Post by: Fenris Wulf on April 22, 2006, 07:36:28 AM
Post by: wwittman on April 22, 2006, 01:08:01 PM
he DID.
and you didn't trust him! Shame.
Post by: Daniel Farris on April 29, 2006, 11:27:34 PM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 12:36 |
As a result of this and other experiences I instituted a policy of "no hip-hop or R&B." |
You can't come up with a better yardstick for measuring scumbags?
How about a sign that says, "No Black People"
Great story though. I had a similar experience a few years back, but I still work with black people when they call.
DF
Post by: Fenris Wulf on April 30, 2006, 04:10:16 AM
Post by: Samc on April 30, 2006, 05:42:02 AM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 09:10 |
Hip-hop is more trouble than it's worth, because of the large number of "artists" who behave like criminals. The "thug" culture is so pervasive in hip-hop (and in R&B as well) that I want nothing to do with it. Anyone who can play an actual instrument is welcome. |
Wow, you really said a lot here Fenris.
Can we infer from your "obviously" in-dept, scientific study of all the people involved in these two genres, that if we got rid of them we would get rid of, or at least significantly reduce crime, and bad music at the same time?
Post by: Daniel Farris on April 30, 2006, 09:25:21 AM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 09:10 |
Hip-hop is more trouble than it's worth, |
Well, I've never worked on much (if any) R&B, but my business is about 70% rock and about 30% rap, and I couldn't disagree more.
Lately, I've had a big surge in business from rap and hip hop artists, so my last two weeks' work have been pretty much entirely rap. The one thing that stood out to me as a prominent difference between my rap clients and my rock clients is this: They don't argue as much. They're respectful of one another (and me) in a way that my rock clientele is not.
I have found that rappers, when treated with respect (both for them as valuable clients and their music as a valid art), are far easier to deal with than rock bands... and far less trouble.
I don't listen to hip hop or rap, but I'll gladly work on it. And if I MUST work on a kind of music I don't personally enjoy, I'd rather the clients be more like my rap clients than my rock clients.
| Quote: |
because of the large number of "artists" who behave like criminals. The "thug" culture is so pervasive in hip-hop (and in R&B as well) that I want nothing to do with it. |
Well, it's good to know there's no stereotyping going on here.
| Quote: |
Anyone who can play an actual instrument is welcome. |
That's all well and good, except:
1.) You know as well as I do that 90% of rappers are black, and probably somewhere between %70 and %80 of black artists either do hip hop, rap, or R&B. I would never accuse anyone I didn't know of being a racist. That said, the policy itself *appears* racist to me... and I'm sure it does to others as well, given that most of the clients you turn away, based on that policy, are necessarily black.
What do your other black clients (the ones who don't do rap and R&B) think of that policy?
2.) Who are you to decide that an MPC4000 isn't an "actual" instrument? Or that Bobbly Brown, or R Kelley, or Mariah Carey isn't playing an "actual" instrument when they sing? Or that rapping isn't a form of singing?
3.) Is this policy legal?
http://tinyurl.com/ochnu
I'm sorry. I'm not really looking for a fight here, but I just had to ask about such a broad sweeping policy. Having lived my whole life in Bombingham, Alabamistan, where I see lots of subtle things like this, it just has a weird odor to it to me.
If you were a restaurant, I doubt your policy would be very popular (or as easy to hide).
DF
Post by: smorgdonkey on April 30, 2006, 12:29:58 PM
The entire genre will have to vacate the following topics before I'll ever be able to give it any credibility:
-I've got money
-I've got hos ( or b*tches, or whatever other negative term )
-I'm the best ( on the mic, with the ladies, etc.)
I don't think it's racist. The girl from the Black Eyed Peas is white and I think her lyrics and schtick are one of the worst ever.
By the way, I'm slighly 'peach' coloured.
Post by: electrical on April 30, 2006, 02:11:59 PM
Certain studios attract a hip hop clientele, and certain studios don't. If you get no joy from these sessions, it's probably because they're not your core clientele, and if you remain busy anyway, it won't be an issue.
Post by: wowats on April 30, 2006, 02:15:28 PM
what about public enemy?
chill out
Post by: Werewolf10 on April 30, 2006, 08:04:55 PM
"Commercial" rap is some of the worst shit known to mankind, I totally agree. "Commercial" rock is just as bad. Have you heard some of the 15yr old poetry that comes out of these 30 year old men?? I would love to see "Nickelback" "My Chemical Romances" and "Blink 182" die a horrible death, right along with "50 Cent" and "Ja Rule".
But there IS very good hip hopp out there, backed with very smart people. Such as "Outkast" "Eminem" and "Wu-Tang".. I am not a rap fan, but those guys are super talented and they do NOT talk about the same old gangster shit.
It's the mainstream that makes everything look bad, not individual jackass's like the "R-Kelly" guy.
Post by: The Octopus on May 01, 2006, 01:21:27 AM
| smorgdonkey wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 12:29 |
I agree with the no hip-hop thing...the 'rap/hip-hop culture' promotes violence and promotes devaluing the image of women in my opinion. The more someone is shot whether he survives or not is directly proportional to his popularity. The entire genre will have to vacate the following topics before I'll ever be able to give it any credibility: -I've got money -I've got hos ( or b*tches, or whatever other negative term ) -I'm the best ( on the mic, with the ladies, etc.) I don't think it's racist. The girl from the Black Eyed Peas is white and I think her lyrics and schtick are one of the worst ever. By the way, I'm slighly 'peach' coloured. |
This doesn't make any sense.
First, blanket statements about any group of anything are never accurate.
Second, rock culture has promoted violence and 'devaluing the image of women'.
Third, does 'the hip hop culture' do these things or is it just your opinion that it does these things?
What you're saying is that an entire culture is going to have to change if you are to work with one person who may be associated with that culture.
racist.
People should be able to sing about whatever they want. The fact that rock bands sing about these very same things, but you think that's ok because they're rock (read: white people music)is pure racism.
I don't like hip hop. The majority of what I've heard lacks depth. Hip Hop is still young and has plenty of time to develope.
But having a rule banning an entire culture from your services: Crap.
Jeremy
Post by: The Octopus on May 01, 2006, 01:23:12 AM
| Werewolf10 wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 20:04 |
... Have you heard some of the 15yr old poetry that comes out of these 30 year old men?? ... |
Oh yeah and excellent David Cross reference.
Post by: Plush on May 01, 2006, 12:21:57 PM
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 01, 2006, 06:36:11 PM
Post by: jlamour on May 01, 2006, 11:28:51 PM
| Plush wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 11:21 |
I know R. Kelly's going to jail. |
Nice one Plush. I'm laughing my ass off.
Post by: Oh! My Sea Captain! on May 02, 2006, 05:02:14 PM
Post by: The Octopus on May 02, 2006, 06:17:44 PM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 18:36 |
Too many hip-hop artists are REAL criminals who commit REAL crimes and brag about it in their music. There's a line between artistic expression and REAL violence. |
You must not record punk rock either. Or Frat bands. Or hardcore bands. or Scandanavian death metal bands. or..........
Post by: Daniel Farris on May 02, 2006, 08:25:23 PM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 23:36 |
So I'm a racist and I ought to be sued. Thanks. |
If you'd like to point to where I said that, go right ahead.
I asked if such a policy is legal and pointed to an example that I thought was distantly comparable.
(By the way, nice of you to "correct the record" by re-writing your entire post after letting the original one sit for a few days.)
| Quote: |
I don't do Christian Rock either, the music creeps me out and the labels are infamous for screwing you on payment. Are they gonna sue me too? Followed by the White Power bands and the National Association of People Who Don't Shower? |
Jeez! You should run a golf club.
| Quote: |
The right of free association includes the right to not associate with people, unfortunately this has been forgotten in the rush to criminalize behavior that doesn't fit your utopian ideas of social justice. |
Again, think of it like a restaurant. To what extent is a restaurant able to legally refuse to serve certain *groups* of people (not individuals, but groups)?
[Don't even get me started on the widespread use of selective implementation of dress codes (i.e. no baggy pants, etc.) to quasi-legally skirt racial discrimination laws.]
You're right the Supreme Court has ruled that the first ammendment implies a freedom of association but, according to 1976's Runyon v McCrary, which weighs the Civil Rights Act against the First Ammendment, businesses are not allowed to consider race.
I'm sure you'll be the first to tell us that your exclusion is not based on race. So I'll ask you again the pointed question you elected not to answer the first time I asked it:
What do your other black clients (who don't do rap, hip hop, or R&B) think of your policy?
I ask, because if you ever ARE sued, you had sure as fuck better be able to point to some.
| Quote: |
Too many hip-hop artists are REAL criminals who commit REAL crimes and brag about it in their music. There's a line between artistic expression and REAL violence. |
How many is too many? And what evidence can you offer to show that the majority of those who rap about such things REALLY do them?
The problem here is that you'd prefer not to work with gangstas (fair enough) and can't think of a better way of keeping them out, so you resort to excluding ALL genres of primarily black music, now that blues and jazz belong to white people.
Perhaps you aren't a racist. Maybe you're just a poor judge of character.
[EDIT: I'd like to add that the vast majority of racists I have ever met truly did not think they were racists. That's the new racism.]
| Quote: |
If you record hip-hop, you are inviting criminals into your studio and putting yourself at risk to get robbed or attacked. |
This is the most ridiculous (and unsupportable) xenophobic stereotype I've heard in recent memory (and I've heard some good ones.)
That is a PERCEIVED threat. If it were a REAL threat, those of us on this board who have been successfully working with rap and hip hop artists for years without any trouble AT ALL might PERCEIVE it as well.
Crime is an individual thing, not relegated exclusively to one race or group. You might consider doing some soul searching and ask yourself if you unconsciously think of crime differently when it is committed by white people... which it is, and often. And you can't use their music, whether they are white or black, as a barometer for whether or not they're going to commit a crime against you.
Would you care to guess what group of people are, statistically, most likely to commit a crime? Hint: It isn't black people, nor is it rappers.
Give up? It's POOR people.
Again, maybe you should run a country club.
Truth is, you haven't reduced your risk of being the victim of a crime. What you've done is made yourself more comfortable.
In fact, the one shady scam artist I encoutered (which I referenced in my first post on this topic) was a Reggae artist. Do you work with reggae artists?
DF
Post by: John Ivan on May 02, 2006, 09:08:55 PM
In Detroit, you could book HIP HOP and RAP sessions everyday for a year and you WOULD have a room filled with violent felons almost every day. Call this what ever you want, I just call it Detroit. It is very very likely that if your buddy across the street from you, booked Rock Sessions everyday for a year, he WOULD HAVE dumb asses that can't tune and have bad judgment in his room every day. Book the Evangelical 's in every day and you get people who qualify every other sentence with "well, I'm a Christian, so," as if what they say will now have more weight!!
The truth in the inner City is that many many of the cats who are booking HIP HOP sessions are doing so with money they received dealing Dope to our kids. I'm not guessing here because I've lived in this and know it well so, argue if you want but it's fucking true. We have REAL problems in our cities and one of those problems is that entire parts of our cities are run by 20 year old cats who make $1000.00 per day violently protecting their drug sales territory.
You can find all kinds of people who are willing to screw you. White, Black ,name a culture and a background and you will find slime inside.
Are there Great people Booking these sessions too? Sure. Just not very many. It doesn't really matter to me if HIP HOP guys wanna TRY to book me. I might do a session for them. But, believe me when I tell you that a HUGE number of these guy will either be directly involved with a gang and Packing,or, they will have people with them that do/are.
It's just true. Sorry.
JI..................................
Post by: Samc on May 03, 2006, 02:35:23 AM
So there you have it folks, no need to continue debating this, more conclusive evidence has been dumped on us.
Here are the most salient facts of these two highly scientific studies as presented by their authors:
1) Most or all of the people involved in Hip-Hop, Rap and R&B are criminals and
thugs, and In Detroit (at least) most, or all, are also violent felons. They are
involved in gangs, and they, and/or someone in their immediate group is
always carrying an (illegal), concealed firearm.
2) Rap/Hip-Hop culture promotes violence and the devaluation of women in our
society.
3) Most or all the people involved in the above mentioned (musical?) genres,
can not play a musical instrument, and hence are not musicians.
4) Many studio sessions for these genres are payed for with drug money. In all
cases, the drugs were sold to kids by young gangsters who violently protect their
drug empires which include entire parts of American cities.
5) Although there are a few good people involved with these genres, the vast
majority are bad people.
6) Rap/>Hip-Hop is more trouble than it's worth???........whatever the fuck that
means.
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 03, 2006, 05:52:39 AM
Post by: Daniel Farris on May 03, 2006, 06:20:23 AM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 10:52 |
I considered asking Steve to delete this thread, |
Lotsa luck with that.
| Quote: |
because the opinions I have expressed, using my real name, might conceivably be used in a bogus lawsuit against me (like Derrick Mosely threatened to do when I told him he was banned from my studio). |
Then stop digging...
| Quote: |
But no. Fuck that. I'm not going to hide from a santimonious liberal twit who wants to force everyone else to conform to his utopian ideas of social justice. |
...and stop putting words in my mouth.
I never said that I thought you (or anyone else) should be forced to do anything. Nor did I opine one way or the other about the video duplicator who may or may not be forced to duplicate tapes he disagrees with. Essentially what I said was that I thought your stated policy reflected negatively on your character.
You may (or not) be a bad person, but I don't think you should be forced to be a good person. That would kind of cheapen the naturally good people I so often meet.
(And yes. I'm a pinko commie liberal. A well-armed one, but a liberal nonetheless. You'll get absolutely no apologies from me about that.)
By the way, the only clients I have *ever* refused to work with are a bunch of lame white motherfuckers called Bright Black, and it's entirely because of their completely psychotic pseudo hippie front man. If they can make a record without him, they're welcome here.
DF
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 03, 2006, 07:02:08 AM
Post by: jimmyjazz on May 03, 2006, 11:27:25 AM
| electrical wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 14:11 |
To defensively (generally) exclude hip hop sessions from your studio is ridiculous and smacks of racism. |
Huh? It might smack of "hiphopism", but I think it's a bigger stretch to label Fenris as racist than it is for him to label hiphop clientele as "risky".
People get correlation and causation mixed up all the time. Doesn't make it right.
Post by: McAllister on May 03, 2006, 12:25:42 PM
To refuse to record anyone based on skin color -- now that's a whole other issue.
M
Post by: Vertigo on May 03, 2006, 12:55:02 PM
It's very tempting to take on their projects - you can easily make a couple of $k in a day just to record a couple of vocal tracks along to their beats. But you never know what element you're bringing into your studio. Being that my studio is in my home, I shy away from these projects as well, unless the artist is a personal friend of mine.
I have a good friend who ran a Hip-Hop studio here that quit the business for good a few years ago. For what it's worth he's black/african american/whatever the politically correct term is these days. He had a lot going for him - he had a very talented young rapper that he'd just taken in, as well as a top notch beat writer. He was producing their project on spec and had a fair amount of money tied into it.
One night he was working late when a group of men bashed the door down and broke in. They put a gun to his head, duct taped his eyes, mouth, hands, and legs, and put him face down in a bathtub while they robbed the place. And it turned out that the person who tipped these guys off to rob the place was the very same young rapper he'd taken under his wing.
Not that this couldn't happen with a rock act, or even a christian act for that matter. But when you consider the content of the music and the fact that the best rap comes from the rappers that are the most sincere about the lyrics they're singing, well... I'd rather work on songs about flowers and kittens...
-Lance
Post by: Vertigo on May 03, 2006, 12:59:30 PM
| Quote: |
Besides, hip-hop is not a "black only" genre. |
It is if you're talking about GOOD hip-hop
Although there IS something addictive about Faf Larage...
-Lance
Post by: John Ivan on May 03, 2006, 03:04:57 PM
| John Ivan wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 02:08................It's just true. Sorry..............[/quote |
So there you have it folks, no need to continue debating this, more conclusive evidence has been dumped on us. Here are the most salient facts of these two highly scientific studies as presented by their authors: 1) Most or all of the people involved in Hip-Hop, Rap and R&B are criminals and thugs, and In Detroit (at least) most, or all, are also violent felons. They are involved in gangs, and they, and/or someone in their immediate group is always carrying an (illegal), concealed firearm. 2) Rap/Hip-Hop culture promotes violence and the devaluation of women in our society. 3) Most or all the people involved in the above mentioned (musical?) genres, can not play a musical instrument, and hence are not musicians. 4) Many studio sessions for these genres are payed for with drug money. In all cases, the drugs were sold to kids by young gangsters who violently protect their drug empires which include entire parts of American cities. 5) Although there are a few good people involved with these genres, the vast majority are bad people. 6) Rap/>Hip-Hop is more trouble than it's worth???........whatever the fuck that means. |
2-4-and 6 are true in my opinion and the rest are up for grabs. It's very very hard to explain this to people who have not been directly in it's path over and over.
My post is ONLY and observation. " A blue car passed by my house". It's just like that.
I can't speak to "the majority" and to the extent that I generalized, perhaps this was wrong of me but, I can't help that what I stated has been MY truth and experience.
Sometimes, things are what they are whether we like it or not. It's hard to swallow.
A huge part of my "growing up" as a player and person was done learning from great R&B/SOUL players in Grand Rapids and Detroit and Lansing. These cats lived in very dangerous places in some cases. As time has moved on, these places have gotten worse not better.You see, all of a sudden, you don't need to know anything about music to make a record. I thought we had all noticed this by now. The great folks who showed me the ropes can barely work now. Why do you think that is? It may indeed be different on the high end of the hip hop thing but down here where the budgets are small a lot of these guys are out to send a message. In some cases these records are a way of communicating to rival gangs.
It's trip and very scary stuff. Our kid's are being killed by each other in the streets and the only folks who notice are getting blood on their shoes.
Welcome to America.
JI..................................
Post by: John Ivan on May 03, 2006, 03:26:06 PM
| Vertigo wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 11:55 |
Being in Atlanta, I'm pretty familiar with the goods and evils of taking on Hip-Hop clients. Not all Hip-Hop artists are violent drug dealing felons, of course. But a lot of them ARE... It's very tempting to take on their projects - you can easily make a couple of $k in a day just to record a couple of vocal tracks along to their beats. But you never know what element you're bringing into your studio. Being that my studio is in my home, I shy away from these projects as well, unless the artist is a personal friend of mine. I have a good friend who ran a Hip-Hop studio here that quit the business for good a few years ago. For what it's worth he's black/african american/whatever the politically correct term is these days. He had a lot going for him - he had a very talented young rapper that he'd just taken in, as well as a top notch beat writer. He was producing their project on spec and had a fair amount of money tied into it. One night he was working late when a group of men bashed the door down and broke in. They put a gun to his head, duct taped his eyes, mouth, hands, and legs, and put him face down in a bathtub while they robbed the place. And it turned out that the person who tipped these guys off to rob the place was the very same young rapper he'd taken under his wing. Not that this couldn't happen with a rock act, or even a christian act for that matter. But when you consider the content of the music and the fact that the best rap comes from the rappers that are the most sincere about the lyrics they're singing, well... I'd rather work on songs about flowers and kittens... -Lance |
Sad to here this. A great Friend of mine called me last year and told me a story about his friend. There was a disagreement of some kind about the money owed to his friend who had recorded some stuff for a guy. The guy showed up one day and blew his brains out.
Sad!! and this sort of thing is not uncommon. It used to be uncommon. So, I can't say "what this means" other than to say it ,in some way, speaks for it's self.
I have many many African American friends both musically and though our school and our Hood. They are as troubled by this trend as anyone else.
JI.........................................................
Post by: Werewolf10 on May 05, 2006, 06:37:29 PM
And what about the audiences of this "Dangerous Music"? The main audiences are suburban white kids! NOT ghetto criminals and drug dealers..
As Fugazi said : "Nevermind whats been selling, It's what you're buying"
Your kids that is......
Post by: imagineaudio on May 07, 2006, 12:21:22 AM
Post by: chris haines on May 09, 2006, 10:18:17 AM
Post by: iCombs on May 11, 2006, 12:26:15 PM
| Vertigo wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 11:59 | ||
It is if you're talking about GOOD hip-hop Although there IS something addictive about Faf Larage... -Lance |
Let us not forget Atmosphere. Slug is my favorite MC anywhere, anytime. And he's a white kid from Minneapolis.
Post by: wiggins on May 12, 2006, 07:11:12 PM
| chris haines wrote on Tue, 09 May 2006 10:18 |
anybody have a link for the sex tape? |
word.
Post by: Jason Phair on May 14, 2006, 07:54:08 PM
Point made with same logic: "If you play guitar in a heavy metal band, you're going to get shot on stage"
Post by: John Ivan on May 14, 2006, 09:53:28 PM
| Jason Phair wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 18:54 |
Point someone made: "Rappers are and associate with violent people - working with them might get you robbed." Point made with same logic: "If you play guitar in a heavy metal band, you're going to get shot on stage" |
This is just crazy. You are talking about an isolated incident. A Nut job killed a guy at a rock show. Period.
You can like it.Not like it,understand it,or not understand it but the truth is that in the inner City,if you are recording Lot's of RAP, because of how and where a whole lot of your clients live, there is a very very good chance you will be dealing with people who would think nothing of beating your ass for reasons that we who DON'T live how and where they do, just don't understand.
This is as true as wheels being round. Period.
It's not EVERYONE WHO MAKES RAP RECORDS but a whole bunch of these cats are dealers and gang members.Why is there anyone left in the country/world who does not understand this?.
JI..............................................
Post by: jimmyjazz on May 14, 2006, 11:15:43 PM
| Jason Phair wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 19:54 |
Point someone made: "Rappers are and associate with violent people - working with them might get you robbed." Point made with same logic: "If you play guitar in a heavy metal band, you're going to get shot on stage" |
Uh, what? Bad parallel, Jason. Doesn't work, much as you want it to.
Post by: Tomas Danko on May 15, 2006, 08:58:42 AM
| Jason Phair wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 00:54 |
Point someone made: "Rappers are and associate with violent people - working with them might get you robbed." Point made with same logic: "If you play guitar in a heavy metal band, you're going to get shot on stage" |
Don't even mention those metal/rap-bands out there these days!
Post by: kraster on May 15, 2006, 08:41:40 PM
| jimmyjazz wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 04:15 | ||
Uh, what? Bad parallel, Jason. Doesn't work, much as you want it to. |
I think Jason's point is about the danger of making sweeping generalisations about anything.
The unavoidable subtext put forward by certain individuals in this thread is that Rap Music is populated by dangerous and violent black people. The characterisation of a certain group of people having an inherently bad trait is known as prejudice. The implication that this is a race issue marks this prejudice as racist.
It's true that a lot of Hip-Hop deals with and, in some cases promotes, issues that are violent and illegal but in a lot of cases these are simply reflections of the society that the Hip-Hop guys come from.
And before somebody decides to take issue with the whole sexist angle of Rap Music I don't think good ol' Rock n' Roll is something that would stand up to much scrutiny as a beacon of moral fortitude in relation to women's role in society.
This isn't a libertarian utopia point of view. Prejudice and the exclusion of people based on perceived threat will only reinforce the prejudices that people hold and that never helps any society progress.
If there are individuals within any genre of music that behave in a socially unacceptable way whilst using your facilities, by all means, you are perfectly within your rights to get rid of them. But there's no need to tar everyone with the same brush.
Post by: Buzz on May 15, 2006, 08:54:21 PM
If there are individuals within any genre of music that behave in a socially unacceptable way whilst using your facilities, by all means, you are perfectly within your rights to get rid of them. But there's no need to tar everyone with the same brush.[/quote]
Hey if the tar them dont they get to feather them too ???? BAD QUOTE IMO
LAter
Buzz
PS: Just kidding
Post by: John Ivan on May 15, 2006, 10:44:34 PM
| kraster wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 19:41 | ||||
I think Jason's point is about the danger of making sweeping generalisations about anything. The unavoidable subtext put forward by certain individuals in this thread is that Rap Music is populated by dangerous and violent black people. The characterisation of a certain group of people having an inherently bad trait is known as prejudice. The implication that this is a race issue marks this prejudice as racist. It's true that a lot of Hip-Hop deals with and, in some cases promotes, issues that are violent and illegal but in a lot of cases these are simply reflections of the society that the Hip-Hop guys come from. And before somebody decides to take issue with the whole sexist angle of Rap Music I don't think good ol' Rock n' Roll is something that would stand up to much scrutiny as a beacon of moral fortitude in relation to women's role in society. This isn't a libertarian utopia point of view. Prejudice and the exclusion of people based on perceived threat will only reinforce the prejudices that people hold and that never helps any society progress. If there are individuals within any genre of music that behave in a socially unacceptable way whilst using your facilities, by all means, you are perfectly within your rights to get rid of them. But there's no need to tar everyone with the same brush. |
I agree with what you say here and would like to point out again that I play a lot of music with Black people and have lived on and off in the inner city Black communities. I don't turn people away unless I have reason to believe that they are dangerous. I have also dealt with my fair share of dangerous white people and now live in the Latino end {north side} of Lansing.People are quite poor here too.
I am pointing out a failure in our society. I feel that our minority communities have been left to rot and not enough has been done to educate poor people from every Race.
The specific Problems I've seen up close have to do with young Gangs forming to sell drugs and protect their interests. This has to do with Money made from selling drugs,turning out Hookers, throwing huge parties and very cleverly stealing expensive things without being caught. This describes the typical Gang and they come in all stripes. There are white Gangs engaged in the same activities.
As it turns out, many of these guys like to make RAP records and have a lot of money. Before it was "Hip" for white kids to emulate this culture, it was for the most part a black art form. It is also worth pointing out that Black people who headed off to university or started their own businesses were less likely to be interested in making RAP records.So, it was in many cases, young gang kids with a lot of money from the street making these records. Now that it's hip, everyone wants to do it.
I simply am not a racist. I say this in case anyone get's this idea either from something I wrote or something someone else has written, or might write in the future.
JI..............................
Post by: kraster on May 16, 2006, 01:21:24 PM
| John Ivan wrote on Tue, 16 May 2006 03:44 |
I agree with what you say here and would like to point out again that I play a lot of music with Black people and have lived on and off in the inner city Black communities. I don't turn people away unless I have reason to believe that they are dangerous. I have also dealt with my fair share of dangerous white people and now live in the Latino end {north side} of Lansing.People are quite poor here too. I am pointing out a failure in our society. I feel that our minority communities have been left to rot and not enough has been done to educate poor people from every Race. The specific Problems I've seen up close have to do with young Gangs forming to sell drugs and protect their interests. This has to do with Money made from selling drugs,turning out Hookers, throwing huge parties and very cleverly stealing expensive things without being caught. This describes the typical Gang and they come in all stripes. There are white Gangs engaged in the same activities. As it turns out, many of these guys like to make RAP records and have a lot of money. Before it was "Hip" for white kids to emulate this culture, it was for the most part a black art form. It is also worth pointing out that Black people who headed off to university or started their own businesses were less likely to be interested in making RAP records.So, it was in many cases, young gang kids with a lot of money from the street making these records. Now that it's hip, everyone wants to do it. I simply am not a racist. I say this in case anyone get's this idea either from something I wrote or something someone else has written, or might write in the future. JI.............................. |
Hi John,
As I said in my post if anyone feels that certain individuals are a threat then banning these individuals from your facility is the right course of action. I can see that your policies are based on common sense and you only, rightfully, want to protect yourself. You certainly don't come across as racist.
I'd be more concerned with the policy that bans people wholesale based on a genre of music. A genre that "just so happens" to be a predominantly black one. The catch-22 in society is that if you prevent people from pursuing something that could get them out of their poverty then they remain poor and disillusioned and the reason for banning them stays the same. And certainly, there are bona fide and talented black artists out their that should be given the space to create.
I'm even more concerned with the policy of the media to persistently put the gangsta image forward as something for black people to aspire to. I don't see the record company execs in a hurry to offer an alternate view or aspiration. They merely exploit ghetto "glamour". Presenting it as some kind of life where women, drugs, and Cristal abound. This is far from the reality of the inner-city black communities you mentioned.
Post by: jimmyjazz on May 16, 2006, 03:43:45 PM
| kraster wrote on Tue, 16 May 2006 13:21 |
I'm even more concerned with the policy of the media to persistently put the gangsta image forward as something for black people to aspire to. I don't see the record company execs in a hurry to offer an alternate view or aspiration. They merely exploit ghetto "glamour". Presenting it as some kind of life where women, drugs, and Cristal abound. |
But that's the stereotype being promulgated by most mainstream rap & hiphop acts! It may not be an adequate characterization of ALL people working in that genre, but it's certainly the lyrical focus of a solid majority, and the visual focus of a solid majority of those who make videos.
I won't argue for a minute that hard rock dealt with many of the same things over the years. I think the biggest difference is that rock acts rarely advocated violence, which just can't really be said about rap & hiphop.
For me, it's a fairly easy choice to make. I don't listen to very much of that music, so I don't feel qualified to work on it. The same goes for classical, jazz, and to some degree, country. If I don't have something to offer besides some nice gear, a decent room, good pitch and a quick punch finger, I don't want to work on the project. I like being more involved than that.
Post by: John Ivan on May 16, 2006, 05:09:33 PM
.Kraster,
Very well stated and I agree with you. Simply sending folks out the door out of fear is bad news. If you don't feel qualified to work on something, that's one thing but I would encourage folks to reach out and try to engineer as many styles as possible. I did a few Folk things with all acoustic Guitars, stand up, fiddle, Banjo and boy. It Kicked my ass at first and I learned a lot and can now do it.
I'm not a fan of Drum Machines AT ALL but have been forcing myself to learn "that sound" with all those damn Loops and what not. It's making me a better Engineer too because I'm having to overcome MY taste and serve the tune. It's hard work.
Recording a rock band? or an Old school blues or soul thing? Easy in comparison for me because that's who I am.
JimmyJazz,
You are right that the "mainstream" Hip Hop and Rap folks are cleaning up on this Bad ass image. Most of the Black folks I know are growing very tired of this now. They tell me personally that "It's good the story of "the street" has been told but when do we start working and growing through these problems?"
All good points.
The larger African American community at large that I know are doing what we are all doing. Working,trying to pay our bills and make a life for our Families. The universal human quest for happiness. Hers to that.
JI..........................................
Post by: kraster on May 17, 2006, 10:28:49 PM
| jimmyjazz wrote on Tue, 16 May 2006 20:43 |
But that's the stereotype being promulgated by most mainstream rap & hiphop acts! It may not be an adequate characterization of ALL people working in that genre, but it's certainly the lyrical focus of a solid majority, and the visual focus of a solid majority of those who make videos. |
But why does the media focus on gangsta? Gangsta Rap used to be one of the many sub-genres of Hip Hop. Nowadays it's rare that you hear anything but gangsta rap.
There are still other Hip-Hop styles in existence but these are overlooked. The fact that there is a solid majority of rappers going for the gangsta thing merely indicates how successful it is. When any music is commercially successful it always spawns a million clones that want a piece of the action. I guarantee you if 50 cent started rappin' about the environment and had a big hit with it you would see an overnight change in subject matter from everyone else. (Shuddering at the thought)
The gangsta chic angle is an entire industry unto itself. Just walk down any high street and you'll see kids paying inordinate sums of cash on clothes, shoes and jewellery in order to look like poverty stricken black kids from LA.
Go figure!
As with all things nowadays they are just selling a myth. Behind all the glock-waving, cash-flashing, booty calling antics there is a cold calculating corporate mind that filters out the grim reality of the streets. What the kids get is a glossy MTV lifestyle. One big ol' party back at the crib. It's an attractive and powerful image particlularly to those that live in that grim reality.
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 18, 2006, 04:06:26 AM
Post by: Daniel Asti on May 18, 2006, 03:21:08 PM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 07:36 |
Here's a tale of a scumbag posing as a musician ... I wonder if Steve or any other Chicagoans heard about this ... In 2000/2001, when I had a studio in the Chicago area, I did some recording and mixing for an R&B singer named Derrick Mosley. He never had any money on him, and kept promising to "pay me next time." |
All this really tells me is that you lack business skills. But it's more than that... It's a lack of people skills. It's no ones fault but your own that you kept working for free. Your biography on this site seems to indicate your a sucker.
I've shown this post to almost everyone whose come through the studio today because of how much it really rubbed me the wrong way (I saw it yesterday). But it was a wonderful woman who is older and African-American whose whose thoughts on it really made me want to reply. She has worked with everyone from Kanye West to Tom Dowd in her years. She said that it used to be "like walking on eggshells" with certain engineers and in certain studios, where being black "they watched you like a criminal" ("Tom!?" - "Oh No! Honey, Not Tom, He was wonderful"). And she said it's not racist but "hatist". I can really understand the truth in that because of the way this was passed on the board - "Hey guys let's all have a discussion about music based on my experience with one criminal." There are so many generalizations and stereotypes in some of the replys and they come from people who don't really know either genre well enough to be commenting on it.
For instance if I just go to MTV.com - look at soul/R&B. I get GNARLS BARKLEY "crazy" - which is a great song - wonderful recording and an outstanding video. John Legend is an extraordinary talent. Mariah Carey - Say Something is a very well done tune which has the signature Neptunes melody. The Shakira - Rihanna - Mary J. Blige - LL Cool J and Jamie Fox tracks I don't care for as much but they round out the rest of what is listed on there. Associating Derrick Mosely's criminal actions with those artists is hateful and criminal itself.
What was hilarious was I had to keep explaining to her that Steve Albini did not post this, she kept saying, "but I love Nirvana". Even joked that I should post it on Def Jam's message board.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 07:36 |
He acted like a big-shot wheeler-dealer businessman, and he kept saying "I know R. Kelley." |
Not to mention the swampland... what a difficult situation for you that must been, sounds like a real trickster...
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Sat, 22 April 2006 07:36 |
Finally, he ended up stranded at my studio because his current girlfriend/meal ticket got mad at him and wouldn't come to pick him up, and I had to drive him home to Gary, Indiana, which I did to get rid of him rather than have him hanging around. I was extremely pissed off and told him not to come back. I found the guy VERY creepy. As a result of this and other experiences I instituted a policy of "no hip-hop or R&B." |
You had to drive him back? Your such a nice guy! You should make some T-shirts up - "I recorded Derrick Mosely and All I got was this stinkin' t-shirt!"?
It's ok to not record hip hop and R&B or any other genre but coming to that conclusion and judgement is just like saying you won't record rock and roll and country because you were hustled by someone who stole a mic. Again it's just you poorly rationalizing a deeper hatred. How often are you alone burning with hate just thinking "Nigger!"? When you turn on the radio or TV? When you are driving? Be honest now...
I know you said you had "other experiences" but I've been engineering long enough to know that if you run your business properly you don't get scammed.
It's wrong for Steve to just call you a racist because you are a little bit more than that. Instead of just saying that you are - you try to word your way around it by basically offering up ... "oh, I tried to be real nice and work with those monkeys and see where it got me!" BULLSH*T ... Keep the hate man! Stay negative! White power!
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 18, 2006, 07:28:21 PM
Post by: Daniel Asti on May 19, 2006, 12:18:06 AM
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
Modern hip-hop has become COMPLETELY dominated by the "gangsta" style and this is true on every level from MTV to the street. |
Actually it hasn't "become COMPLETELY dominated" which is why I wrote for you to go to mtv.com and click on soul R&B and actual look and listen to what was up there. I listed everything that was there. I don't see any "gangsta". The Mariah Carey track that is up there has nothing to do with "gangsta", ironically the vocal is, "say something good to me". Pharrel - who wrote that track - IS AN EXTREMELY GOOD MUSICIAN AND PRODUCER - he has a knack for writting pop hits and selling records.
Gnarles Barkley - crazy - another track UP THERE NOW - IS ALSO MUSICIANS and A HELL OF A TALENTED SINGER as well as a great video - if you bothered to look and listen to the music or what I wrote.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
Gangsta rap has become insanely popular ... |
Kanye West - Late Registration was by far the best selling album of last year. Jon Brion, one of the best studio MUSICIAN/songwriters I've ever heard period is on almost EVERY TRACK. There is tons of Vocal work and live orchestra ALL over the album.
John Legend - who won a best new artist grammy - is R&B and his PLAYS PIANO and EXTREMLY WELL.
You are talking about something that I WORK IN EVERY DAY. WITH REAL MUSICIANS WHO PLAY REAL LIVE INSTRUMENTS. I know this industry inside and out. Trust me, Fenris, you know little about R&B or hip-hop and you obviously feel like stereotyping a genre with your ears plugged up.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
I will record anyone who can play a musical instrument. That's my policy. |
Only if it's not a hip-hop or R&B, right? Again, I SAID it's OK to say no HIP-HOP and R&B. It's even ok to not like black people but you offended me and other people who read your posting by comparing them to Mosely. Don't you get it?
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
You are a mindless, politically correct twit and I do not have to justify myself to you. |
Good argument except for the fact that you started the thread you should be able to justify what you say. You say most hip-hop / R&B is "gangsta", "on the street and on mtv". But mtv.com click on soul/r&b and none of it's gangsta.
Again your post offended people - people found it racist - you don't have to justify it but to be starting it on an engineering forum is kinda crappy.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
The worst Derrick Mosely did was waste a few days of my time. I had no ill-will towards the guy, I kind of felt sorry for him because he was such a loser. That also goes for the former employer mentioned in my bio, who had serious mental problems. These were learning experiences. |
Actually Derrick Mosely's actions brought about your "No hip hop / r&b" policy. And you were happy to share your story about him while associating it with EVERYONE involved with hip-hop and r&b.
From a business standpoint a "No pay no play" policy would have worked. But again, you could have come out and just said, "I don't like hip-hop and r&b and I won't record it in my studio." I DON'T have a problem with that at all. Theres a studio a block from here that won't do anything but classical.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
I know for a fact that a well-respected guy who posts here refuses to work with Christian Contemporary bands. In his experience, Christian labels are some of THE sleaziest people in the business and they think they have a right to stiff you on payment because they're doing "God's work." |
Again, it's business. "No pay no play" works great for us here. I would believe there are sleazy people in every genre and part of society. I've been around long enough to know that MOST people are GOOD PEOPLE, unless you act like a doormat and don't run your business correctly, you probably will be able to make things go very smooth. I wouldn't just say all Christian labels don't feel like they should pay for things that they purchase and use though. I wouldn't throw out the entire carton because of one cracked egg.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
Why doncha go and accuse him of being a crypto-pagan devil worshipper who is plotting to bring back the Colloseum and throw Christians to the lions. |
No way, I don't know what he wrote, I don't know who he is and I don't speak like that anyway.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
In this business, you have to be a hard-ass or you will get RAPED by all the sleazebags out there and you will go bankrupt. |
I think it's painfully obvious that you are the last person who should be giving out business advise or telling it like it is. Some people don't get "RAPED" or have to be a "hard-ass". I just set my fee and I never work for free and grown year over year for the past 6 years.
| Fenris Wulf. wrote on Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28 |
Get the stick out of your ass, get Dr. Dre's dick out of your mouth, and stop living in a utopian fantasy world. |
Wow - I guess I didn't read that correcly til just now. I felt like I made some serious points about how your stereotypes and generalizations offended myself and others.
It offends me because this is what I work with EVERYDAY - it's what I do for a living. You do need to know that what you write is very insulting on a personal level and you can't just run away from it by saying that "oh well this one song by this one rapper was just as bad."
In your lack of understanding of the genre you don't even realize that I don't talk like that or record content like that. Neither do most people!
Post by: jimmyjazz on May 19, 2006, 01:14:05 AM
So tell me . . . what are the odds I will have loaded, concealed weapons in my studio if I record rap & hiphop in a major urban area like Atlanta, Houston, Detroit, LA, etc. What are those odds with punk/hard rock/metal? Country?
Another issue, which might actually swing the pendulum in rap & hiphop's favor: what about drugs & search/seizure issues with the local cops? I'm not interested in losing my studio because some guy is doing 8-balls in the bathroom.
Honest questions. Which genre is likely to bring artists to my studio who are armed? Doing narcotics? Having sex in the vocal booth? (Wait, that's not illegal, and it's already happened around here. Too many times, I might add. Clean up after yourself, assholes.)
Post by: groucho on May 19, 2006, 02:38:59 AM
| Quote: |
I will record anyone who can play a musical instrument. That's my policy. |
So presumably you would turn away Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, the entire cast of American Idol...etc. etc.?
Anyway, if Fenris feels threatened by a particular group of people, it's only sensible that he protect himself by banning them.
What this thread really shows in abundance is how painfully little he knows about the group he feels threatened by. It appears that most of his information about Hip-Hop culture comes from the sensationalist reports one might expect to see on Fox News.
The single incident he described in his 1st post was a textbook example of bad business practices and an utter lack of common sense, but to HIM, it represented the excuse he'd been wanting to act on his fear.
The tragedy here is not that he's a racist and HURTING other people with it. Hip-hop will go on just fine without him. The tragedy - as with all people who are ruled by fear and ignorance - is that he is cutting HIMSELF off from a richer (in both senses of the word) studio-owning experience. Not to mention a huge body of vital American music and experience.
I feel sorry for him. As I do for all the sad people out there who are ruled by fear of things they don't understand. With the helpful assistance of our fear-mongering media of course.
Chris
Post by: Fenris Wulf on May 19, 2006, 04:34:36 AM
If a rapper was introduced to me and I saw that his music was positive, I would make an exception. I'm a big fan of old-school hip-hop, and I also enjoy hybrid acts like Black Eyed Peas, The Roots, and Outkast.
I threw out a careless statement which was misunderstood. I'm sorry if anyone felt I was insulting them or their clients. But when people jump on me, call me a racist, and imply that I ought to be prosecuted, fined, and imprisoned for my business practices, THAT is offensive. This discussion is asinine and I have nothing more to say about it.
Post by: Daniel Asti on May 19, 2006, 11:56:58 AM
| jimmyjazz wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 01:14 |
Disregarding the fact that I know virtually jackshit about rap & hiphop, save a few CDs we all own, I see it as a typical risk/reward situation. What's the risk I'll have problems in the studio? What's the potential reward? (Certainly getting paid counts, but all my clients pay. Will I expand my horizons? That's cool. I like that. What else?) So tell me . . . what are the odds I will have loaded, concealed weapons in my studio if I record rap & hiphop in a major urban area like Atlanta, Houston, Detroit, LA, etc. What are those odds with punk/hard rock/metal? Country? Another issue, which might actually swing the pendulum in rap & hiphop's favor: what about drugs & search/seizure issues with the local cops? I'm not interested in losing my studio because some guy is doing 8-balls in the bathroom. Honest questions. Which genre is likely to bring artists to my studio who are armed? Doing narcotics? Having sex in the vocal booth? (Wait, that's not illegal, and it's already happened around here. Too many times, I might add. Clean up after yourself, assholes.) |
It's a good question and I can answer it only from my personal perspective. I deal with basically 80% Soul/R&B/Hip-Hop - I do alot of "fix it work" (i.e. "this is wrong" or "this just sucks - gotta fix it quick!" - some surround work - some restoration, etc.. I have a decent live room - and I have what I consider a great vocal and soloist booth which I designed. I have worked in studios in London - Los Angeles - Boulder/Denver as well as Brooklyn/Manhattan and I'm now in my own spot in Long Island City (about 350 yards from the Empire State Building). There are probably 20 studios within walking distance of here. I'm also 20 minutes from major labels and mastering studios like Sterling and such.
I have a part-time secretary. I create as professional of an environment here as possibe at least for a smaller studio. A no BS environment - no smoking - no drinking ... I very rarely have to lay down boundarys. People that come here behave like professionals and come here to get work done. If I knew someone had a gun in here I would probably tell them to never come back and definetely to leave before I called the police. If they had some weed they could smoke it outside - people of all style of music smoke weed I find. Personally, I can't work if I smoke it. If they had coke or smack I would also ask them to leave my studio and tell them to get some help but cokeheads and junkies get swallowed up pretty quick. It's very difficult for artists these days (as always I suppose) - you have to work very hard - maintain a grueling schedule - be in the right places and then the window of opportunity is so, soooo small and the average lifespan is so short. Being high is not going to give you a great opportunity to take advantage of it.
I was in London in the early 90's in my very first studio job and you would definetely know that some bands were high or hungover. But as the engineer you have leverage - you can record them and call the label - send them the crap they recorded and say "it was out of my hands, that'll be $3000 please!". Getting wasted in the studio is a very expensive mistake. The same goes for any other distraction and artist in every genre tend to understand that.
Post by: Daniel Farris on May 19, 2006, 02:12:22 PM
| jimmyjazz wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 06:14 |
So tell me . . . what are the odds I will have loaded, concealed weapons in my studio if I record rap & hiphop in a major urban area like Atlanta, Houston, Detroit, LA, etc. What are those odds with punk/hard rock/metal? Country? |
The first time I saw a loaded gun in my studio, it belonged to a rock musician. I've never seen one at a rap session.
| Quote: |
Another issue, which might actually swing the pendulum in rap & hiphop's favor: what about drugs & search/seizure issues with the local cops? I'm not interested in losing my studio because some guy is doing 8-balls in the bathroom. |
I had spoon burns on my bathroom sink long before I ever worked on my first hip hop or rap session.
I caught another rock group cutting lines on my CP-70, and I sent them packing. And don't get me started on rock bands and drinking. Fuck! I had a guy go into my bathroom, take careful aim, and piss right the fuck into the corner onto the floor.
Rock musicians are worse with drinking than any of my rap clients are with any other type of annoyance.
With rap, the worst I've seen is guys slipping out back to smoke weed. Fine. They barely (or rarely) even drink.
Mind you, my work is mostly rock. I have about 8 to 10 regular rap clients that make up about 30% of my business. But this isn't the result of carefully choosing or training my clientele. I work for anyone who calls, pretty much without exception.
(I've never been faced with being asked to record a white power group. The problem with that is, I figure, that they'll probably be here and well into the session before I figure out what kind of music it is.)
DF
Post by: rankus on May 23, 2006, 06:09:17 PM
| bacon skin wrote on Fri, 19 May 2006 11:12 |
I had a guy go into my bathroom, take careful aim, and piss right the fuck into the corner onto the floor. DF |
LOL I had a BLIND punk rocker in once who got shitfaced drunk and when he went to the bathroom,,, well let's just say he used hearing to detect when he was hitting the toilet.....
Post by: Daniel Farris on May 23, 2006, 09:11:10 PM
| rankus wrote on Tue, 23 May 2006 23:09 |
LOL I had a BLIND punk rocker in once who got shitfaced drunk and when he went to the bathroom,,, well let's just say he used hearing to detect when he was hitting the toilet..... |
Reminds me of the blind piano tuner who did the same thing at my place. Unfortunately, his pitch was about as good as his aim.
Have a seat, pal.
DF