Greg Reierson wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 10:24 |
Have you done null tests? There is NO jitter ITB. |
A Deian wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:07 |
That's what the mastering engineer at Alchemy said. But we did the same mixes again right there and then (so no one can accuse us of changing the mix), one with the laptop's sondcard and another with a high quality cardbus soundcard, and the two mixdowns sounded different. I've never done a null test and am not sure how to go about it, but we can all hear on different systems that these soundcards are making a difference to the resultant mix. The ME at Alchemy gave us all this theory about how this shouldn't be the case, but all of us including himself could hear that one mix was narrower and harsher than the other one. Even my girlfriend could hear the difference when played the mixes on different monitoring systems and different soundcards. I suspect it could be something to do with firewire or usb as we do all our mixes on laptops? |
A Deian wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 09:31 |
Yes we've done blind tests with different people in two separate studios. Also did a blind test at Metropois Studios in London with a mastering engineer called Tim Young. We played him three digital mixdowns using three different soundcards and he heard the difference too. He actually preferred the mixdown with the cheaper Tascam FW1804 soundcard, it was more grainy and less sterile (but wobbly). |
Andrew Hamilton wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 21:06 |
I thought I heard a difference with two different buffer settings in PTLE during a bounce to disk. However, a null test proved that both mixes were bit-identical. They still "sounded" different - as long as I knew which mix was which. But I already knew that they couldn't be (different sounding), since x=x. ); Andrew |
A Deian wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 20:39 |
Oh and yes everything was mixed ITB. The idea that buffer settings can change the way Samplitude reacts to plugins is interesting. Did a lower buffer make mixes sound more "forward"? Did a null test tonight after all. I lined up two mixdowns of identical mixes (they were mixed to 256kpbs mp3s using the same laptop and program) and clicked on the phase switch for one of them. One mix used a usb interface, the other used a firewire interface. Bounced 17 seconds of audio and uploaded the result here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/upyk62 I sincerely wish it did, but it doesn't sound like it nulled... Ps: Just in case I also bounced two mixdowns that used the same soundcard with the same settings, and this time it nulled. |
A Deian wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 13:24 |
For those mixdowns we used Cubase. The mixes do really sound like the output of each convertor though, like the 1616m mixdown sounds like the DA of the 1616m. And the laptop soundcard's mixdown sounds like the laptop's soundcard. We did the same test with no reverb and the mixdowns still didn't sound the same so it's not the reverb. There's definitely a link between the soundcard's output sound and the mixdowns but I can't work out why. Thanks for the help though, Steve! |
UnderTow wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 10:51 |
I am betting it is operator error combined with the placebo effect. |
A Deian wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 16:13 |
I'm here because I respect mastering forums, the average gy here should have better ears. A few "engineers" we've played the tracks to can't seem to hear the difference. They just dismiss it with the usual "placebo" effect or "you're just imagining it" quip. Admittedly the difference is small but big enough to make a difference to our sound. It's the same with pan laws and truncating, some people don't care saying the difference is negligible. But mastering guys care about this stuff. Honestly though I don't see why you insist that I'm hiding something, or "can't post on the Steinberg forum". Sorry for taking your time. |
cerberus wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 16:46 |
i don't know of any bug like this for cubase. it is possible if the hardware buffer is set too low, some plug-ins which have high latency may not perform correctly. that is the only plausible explaination i can think of at this time. jeff dinces |
A Deian wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 11:27 |
It's been suggested that we should try a newer laptop and a different firewire card so we'll do that and see if it makes a difference. Though the current laptop is Core2Duo 2.4 with 3gb ram so it shouldn't be the issue, unless the culprit is Windows. |
Geoff Emerick de Fake wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 17:04 |
it is clear that the differences lie in the reverbs; the random modulation is clearly audible. |
A Deian wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 11:27 |
It's been suggested that we should try a newer laptop and a different firewire card... |
TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 22:51 |
I don't agree with Alistair that your concerns aren't valid here. |
UnderTow wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 19:14 | ||
It is not that they are not valid here. It is that this is not the best place to solve the problem. This is first and foremost a technical problem with a technical answer. Not a listening problem. It can not even be determined by listening. Even if people claim they hear a difference, you still don't have any proof of anything! Before even looking at the exported files, the first step is to look at the export methods. That is step 1. If it can be determined beyond a doubt that there are no errors in the export methodology then you can move on to further tests. Step one hasn't even been touched on let alone determined beyond doubt. The fact that I seem to be the only one even questioning this shows that this is the wrong forum... But OK, fair enough, lets assume there are no errors... Then you move on to the next step in a process of elimination. Most DAWs have a way to load a project without any plugins loading. So load the project without plugs and bounce with various sound cards. Does it null now? If so you know it is a plugin issue and not Cubase as such. So you keep on working at it until you know what the problem is. You test on different systems. You test with different projects. You test with single files, two files, ten files,etc. If you discover that there is a reproducible bug in Cubase, you contact Steinberg and maybe make a post on the Steinberg forums to see if other people can reproduce it too. If other users can and this is indeed a bug that affects many Cubase users, Steinberg release a patch in no time because of the uproar this kind of flaw would create. (Hopefully). Going to a forum because you trust people's ears is a complete waste of time when the issue is a technical one. Ears can not be trusted. Certainly not anywhere near as much as good old methodological testing and a good process of elimination. Alistair |
A Deian wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 16:52 |
Subvert Beats - Thanks for the offer. The problem is not session specific, it even happens with mono WAVs. Would be happy to send you files although like I said we did a mixdown at another studio (Strongroom) with a desktop setup and there were no problems. If you're by any chance in London perhaps I can get in touch? |