and the corporate criminals he operates on behalf of) are the very ones that benefit from your misguided anger. Meanwhile the middle class is systematically eroded. Making health care a basic human right is NOT THE SAME AS COMMUNISM! You CAN have a free market economy AND a social safety net. The two need be mutually exclusive. If you've been taught otherwise, then you've been LIED TO. Repeatedly. The fact that we're even having this conversation blows my mind... Z Post by: Tidewater on January 24, 2011, 03:55:04 AM
Really? The truth probably is between us. You like me, you really like me. Post by: YZ on January 24, 2011, 07:34:14 AM
Well Miles, I'm waiting for you to point to reliable sources of information that corroborate your statement that "the development of most modern treatment is funded by America". In my understanding, "funded by America" means "paid for by the government of the USA", please enlighten me if that is not correct. Post by: mgod on January 24, 2011, 12:00:39 PM Or at least "truth-like". As Colbert points out, for certain microcosms of mentality, it feels good to believe. And there are a number of for-profit concerns that make a lot of money by feeding beliefs like that. The US, after all, is a very special place. Far more special than anywhere else - so it must be true, because it feels so good, like a gun in the hand. Post by: mgod on January 24, 2011, 12:03:43 PM
Yeah, but you're a Canadian, man - what do you know? Here in The Greatest Nation That Ever Was or Ever Will Be, we all know that any Canadian who denies hating his health care system or envying us ours is just lying for some ignorant patriotic purpose. Post by: Berolzheimer on January 24, 2011, 12:49:24 PM
Yeah, & that 8 year ban on stem cell research really helped things along, didn't it? Post by: DarinK on January 25, 2011, 05:04:19 PM Post by: mgod on January 25, 2011, 05:12:51 PM |