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R/E/P => R/E/P Archives => Whatever Works => Topic started by: faganking on November 24, 2008, 07:03:36 PM

Title: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: faganking on November 24, 2008, 07:03:36 PM

A friend who lives in Nashville emailed me and asked if he should buy this. I simply replied "No". He then asked: "Why...Is it not a good board?"

http://nashville.craigslist.org/msg/909164646.html

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Podgorny on November 24, 2008, 07:11:49 PM

http://nashville.craigslist.org/msg/925589500.html

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Greg Dixon on November 24, 2008, 07:41:22 PM

Yes, I thought it was the PM1000s that were supposed to be inspired by API.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Wireline on November 24, 2008, 08:12:45 PM

I thought the 1000s were supposed to be the "Japan-neves", not API...

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: DarinK on November 24, 2008, 09:25:52 PM

I remember reading on here at some point in the past that the "good" yahamas are the pm1000, pm2000, m1516 & m1532.

I don't have any hands-on experience to verify this, though.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: jetbase on November 24, 2008, 09:28:26 PM

darink wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 13:25

I remember reading on here at some point in the past that the "good" yahamas are the pm1000, pm2000, m1516 & m1532. I don't have any hands-on experience to verify this, though.

I used an M1516 once to pull drum sounds (as in, I just set up to record & left) & I thought it sounded quite good.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Podgorny on November 25, 2008, 12:48:11 AM

Supposedly, the PM1000s are the "Neve-Like" models and the 1532s are "API-like".

But for two grand, I'd rather have the PM1000, or maybe an old Soundcraft.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: NelsonL on November 25, 2008, 02:07:44 AM

Some of the Yamaha stuff of that era features a discrete, 2520 pin compatible, potted op-amp. I think that's where some of this comes from. I have several but haven't done anything with them yet. The little mixer they came out of was pretty cloudy sounding.

Needless to say, the "sounds just like a bengali trident" rhetoric is out of control.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Berolzheimer on November 25, 2008, 02:30:43 AM

I have a pair of mic pres from a PM1000 and while I like them, I don't know that I'd call them Neve-like.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: mikeconrad on November 25, 2008, 08:08:44 PM

I'm ITB but use a Yamaha RM (recording mixer)800 for routing and such....anybody know of these or have an opinion? The few times I've mixed thru it I liked it.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: J.J. Blair on November 25, 2008, 08:47:58 PM

I've owned a couple PM1000s for use at my rehearsal studio.  They're pretty nice.  I don't know if they are really quiet enough for recording, really.  At last min weren't.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: organica on November 25, 2008, 08:56:36 PM

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 25 November 2008 20:47

I've owned a couple PM1000s for use at my rehearsal studio.  They're pretty nice.  I don't know if they are really quiet enough for recording, really.  At last min weren't.

I wonder about the mods though on this one ....... maybe a nice improvement ?
http://nashville.craigslist.org/msg/925589500.html

I had a PM1000 at my old rehearsal studio too  which got a lot of use ..... all analog recording situation for demos  . I guess it was earlier used as a live FOH mixing board at the State Theatre in Mpls in the 70's .  it was great .

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Podgorny on November 26, 2008, 01:38:01 AM

Fletcher?  Care to chime in?

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: littlehat on November 26, 2008, 02:44:39 AM

The PM1000 has great N3v3-ish sounding preamps, but lacks in output level as standalones. This may not impact WWforum low level recordists, as you can get very solid sounds at the levels they advise.
The EQ is a very primitive three band semi-para of the 73 type... totally non-surgical and not very musical.
I don't think the PM1k has direct outputs or channel inserts.
The mix bus sounds like mush when hit (not in a good way, in a smeary way).
There is no real routing compared to even a Blaringer or Make-me mixer. No true stereo inputs or outputs.
You can track with a PM1000, but racked up channels are actually better IMHO than the whole board since the pres and the XFMRs are the only really cool attributes.
I would not mix on a PM1000 unless I had to.

The PM2000 has great sounding preamps of the API school.
When in proper order, they sound excellent.
The EQ is a crude version of the 550A type, but lacks the vari-Q which makes the API significantly more useful and musical.
The mix buss and routing are usable, but not ideal since busses and masters aren't calibrated stereo faders but assignable mono faders.
I have mixed on a PM2000 and been happily surprised with the results. I also own one and have a great affection for it.

The m1516 and m1532 are very close in most respects to the PM2000 but have switchable redundant inputs for other applications (theater?, television?) and a slightly different EQ, metering and matrix.
I also own one of these that I track with regularly.

All three boards are XFMR balanced at every input, insert and output. I think all of them also share a weird design flaw, unbuffered meters. You can only switch them in to look at them, then switch them out. They adversely impact the sound in a way that I don't dig.

I consider all three to be among the best buys in pro audio.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Barkley McKay on November 26, 2008, 07:13:14 AM

mikeconrad wrote on Wed, 26 November 2008 01:08

I'm ITB but use a Yamaha RM (recording mixer)800 for routing and such....anybody know of these or have an opinion? The few times I've mixed thru it I liked it.

OT but to answer your query,I bought a Yamaha RM-804 (which does indeed look to be like a baby PM1000) off eBay for

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: 0dbfs on November 26, 2008, 10:40:42 AM

I believe that the M1516, M1532, and M916 use the same DOA (Discrete-Op-Amps) as the PM1k/2k...

This would be the main reason the consoles are referred to as "API Clones". API's use their own 2520 DOA while these yammi's use their own DOA which is apparently pin compatible with the 2520's...

The M series are also x-former i/o balanced although I'm not sure if it's the same part as in the PM's.

The channel-strips do not have a direct out, although they do have an insert send that is post EQ and unbalanced. The x-former balanced/modded channel DirectOuts's on the PM1k mentioned earlier may be connected up to the same point that the inserts were.

I don't have one of these consoles but I have been looking at them lately.

It appears to me that the pre-amp input section is use-able if you implement some sort of direct out...

The bus and master section is where it falls down IMHO.

If you are into DIY you can probably do something with it interesting. If you aren't then expecting a 32 channel API from a $2000 yammi is a bit of a stretch.

Cheers,
j

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Matt Allen on November 26, 2008, 11:58:00 AM

I worked two days on the console above that Fletcher sold at the owners studio in Nashville.

I will say in advance, it was difficult to hear anything, because I was in the same room with the musicians (not my choice), and there was a bad buzz in the headphone out.

The setup was the Pm1000 with 1-8 direct out to a MCI 110C 8 track, outputs returning to 9-16.
If I remember right you have to buss to the 4 outputs because there wasn't really a 2 mix, but then out of the buss you have another gain stage that was like main out.
I can't precisely remember, but I know it was kind of tough for me to find good gain staging throughout.

I didn't use the PM1000 preamps, because when I got there all his external pres were already plugged up and that's what he wanted.
10db of high end eq means 10db of noise included.
I don't think it sounded horrible, but I'm not too used to guerilla recording.
The situation made me not enjoy the console too much, though it probably wasn't its fault!

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: NelsonL on November 26, 2008, 12:54:55 PM

0dbfs wrote on Wed, 26 November 2008 07:40

I believe that the M1516, M1532, and M916 use the same DOA (Discrete-Op-Amps) as the PM1k/2k... This would be the main reason the consoles are referred to as "API Clones". API's use their own 2520 DOA while these yammi's use their own DOA which is apparently pin compatible with the 2520's... The M series are also x-former i/o balanced although I'm not sure if it's the same part as in the PM's. The channel-strips do not have a direct out, although they do have an insert send that is post EQ and unbalanced. The x-former balanced/modded channel DirectOuts's on the PM1k mentioned earlier may be connected up to the same point that the inserts were. I don't have one of these consoles but I have been looking at them lately. It appears to me that the pre-amp input section is use-able if you implement some sort of direct out... The bus and master section is where it falls down IMHO. If you are into DIY you can probably do something with it interesting. If you aren't then expecting a 32 channel API from a $2000 yammi is a bit of a stretch. Cheers, j

Also, as I understand it, the PM1K is fully discrete, but the PM2K is not. I think the PM1K may be unique in that regard.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: PookyNMR on November 26, 2008, 01:01:08 PM

What about the PM1800?  I may be able to get a good deal on one in good condition.  Do they sound good?  I've used the 2K, 3K, 4k, etc, but never one of these.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Greg Dixon on November 26, 2008, 04:21:00 PM

Yes, the PM1000s are all discrete. I bought 4 modules and racked them up. I'm running them with an unbalanced output and they sound good. Not at all noisy. I've never heard them in a desk, but from what others are saying, it seems like bypassing the busses is a good thing.

The other reason they might be noisy and mushy, is the need for the electrolytic caps to be replaced.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Bob Olhsson on November 27, 2008, 12:47:30 PM

John Windt who had previously worked for Quad-Eight (and Motown in Detroit) played a big part in the design of the PM-1000.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Pellet101 on January 24, 2010, 07:05:19 PM

I am in the process of putting together a studio around an yamaha m1516. I dont ahve a lot of experience with professional gear, but so far I am positive about the sound. The best outboard preamp I have in my studio is a focusrite green series, and based on preliminary tests I think the m1516 sounds better. I tracked drums and the sound off the desk was very good, although I am having trouble with my recorder. The m1516 doesnt have direct outs, so I am recording via the inserts, which operate at -6db nominal. I am wondering if this is a problem  - interfacing with my digital interface (which accepts +4db) or my multitrack (which operates at -10db). Does anyone know if this is a serious issue? I note that most outboard compressors operate at +4, so I dont know why they would design the inserts to operate at -6db?

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Pellet101 on February 16, 2011, 06:41:22 AM

Not that anyone cares, but an update 1 year on, did some more tracking tonight and I was just reflecting that I never recall getting a bad sound out of my M1516.  Did vocals tonight and they sounded great too.  THe high EQ is great but I dont care for the rest.  I just use the thing as my analog front end and monitoring / talkback section. I really like this desk.

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Jim Williams on February 16, 2011, 11:04:44 AM

Replace the old 2SC1000 transistors with 2SC3329 or 2SC2545 and the hiss goes away...

Title: Re: Yamaha Console/API Clone?
Post by: Tapani Rauha on February 19, 2011, 03:06:21 AM

I have PM1000 preamp modules but with caps and power supplies etc replaced by supposedly better stuff. The sound is exceptionally big in a transparentish accurate kind of way which may not be as pleasing for vocals as the pleasant sponginess/roundness/mushiness of some Neves.

Pushing the gain adds pleasant color and character. The top end is crispy in the API sort of way. Probably great for drums. The preamp modules with the output transformers from the same board are certainly VERY useful, especially considering price.

I would certainly rate these way above Chameleon Labs and Golden age Neve clone stuff.

Old PM1000s deserve salvaging from getting thrown into the garbage.