Post by: minister on August 18, 2006, 06:56:21 PM
i work in a carefully calibrated and accurate room. and i am mastering 3 songs in 7.1 surround. think of it as almost like a 5.1 music master job...ya just got 2 more speaks.
(if you must know the details, it is a demo disk for a 7.1 consumer amplifier soon to hit the market. i will take the 7.1 mix and matrix a DOLBY EX mix that will be a 5.1 matrixed DVD disc that will be decoded by the amp to play in 7.1)
so, DeMystify This:
i know how to listen at certain monitor levels. But, my question -- just to confirm my thinking -- is about ultimate printing levels. for a stereo mix, y'all are bringing it to just under 0dBFS. So, do i maintain the balance of the music but bring the levels up to where the top channels are just under 0dBFS?
or how do y'all approach this?
thanks for reading!
Post by: Tim Halligan on August 18, 2006, 10:36:51 PM
I can't offer any help for audio-only releases.
Cheers,
Tim
Post by: minister on August 19, 2006, 11:25:02 AM
thanks for the response.
yeah -6 is a good target for the 5.1 on a DVD movies, not just on the LtRt. technically, you can go higher... there is no rule there, but that is a good guide especially when mixed in good room.
yet, this is music only.
has anyone mastered a 5.1 title? ... i guess i'll order one and take a look at that.
Post by: twelfthandvine on August 20, 2006, 09:57:15 PM
I begin by saying that I?ve never worked on anything in 7.1 and I can?t answer your question directly.
However, I have had experience doing a ?demo? along the lines you?re talking about. My constructive observation from this endearing experience is that there?s a good chance that the salesperson or execs managing the presentation will also want to play ?non 7.1 mixed stuff? ? to kind of make ?comparisons? or just to fill in time because of the lack of available 7.1 formatted music on hand.
So, if you can do so, get hold of a 5.1 thing and play this ? along with stereo material ? through the demo amp to get a feel of what its processors actually do to the relative levels.
You might want to think about whether you want them to have to ?turn up? your demo to bring it into line with the levels of the non 7.1 things.
With your experience, you may already thought of these things and, of course, I?m only talking about marketing here ? definitely not audio quality. Nevertheless, FWIW, I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Paul Blakey
12th & Vine Post
Post by: minister on August 20, 2006, 10:23:48 PM
your comments are spot on. thanks, and , yes, they help. they were anticipated by me, the producer -- who has some experience in putting out CD's -- and the regular ME who the producer normally uses but does not do surround and therefore suggested me to be the ME. i have mastered several stereo CD's. there are 6 stereo tunes and three 7.1 tunes. i am to provide one disc.
so, yes, the sales people want to be able to say, 'here are some good, but very vanilla mixes in pedestrian stereo. and now the wanker 7100 will demonstrate true envelopment™ as you are besieged on all sides by sonic euphoria!'
..ok, well, it isn't that cheesy, but that is the idea. and yes, if i am providing one disk i can control how loud each tune is...so, what's the big deal? i'll just use my unpatented T-system and listen at the volumes i normally listen at (for music) and make it sound as good as i can. ... i just was seeking advice from anyone who had done a 5.1 music title. and i wanted it to be competitive (i know how ME's love that word) with other 5.1 discs as the sales twerps will also be demonstrating the unit's ability to play those as well. as well as movies. and there i have experience with surround (at a calibrated level).
biggest problem is..."hey we need this by the end of next week and, no, we can't ship you a unit to test the disc with." me, "uh...yer serious?...i would advise you that we test this." them, "you don't test CD players do you?" me ... sigh ... ok, whatever you want...but you'll save yourself a headache if you....
cheers!
tom
Post by: twelfthandvine on August 21, 2006, 12:29:09 AM
| minister wrote on Mon, 21 August 2006 12:23 |
biggest problem is..."hey we need this by the end of next week and, no, we can't ship you a unit to test the disc with." me, "uh...yer serious?...i would advise you that we test this." them, "you don't test CD players do you?" me ... sigh ... ok, whatever you want...but you'll save yourself a headache if you.... |
Hey Tom ...
Hence my reference to it having been an 'endearing experience'.
Best of luck with the project.
Happy mastering
Paul Blakey
12th & Vine Post
PS Apologies for the formatting on my last text
Post by: Mark Wilder on August 21, 2006, 02:15:38 PM
Post by: minister on August 21, 2006, 02:22:17 PM
Post by: minister on August 21, 2006, 02:23:24 PM
..did you ever hear me say i love yer 'kind of blue' master?...
for film mixing, i always listen encode/decode -- don't want any steering issues. i will take the 7.1 discreet and encode it Dolby EX using a DMU. this will then unfold back into 7.1 = Dolby Pro LogicIIx... problem is as i stated above -- they tell me they can't ship me a unit. not ready, no time...la, la, la. i told them that i am then not responsible for decoding problems.
sorry, i am having a problem decoding this
| Quote: |
I hand authoring 0dbfs. |
do you mean to say go ahead and bring the highest signals close to 0dBFS?
thanks.
Post by: Mark Wilder on August 21, 2006, 06:43:29 PM
Thank you for the kind words on KoB. It's my all time favorite record and I feel quite lucky to have worked on it (like 5 times).
Yes, I deliver the highest peaks at O dbfs, but I almost never push the level with excessive processing. The encoder just collapses with continuous program like that. I do my dynamics work to achieve a "complete" sound, and that's all. There have been a couple that have gone the other way, and they have suffered because of it.
In a "blind" situation, I would just not crush it. But I would fill the bits.
Post by: minister on August 21, 2006, 07:07:55 PM
| Mark Wilder wrote on Mon, 21 August 2006 17:43 |
In a "blind" situation, I would just not crush it. But I would fill the bits. |
fill the bits? thought that was what dither was for, to linearize the process all the way down...............
Post by: Mark Wilder on August 22, 2006, 10:54:50 AM
My direction is more towards optimizing the medium. I must admit I'm less concerned now about dithering than I was in the past. In any given situation, my first priority is optimizing any given device (or medium, in this case) that I'm passing signal through (or into). This is why I mention listening to the encode/decode, which in this scenario, your hands are tied.
A more predictable tact leads to a more predictable outcome. Not knowing how your processors will react, a solid signal (instead of a overmodulated/undermodulated) will lead to a predictable outcome.
I personally don't like letting signal sit "in" the threshold of any device. I either want it working or not. And this is why I wouldn't advise printing at a lower level. But that's more of a personal thing.
I should also say that because I'm less concerned about dither, it doesn't mean that I'm not concerned at all about it.
Best of luck with your project.
Post by: minister on August 22, 2006, 07:08:13 PM
and, yes, Paul, this is turning into an 'endearing experience'. i just got the mixes. the balance engineer just pulled up a 7.1 template in Pro Tools and used it to mixed, not knowing what an SDDS layout was! now i have to explain to the producer that this is a theatrical format only and there is no consumer equivalent.... he will have to remix, or i become a re-balance engineer. ...good thing the BE teaches surround mixing...
Post by: jimlongo on August 23, 2006, 05:09:07 PM
Just following you around the internet . . .
How are you mixing 7.1 in ProTools? I was looking at the format the other day and there doesn't appear to be a EX or ProLogicIIx channel format . . . only SDDS. That seems odd doesn't it? I've seen implications that most 7.1 mixes are really 6.1 with 6split to the two rear speakers.
As far as levels I can tell you that most of the mulitchannel music mixes I have here are printed as close up to the last decibelas they can get. Some of them even have compression applied in the metadata of the Dolby Digital track, all are set to dialnorm setting of -31
Post by: minister on August 23, 2006, 07:47:12 PM
Quit following me!
Hey, best of both worlds : DUC for the Post and Surround knowledge and here for the Music Mastering knowledge. That way, i appear smarter and more capable than i am!
As you know, SDDS is the Sony Theatrical Layout for which there is no consumer equivalent. It's 5-2 and when you pull up a 7.1 Bus or Input or Output in the I/O window, PT gives you an SDDS layout. Not Sure why they don't give you the option, but I assume that Digi was thinking about Theatrical formats and not consumer ones.......
I am altering it for what is a Dolby Pro LogicIIx discrete layout = 3-2-2, or LCR, Ls Rs, Lb Rb (where 'b' stands for back)...and you probably knew that. Instead of re-patching my room, my normal 7-8 outs, are now the Lb & Rb. since i am only (merely!) mastering, there is no panning, or joysticking that i need to do. i will print it to a 7.1 track, export and make sure that it is all labeled properly. A bit of a work around, but really not too bad. i have to do some stem-specific processing anyway, like De-Ess the C channel and EQ the L&R separately from the Surrounds.
Then i ship that to Dolby who will encode it Dolby EX for me -- here's the Dolby link http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/prologic_IIx.html
reason i am shipping it to Dolby is because it needs to be a hardware encode with either the SEU 4 EX or a DMU. I don't have one, and my usual Dub Stages are too busy at the moment. Plus, Dolby will guarantee it!
Comes back here and i put it in DiscWelder for a DVD-A along with the stereo files.
Thanks for the advice about levels. and yes, i figgered on -31 as i don't want the decoder to touch it.
Post by: Mark Wilder on August 23, 2006, 10:56:51 PM
The good old days...
Post by: Tim Halligan on August 25, 2006, 06:01:14 AM
| Mark Wilder wrote on Thu, 24 August 2006 10:56 |
I once did a SDDS mix. I understood it to be 5 front, 2 rear, and lfe |
I believe that this is the correct SDDS layout, and the assignments on the mixer would run L-R, C-Sub, IL-IR, SL-SR...where I = Inner, and S (obviously) = Surround.
Even if my pairs order is incorrect (...very possible
), Mark nailed it with his description.Cheers,
Tim