Keef wrote on Wed, 21 July 2004 10:44 |
So besides the extra faders, what does the high end console offer that the cheaper setup would not give you? |
Keef wrote on Wed, 21 July 2004 12:09 |
Is it worth spending over 100K though? |
Giovanni Speranza wrote |
The answer is: Did you hear them? If yes, you will know. |
Giovanni Speranza wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 06:56 |
ROTFLMAO meaning? Rolling on the floor laughing....??? |
Bob Olhsson wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 09:11 |
The purpose of a console isn't sound quality. It's to facilitate performance both in front of the microphones and in the mix. Anybody who thinks large consoles are going away anytime soon probably isn't very well grounded in how recordings are PERFORMED. |
Touchwood Studios wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 12:52 |
What would have people said if 20 years ago someone on a soap box would be standing a saying "Most of the music/video/film/composing will be done with computers." They all would have laughed. Never say Never. |
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It's nice to have a neve but you can't avoid it's homogenus sound (that stands for every console of course).But this somehow,blocks original sound to be born. |
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title=Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 06:01 What we have today is just a cheaper version of what was being used at the high end 20 years ago. |
Rob G wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 21:26 |
I agree with you regarding some of your comments as far as large consoles being an acoustic problem, & their high price. But the problem with large consoles being an acoustic problem in real case scenarios is'nt a problem. Why, because most of the individuals that purchase these expensive large format consoles also hire expensive studio designers(Whitemark, RBDG, ADG, & etc.) to make sure that the size/shape of the console is a non issue. |
Rob G wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 15:02 |
I think you need to update yourself regarding current highend consoles, & room design trends. The new Neve/88R's for example have been designed with a new shape that allows the sound to travel around the console with minimal interference to the room acoustics. (snip) |
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And, I don't know about you but I stopped putting nearfields on the console top years ago. |
Touchwood Studios wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 18:52 |
What would have people said if 20 years ago someone on a soap box would be standing a saying "Most of the music/video/film/composing will be done with computers." They all would have laughed. Never say Never. |
Rob G wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 19:20 |
commissioned almost 10 years ago. And monitor placement(height as well as angle, & depth behind the console) greatly contributes 'in part' to 'the fix' of this age old problem. |
Rob G wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 14:02 |
I think you need to update yourself regarding current highend consoles, & room design trends. The new Neve/88R's for example have been designed with a new shape that allows the sound to travel around the console with minimal interference to the room acoustics. And SSL for years has made available custom options that fit on the back of the console, & in between the console wings that improve, or eradicate this problem. [...]'Rob G.'. |
Rob G wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 10:37 |
bobkatz, I absolutly 'hear' where you're coming from. I've also had the misfortune to be in some poorly designed/maintained control rooms where the console was an issue(many years ago). But I don't hear that so often these days(maybe it's the rooms I've been in most recently). I have a question though(you probably know better than I especially based upon you're knowledge of the Holman text, & such). What system testing equipment/proceedure to your knowledge is best at detecting comb filtering effect, & other anomolies in control room monitoring, & tuning. And what do you think of 'Bob Hodas', & his room tuning equipment, & techniques? 'Rob G.'. |
Rob G wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 10:37 |
Almost any system that can do anechoic measurements can detect the comb filtering: TDS; Spectrafoo, MLSSA.... I have Spectrafoo and it works fairly well, but buggy. I'd like to get something more stable but I'm not an acoustician, I only play at it |
Rob G wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 23:13 |
bobkatz, Another example is Transcontinental's 9000J room(which is right in your home town). That room does'nt seem to have problems with comb filtering effects. Ross Alexander(whom if I recall correctly was the acoustic designer for Transcontinental's 9000J room) did a great job of designing that room. I've used the main monitors there, & mixes off of that monitoring system translate well almost anywhere with great results even if there is slight comb filtering going on which apparently is on the level of being a 'non-issue' based upon the mixes coming out of there. 'Rob G'.' |
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2.)The clangy 'tin' panels I've not noticed(sonically). Not in 'The Tracking' room in Nashville, 'Studio A' at Transcontinental in Orlando, Starstruck in Nashville, Electric Lady in New York, or any other studio that has SSL 9000J's, or 4000 series consoles. |
Rob G wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 22:00 | ||
1.)You say "......found nowhere in the real world."......... . I don't get what you're saying. These consoles exist in many major studios(Conway-LA, AIR-UK, Ocean Way-LA, Hit Factory-NY, Larrabee-LA). |
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2.)The clangy 'tin' panels I've not noticed(sonically). Not in 'The Tracking' room in Nashville, 'Studio A' at Transcontinental in Orlando, Starstruck in Nashville, Electric Lady in New York, or any other studio that has SSL 9000J's, or 4000 series consoles. Granted the music I work on is high volume Rap, Rock, R&B, & etc.. But that doesn't matter. I'm always close enough to the console to detect any form of clanginess or rattle. As a matter of fact when ever I first audition a room one of the first things I do is walk aroung the room to see how the room sounds in a variety of positions(including at the extreme sides of the console). So it would be hard for this to escape me because I do 'look around', and listen around as well. 3.)I agree with you that the console occupies a HUGE physical/acoustic footprint in these types of installations but if it's such a problem then why do so many excellent mixes come out of these specified rooms? This footprint is a 'non-issue' to me as an end user due to the fact that the acousticians have apparently solved the bass buildup/combfiltering problem(at least in the rooms I've mentioned, don't know about others) therefore I can't agree with you in this area. Now how much time the acousticians spend in doing CAD designs to get around the console problem I have no idea. But I do know what I've heard, & seen. And the results seem tangible to me. |
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4.)I agree with you regarding the large console flattery effect (I'm flattered myself). I don't endorse holding the position of use of the console to influence decisions to carry more weight, or intimidate people. I don't encourage those types of situations although they do exist but not if I can have anything to do with it. |
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5.)I personally can't afford one of these large format consoles but I will employ one in production if the budget permits. Yes things are being done more, & more in the box. But these large format consoles are nowhere near being put into retirement just yet. So I feel that you, & any others that might be ready to put the nails in the coffin for these large format consoles are going to have to hold off for a little bit. 'Rob G.'. |
Rob G wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 23:00 |
2.)The clangy 'tin' panels I've not noticed(sonically). Not in 'The Tracking' room in Nashville, 'Studio A' at Transcontinental in Orlando, Starstruck in Nashville, Electric Lady in New York, or any other studio that has SSL |
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3.)I agree with you that the console occupies a HUGE physical/acoustic footprint in these types of installations but if it's such a problem then why do so many excellent mixes come out of these specified rooms? This footprint is a 'non-issue' to me as |
Rob G wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 15:04 |
bobkatz, I'll try the sine wave technique you mentioned. I regularly use the signal generator in Pro Tools for this when checking for blown speaker's/diaphram's, driver fatigue, and other such things. But still I doubt that I'd miss some rattling. I have reference tracks that during breaks(automated solo's), & such drop everything out except the drums with one containing an 808 kick that has the top filtered off, & the pitch descending to the point of what would be the free air resonance of several control room mains systems. If that reference track can't expose 'anything' loose in a control room none will. |
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Regarding excellent mixes. I'd say that Shania Twain's mixes are on a high level(even the ones done almost 10 years ago in 'The Tracking Room' if I recall the credits correctly). |
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Alicia Keys has a few mixes that are stellar( done at Electric Lady, once again if I recall the credits correctly). |
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It kind of depends on the genre of music you're listening to. What's considered a proper recording/mix balance of a kick drum in 'Country' realm is'nt going to play well in the 'Rap' field where tracks are still 'gritty' but a 'polished' type of grit these days vs. ten years ago where if the track was'nt mostly 'grit' it was'nt considered Hip-Hop. |
Rob G wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 19:26 |
bobkatz, I agree. David Banner does'nt a catch my attention as far as sonic excellence. In the Rap/R&B category 'Outkast' really caught my attention sonically, |
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track that caught my attention the most). But if you want excellence no matter what genre then the Al Schmitt engineered 'Diana Krall' recordings absolutely take the cake. Or if you listen to SACD check out the 'Red Rose Music' SACD's. But, like I |
Rob G wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 15:37 |
bobkatz, I absolutly 'hear' where you're coming from. I've also had the misfortune to be in some poorly designed/maintained control rooms where the console was an issue(many years ago). But I don't hear that so often these days(maybe it's the rooms I've been in most recently). I have a question though(you probably know better than I especially based upon you're knowledge of the Holman text, & such). What system testing equipment/proceedure to your knowledge is best at detecting comb filtering effect, & other anomolies in control room monitoring, & tuning. And what do you think of 'Bob Hodas', & his room tuning equipment, & techniques? 'Rob G.'. |
Rob G wrote on Thu, 26 August 2004 17:24 |
You think that the vocals sound messed up on Diana Krall's 'The Look Of Love' album? Most people don't think bad of the recordings on that album, me included. I guess it's just personal taste. And once again I like her 'The Look of Love' album. The most recent one, not at all. 'Rob G.'. P.S.: That's also the album of her's that got a 'Grammy' for best engineering. I'm puzzled here. |
Tim Gilles wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 10:48 | ||
George. This strikes me as an absurd statement. Plain and simple. Then again.... You really don't make records for a living anymore. Now do you? Maybe you're starting to forget stuff. Ya know.... Getting a little foggy. So. In the same mean-spirited, reckless, and bullshit mindset you whipped that little gem off in... Lemme say this.... Maybe some people who used to design hardware, now primarily design software. Maybe those same people have figured out they can potentially spend a lot more time golfing, and a lot less time sweating, if they do everything in their power to perpetuate a technological trend that utterly eliminates a tremendous amount of manufacturing, marketing, and service issues, and results in them dramatically improving their bottom line. Guess that just about wraps it up for me. Tim |
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Wow. In your hilariously inept and wholly uninformed analysis of what's important, practical, sonically satisfying, and pertinent in modern record production.... You couldn't have made a better case for the continued viability of the LFAC. Marvelous job. Thank you. Tim |
Keef wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 22:41 |
I think we are missing some things in the chat translation. I am sure if we chatted in 5 min. we would agree on some things and have our pref. on other things. Of course having a large console is nice. If you have a big project who the hell wants to jump back and forth with plug ins and different hard and software. If you have a great mixer, you have your EQ and dynamics all there. Then your work flow is easy as hell and you don't have to bull sh*% with anything. If you are doing this for a living, then there is nothing to discuss. Get what you need and do it! I guess what point was missed was if you don't do large studio work, the benifits of the big console is not waranted as you would get by pretty easy with a smaller console/controller with using outboard gear. Plus the cost is way way less. Hell even the new PT Icon only has 24 faders unless you get a second one to work with the first unit. Sorry for the mix up/ |
Keef wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 04:41 |
I think we are missing some things in the chat translation. I am sure if we chatted in 5 min. we would agree on some things and have our pref. on other things. Of course having a large console is nice. If you have a big project who the hell wants to jump back and forth with plug ins and different hard and software. If you have a great mixer, you have your EQ and dynamics all there. Then your work flow is easy as hell and you don't have to bull sh*% with anything. If you are doing this for a living, then there is nothing to discuss. Get what you need and do it! I guess what point was missed was if you don't do large studio work, the benifits of the big console is not waranted as you would get by pretty easy with a smaller console/controller with using outboard gear. Plus the cost is way way less. Hell even the new PT Icon only has 24 faders unless you get a second one to work with the first unit. Sorry for the mix up/ |
George Massenburg wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 00:16 |
Large consoles at this point in time exist only to flatter the operator and encourage those who stand behind him (particularly record company A&R) to believe their opinions carry more weight for them, and to intimidate all others. |
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posted by Paul Frindle: When I was engineering I found a good method to appreciate it (or at least change it so you were aware of it) was to stand up from time to time. Also with practice the standing up - sitting down procedure would allow you to hear what part of the sound was caused by the combing - cos it changed more than the direct sound when you stood up. This could illustrate which annoying artefacts might not persist in the mix outside the studio environment - and you could possibly therefore worry less about them. |
George Massenburg wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 16:16 |
Large consoles at this point in time exist only to flatter the operator and encourage those who stand behind him (particularly record company A&R) to believe their opinions carry more weight for them, and to intimidate all others. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 08:51 |
Since my studio IS an apartment, I know what my mix will sound like IN an apartment, at any given place in that apartment. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 00:21 | ||
George, As a professional mixer in LA, I couldn't disagree with you more. In my opinion, your records from the 70's and even early 80's sonically put to shame anything you've put out in the past 10 years. To me, your words say one thing and with brevity, but your history of work speaks volumes in absolute disagreement. Eric Sarafin |
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posted by an anonymous french mouse: You will know exactly how your mix sounds in YOUR appartment. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 23:21 | ||
George, As a professional mixer in LA, I couldn't disagree with you more. In my opinion, your records from the 70's and even early 80's sonically put to shame anything you've put out in the past 10 years. To me, your words say one thing and with brevity, but your history of work speaks volumes in absolute disagreement. Eric Sarafin |
Wyn Davis wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 01:57 | ||
The absence of large format consoles will not change this part of the equation. Instead of a large physical console, we will see 60" wall mounted plasmas displaying a UI to ever more sophisticated and arcane software. This leaves us with the same amount of "Wizard of Oz" potential. I have noticed the tendency of engineers, (particularly bad ones), and A&R guys to use whatever technology is being employed as a tool to befuddle, confuse and mystify the people they are supposed to serve, (the artist). You may be right about the future of large format consoles, but their absence alone will not be our salvation. Wyn Davis Redondo Beach, California |
George Massenburg wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 18:45 | ||||
But Eric, most of the records I did, I did with small mixers! Only two that I can recall did I use big boards outside of the GML boards (which qualify as "small" boards...i.e. minimal signal paths...no dynamics...lotta time on one's knees patching). Those two records were: Cry Like A Rainstorm (which found me fighting an egregiously horrible Neve V every fucking step of the way) and Joshua Judges Ruth (on a Focusrite, which I used to like). The early stuff was on small Bushnells (API's, but basically a 32 input mixer, not a big board, and no dynamics). Interesting about the Focusrite. Most A-list studios have gotten rid of them because clients wanted 88's or J's. Certainly not for the sound, either. I stand by my statement observing my work and others' across a 40 year career. Except for some admittedly important ergonomic features (getting to a control fast, and having that control be very responsive) big boards are in and of themselves a waste of money. George |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 00:54 |
The reality is that most recording and mixing will be done inside of computers. That fact will not change, and the results will keep getting better. Steve Shepherd |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 05:54 |
Eric, If you want to work on a big console, I think that's what you should do. Steve Shepherd |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 06:54 |
Good work is being done inside of wholly digital systems. If you want to work on a big console, I think that's what you should do. It sounds great and It's working for you. The reality is that most recording and mixing will be done inside of computers. That fact will not change, and the results will keep getting better. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 07 September 2004 00:00 | ||
Steve, Thanks for your permission. I really appreciate it. Now, I have a question for you based on your statement above. Do you, or do you NOT, think that the only reason I choose to work on a "large console" (you've used the word "big," I believe that we have been using the word "large" here), regardless of what you define as a "large console," that I am doing so to "flatter myself," and "intimidate others?" If your answer to this question is "Yes, I do," then please state specific reasons why based on your personal knowledge of me and how I work. I look forward to your reply. Please keep it under 50 words if you could. The glass eye makes it hard to read really long posts. Sincerely, Eric Sarafin |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 05:56 |
No Eric, I don't think you use large consoles to intimidate people. I think you use them for the same reason that I did. Because if you're mixing stuff with 60+ tracks, and you're going to use a console, then you're going to need a large one. Steve Shepherd |
Kenny Gioia wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 08:44 |
It is a neccessary evil when you deal with "modern" producers who can't make a fuckin' decision. |
Fletcher wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 08:15 |
IV-I !!! |
Fig wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 17:01 | ||
A question sir, if you please:
Is that the classical Plagal Cadence or is there another meaning? Totally agree with your statements, BTW. Best regards, Thom "mixes on a console" Fiegle |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 16:01 |
Eric, Only, always, every, never...Nothing is ever always true, or always the only answer, or the only way of looking at a situation. |
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You seem to like using language as a means of intimidating others. Why should I think you would hesitate to use a large console to do the same if it suited your purpose? |
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Large mixes can't be done on a small console for obvious reasons. But they can be done inside of a computer. Computers can even be used to intimidate people, in much the same way as large consoles. Have you noticed that? Steve |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 02:17 |
[...]We have established that there are at least four respectable working professional mixers (you, me, Time Gilles, and malice) that do NOT, and/or NEVER HAVE used large consoles to "flatter [our]selves" nor to "intimidate others." Given this, would you or wold you NOT say that the following statement by GM is a gross over-generalization? "Large consoles at this point in time exist [only] to flatter the operator and encourage those who stand behind him (particularly record company A&R) to believe their opinions carry more weight for them, and to intimidate [all] others." -George Massenburg Before you answer, please notice the word "only" in his paragraph, which precludes us from any other possibilities. [...] |
George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 08 September 2004 19:27 | ||
I hereby retract the words "only" and "all". Replace "only" with "often". Delete "all". I stand by the rest. |
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Imagine this...[snip]...a tiny (24" x 14" x 4") virtual controller - this is a new technology that couples invisible probes that you wear on your head wirelessly to a controller whereby you can access 10,000 controls almost instantly with nearly complete reliability. |
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Imagine this situation. Big record company playback books your control room. Playing back a $750,000 budget production that's taken way too long to finish. President & V-P A&R are hearing the record for the first time. Under assistant A&R wasn't advised that your 72ch 9000J was taken out in favor of a tiny (24" x 14" x 4") virtual controller - this is a new technology that couples invisible probes that you wear on your head wirelessly to a controller whereby you can access 10,000 controls almost instantly with nearly complete reliability. But there's nothing to put your feet up on. Nothing to have your picture taken with. Nothing to lean on. In fact the guys from the record company are getting vertigo without something big and heavy in front of them. They leave for Larrabee, a studio that knows perceived values and their inviolate place in record production. I dunno. Could happen. |
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poste by extreme mixing: Who spilled the beans about alcohol improving your judgement during mixing? I was trying to keep that quiet. We don't want everyone to know about it! |
Eric Vincent wrote on Fri, 10 September 2004 01:01 | ||
Well, too late, the catss outaa the baag. I jush got shloshed, and mixted a toon, and it shounds GREAT! (burp_) The shtereeo shpread ish jus shtumpendusss... (burp/_) Gonna go take a nap under the con sole now. |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Fri, 10 September 2004 16:47 |
...You drink your rum and coke Say it's all been a joke, And you were just pretending. I can't believe you think, That with just one drink, You could change the ending... Drinking is not the best way to improve a mix. I've seen some guys do it, but it never worked for me. Steve |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 22:39 |
I think that your use of the term "large console" is a bit misleading. I didn’t realize that you defined a “large” console as one larger than 32 inputs, and with in-line dynamics. I personally find any console with more than 24 inputs to be a large console. So we seem to have a large chasm in what we view as “large.” |
Extreme Mixing wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 03:35 |
Thanks Peter. It's a lot like driving. You may think you're better, but NOBODY DRIVES BETTER WHEN THEY ARE DRUNK. Steve |
thermionic wrote on Mon, 13 September 2004 10:28 |
IMHO, rotary faders are underrated and slide overrated... |
natpub wrote on Mon, 13 September 2004 09:11 |
large? |
Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 13 September 2004 22:50 | ||
You aren't alone, back when we had a choice most people I know preferred rotaries provided the knob was big enough. That was the rub because you could get a lot more controls in a lot less space using sliders. |
Roland Storch wrote on Tue, 14 September 2004 02:54 |
But it is difficult to move only 2 rotary faders simultaniously (with exact same speed), with more than 2 it is almost impossible. |
Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 14 September 2004 09:11 | ||
Only when the knob isn't big enough or the pot isn't good enough quality. As far as I know this kind of gear hasn't been manufactured in over 40 years so to a certain degree one had to have been there to really understand what we are saying. |
Peter Oxford wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 00:55 |
I must to try to organise a live debate on the subject, and want to get Mr Basil Brush (a leading authority on the subject) who lives locally, to chair the debate between the opposing sides. Peter Poyser |
bobkatz wrote on Sun, 22 August 2004 20:34 |
The technique I was taught with TDS was to put an absorber on the suspect surface, and compare the frequency response with and without the absorber. |
Tim Gilles wrote on Wed, 15 September 2004 08:36 | ||
Really? Fascinating. I think that's an embarrassingly poor attempt at a "Spin". George is entitled to his opinion. And so am I... And, as a person who mixes records for a living, and has, for 2 decades... I found his statement ridiculous, irresponsible, childish and wholly suspect... Which, considering the source... made it pretty damn offensive. That's why I called him out on it. Bull in a china shop which doesn't serve his current agenda. Sensitivity indeed. SM. |
Lynn Fuston wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 00:34 | ||
Am i the only one that has to put pillows on top of a J to be able to hear the sound without the early reflections? And that wonderful acoustic mirror right there in the center section. Whose idea was that? |
Tim Gilles wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 12:33 |
[...] I can't speak for any of you other cats on here.... Maybe I'm alone in this mindset but.... I work hard to accomplish a state of transcendent and uplifting joy in mix. And in the course of my work, I try to embrace my every failure as a shining opportunity to learn. And in learning, to better myself..... and in bettering myself, to(hopefully) better serve the needs of the artists who seek my creative collaboration. And finally.... I mix because I genuinely love music, and I hope to someday make an enduring record.... a record truly worth hearing, and remembering. A little something that says...."Yo! I was here.... I got lucky!... I had some fun!" As a guy who routinely responds to the "Holy Shit!!!" utterances of my clients (upon entering the control room I work in every day, beholding what is IN that control room) in a fashion roughly akin to.... "Yeah.... It's a lotta expensive, blinky, junk, that keeps me from having a life..... hopefully we can make it sound like something...." |
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I took umbrage to your statement. I found it offensive. |
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I view myself as an artist, and in keeping with the 'folk-lore' precedents of that walk of life.... I am both proud and happy to "wear my heart on my sleeve". You wanna poke fun at that? |
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Go at it. 'Cause if you do..... I sure won't feel angry about this.... But I will probably feel some deep disappointment, and maybe even a little pity. Best regards to all. Tim "Rumblefish" Gilles |
George Massenburg wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 16:18 |
2> Market factors. The big desks aren't selling like they used to. Support is probably the one thing you count on when you put down big bucks. To take the mildest stance, noone in the industry is betting new money on building ground-up companies designing big boxes for the music recording industry. Buying a big box for big bucks means amortizing it over far longer than 5 years. Remember that the gold standard in console quality is less the 88-R's and J's and more the custom 8078's that are going on their third decades. I would very much worry that these big-box companies will still be in business in 5 years, much less 20 years, unless their fortunes improve. That leaves you holding the bag. |
malice wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 23:21 | ||
I can see your point George, and I agree with the 8078 statement, although you could easily add Tim's main desk to the well designed large console imho. |
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That said: I personaly find the "market factors" argument really bothering. I mean, I was pissed when my studio manager removed the Studer to put the brand new shitty digital mitsubishi paradigm for the same "analog is dead, the market (read record companies) wants digital now" horseshit. |
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You claim that no new better large consoles have been designed since the 8078, and I can see your point. Does it mean we have to accept it and surrender to the growth of mediocrity ? |
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Let's face it, sonic excelence is more and more the aim of small companies as bigger ones put an end to their Pro audio dpt, therefore we are stuck with tons of rack gear and tube mic "re-creations" while nobody's manufacturing large desk and analog tape machine anymore. Is that what you really want ? |
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Because your original statement that pissed Tim sounds like you feel comfortable with this situation, and coming from you more than anyone might hit some nerves among some of us. I was pissed too, you know ... |
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malice Don't take umbrage at my response, I was trying to explain Tim's point of view. |
George Massenburg wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 14:57 |
What kind of desk does Tim use? I can't tell from the studio's web site pictures. One shot shows an MCI. Enlighten me here. |
MB wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 08:20 | ||
"Studio A, designed by Jeff Blenkinsopp, features the Amek/Neve 9098i" http://www.bigbluemeenie.com/A.html |
George Massenburg wrote on Thu, 16 September 2004 18:47 |
O.K., I made an extreme statement, and I'm perfectly willing to compromise my stance if you can give me something more solid than, "I pity you". George |
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posted by malice: I can't help but remembering the things that made me chose to become an AE and a producer. Somehow I think that this large MCI desk and the smell of the tapes in the morning ... |
Eric Vincent wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 22:46 | ||
That's nice. But for many of the rest of us, it was a love for and facination with the actual MUSIC which inspired our career choices. We like to utilize gear which makes our quest for realizing the artist's vision easier, not getting in the way. And for a lot of us now, the large console does not fit that scenario. |
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I'm seeing a lot of use of the words "objectionable," "offensive," and "disrespectful" directed at George on this thread, all because he expressed a (valid in my view) opinion. The people throwing those words around are the very same people who have been making "objectionable, offensive, and downright disrespectful" statements about Pro Tools and its userbase for as long as these forums have existed. |
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Which begs the question: Why the sudden demand for sensitivity and political correctness? Could it be the sheer validity of George's statement is what stirred such a controversy? |
George Massenburg wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 14:57 |
And AMEK is a Harman International company - not a corporation known best for their altruism. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Fri, 17 September 2004 14:45 | ||
George, There is a big difference between writing off the future production of large consoles for lack of interest, quality and/or economic feasibility; as compared to actually writing off the PEOPLE whom still prefer to use large consoles--new, old or otherwise. Such a write off is objectionable, offensive, and downright disrespectful to many of today's recordmakers and shop owners. This is hard to understand, why? Eric Sarafin |
George Massenburg wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 07:28 |
What are you saying here? I didn't write off - I don't write off - anybody. Tim wrote me off. George |
Pricey wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 22:20 |
I don't know who this Gilles guy is, but I think he just won the argument the Japanese way. |
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All I know is that I've been recording and mixing in-the-box for about 5 years, and it just doesn't cut it. At least not for rock & roll. It's too linear and too invariant. It doesn't give me enough hands-on sonic control (and I'm not talking about the "control surface" issue). I'm FINALLY moving up to 2" 16-track, real outboard, and a real (i.e., discrete Class-A analog) console. |
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I would sure as hell hate to see analog console design die out. |
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And now we have a legendary, groundbreaking AE giving analog a push as it teeters on the edge of the grave, because he's too lazy to BLEED for his art, like he did in the old days, and accept the annoyances and imperfections that are the price you pay for sonic greatness. And the same guy is a major shill for Pro Tools, which IMO is a pathetic system with all kinds of ridiculous flaws and limitations. I am, of course, referring to Mutt Lange. |
Pricey wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 00:41 |
I've always enjoyed George's forum, and he has infinitely more class than Mutt Lange. But I think he's contributing to a destructive trend in audio. |
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I'm pissed off that I can no longer buy a new 2" machine, or a quality vacuum tube, [note: depends on what you mean by "quality" doesn't it?] or a small-diaphragm tube condenser [note: like a cheapie from China maybe?], or a decent guitar amp. I have to haunt the vintage gear ads just to find stuff I can USE. Now people are saying that console manufacturers and even TAPE manufacurers might go out of business. WTF?!? Analog needs to be improved, not abandoned. Digital is not analog and it never will be. |
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Mr. Gilles shouldn't be embarrassed -- George said something dumb and deserved a little chain-yanking. |
George Massenburg wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 07:14 |
Which is exactly why "analog" won't disappear. But the application of the best analog techniques will more-and-more be relegated to those places where they absolutely can't be eliminated. To that, I can only speak for myself. I abandoned analog recording on magnetic tape because I perceived that I myself could go no further to "improve" it. I've never abandoned analog processing, and still spend some significant portion of my life every week going over some facet of analog design. |
Pricey wrote on Sat, 18 September 2004 23:20 |
I don't know who this Gilles guy is, but I think he just won the argument the Japanese way. All I know is that I've been recording and mixing in-the-box for about 5 years, and it just doesn't cut it. At least not for rock & roll. It's too linear and too invariant. It doesn't give me enough hands-on sonic control |
George Massenburg wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 07:14 |
.some of my most esteemed colleagues, Steve Albini among them, are quite vocal and clear in their opinion that I'm a senseless (though well-meaning) idiot, and that recording on analog tape represents the ultimate in recording production. |
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posted by electrical: If I booked time at a studio, and they showed me the control room, and it didn't have enough actual audio lines and equipment to do what I do everyday unimpeded otherwise, I would tell the manager he can fuck his new paradigm, and tell him he shouldn't conduct social/technical experiments on my session, and then leave. |
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I would also punch him on the way out... |
Pricey wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 14:57 | ||
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Bill Mueller wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 09:40 |
[...] George's inflamitory statements make something clear that has existed for years. He is and has always been in the camp with the project studio owners. Someone who has paid $500K for a console with 96 mic preamps may not be in the market for another outboard preamp or compressor until he has paid off the beast. However there are lots of high end project rooms who can afford to have the best analog electronics, and they go to GML [...] |
Eric Vincent wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 22:35 |
Artists and bands who choose "new paradigm" studios do so out of a desire for an alternative not just to analog tape and consoles, but to what they percieve as the constraining attitudes of those who operate them. |
Bill Mueller wrote on Sun, 19 September 2004 10:40 |
It doesn't matter if you are trying to buy a PT HD system for you personal studio or you invested in a half a million dollar digital dinosaur. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 09:14 | ||
George, I have serious reservations about being baited by anonymous posters on your forum. You once took me to task when I responded to such bait, and even deleted my responding post. Please inform. |
Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 17:13 |
I hate to bring up the Emperor's new clothes but I really don't see any "new paradigms" other than self-serving hype sourced from Silicone Valley press releases. I just can't buy that a virtual "old paradigm" is any kind of REAL "new paradigm." We could all use a truly new paradigms! |
Bobro wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 11:26 | ||
There IS a "new paradigm", but it's not apartment studios. It's mobile recording with a laptop/rackmount/self-contained-harddisk system. Where I'm at there are many very old, Baroque to Middle Ages, halls, churches, some abandoned bunkers, etc. It hit me that crabwalking sideways up the gravel slope of low ceilings and egg-cartons is bullshit; all it takes is one strong guy or two easy guys taking it easy, and some politiking/partying with whoever has the keys, and a decent sound is there to be had. -Bobro |
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posted by malice: I outed myself long ago here, at Klaus's forum and in half a dozen place at the MARSH. My infos are updated and visible. |
George Massenburg wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 17:41 | ||||
Bobro, This is not at all a "new paradigm". My first gig was carrying around an Ampex PR-10 or 351 (yup, that's right, all my myself), two Atlas booms with extensions, and a couple of U-48's to record church choirs, school bands & orchestras & etc. The budget was often rolled into making the pressings (we had a pressing plant...ask about that sometime) Sorry, I don't think it's "better" or "newer" because it's far "easier". The most conservative thinking usually has "easier" leading to "lazy listening" In any case it's certainly not "new". George |
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posted by Bob Olhsson: I hate to bring up the Emperor's new clothes but I really don't see any "new paradigms" other than self-serving hype sourced from Silicone Valley press releases. |
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I just can't buy that a virtual "old paradigm" is any kind of REAL "new paradigm." We could all use a few truly new paradigms! |
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posted by Bobro: There IS a "new paradigm", but it's not apartment studios. It's mobile recording with a laptop/rackmount/self-contained-harddisk system. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 10:24 | ||
It's not that consoles will no longer be necessary; it's just that they no longer automatically need to be an integral part of the equation. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 12:24 | ||
It's both, and it's neither. [...] |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 13:24 |
It's both, and it's neither. It's the fact you can include those two scenarios, without being confined to either of them. |
Bobro wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 17:26 |
There IS a "new paradigm", but it's not ARTMENT studios. It's mobile recording with a laptop/rackmount/self-contained-harddisk system. Where I'm at there are MANY VERY OLD, BAROQUE TO MIDDLE AGES, HALLS, CHURCHES, SOME ABANDONED BUNKERS, ETC. It hit me that crabwalking sideways up the gravel slope of LOW CIELINGS AND EGG CARTONS is bullshit; all it takes is one strong guy or two easy guys taking it easy, and some politiking/partying with whoever has the keys, and a decent sound is there to be had. -Bobro |
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posted by loco: Curve, it seems to me that you are confined to that Digi double-oh-whine card looking for a way to justify its use or to make a sales pitch. You know you want an upgrade. |
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The good thing about a mixer is that you have all the processing right there: preamps, compressor, EQ, converters, some routing, monitoring, etc. |
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Working around just an audio card is not convenient when you have a lot of gear, musicians and options around that need to be activated right away. Expensive? Yes, but you have to weight all the power that comes with it. |
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Example: it woul be great to have the several units of that millenia STT-1 so you can either record everything through it or process it when mixing. It's very expensive. Takes a lot of space. It would be great to make them narrower and put them on a rack side by side. How about a summing bus for them? Instant monitoring... There you go, you have a Millenia Mixer now. |
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And some people go the other way and put Neve mixers apart into single rack units. It's next to impossible to make everyone happy. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21 |
I live just off 11th Street. I walk a few blocks north on 11th, make a left, walk one block, and it's RIGHT THERE. The SSL 9064, the ICON system, and all the vintage gear going back to the early 60's you could possibly drool over. Genelec monitors in Augsberger-designed rooms. EVERYTHING you are talking about, and more, IF I need it, which is about 10% of my work, if that. |
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posted by electrical: Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21
So you, you don't need a big console, as long as someone else has one for when you do need it. Someone needs a big console, just not you. Unless you need one, and then that guy has one. I guess I'm that guy, and I need one then. If that guy off 11th street ever starts thinking like you, that he doesn't need one, then you'll both be walking down 11th street looking for a guy like me who isn't part of the new paradigm. Who has what everybody wants but doesn't have because they're all part of the new paradigm and don't need one until they need it and then I've got one. My head hurts. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 03:15 | ||||
Hold on, Albini, it gets worse. I don't own a CAR, either. But I know a guy who does, and when I need a ride somewhere, I call him and he comes around and picks me up and drives me to where I need to go. I don't own a WALK-IN REFRIGERATOR, either. But...you guessed it! There's this guy I know, and he owns something called a market... And I could go ON AND ON AND ON. NOW, I hope your sitting down, because get this: LOTS of people live this way. Now, folks in the audio trade can live this way too. Amazing! It's ONLY 2004, and this early into human development, the AUDIO industry has got this WILD WACKY NEW THING! We are, like, dude, SO caught up with the rest of civilization now. Well... SOME of us are, anyway. |
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A sub-project recording studio is like that Harmony. You can do some cool stuff, but . . . |
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21 | ||
Are you talking about an SSL? No thanks, I'd rather use a 001. |
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I live just off 11th Street. I walk a few blocks north on 11th, make a left, walk one block, and it's RIGHT THERE. The SSL 9064, the ICON system, and all the vintage gear going back to the early 60's you could possibly drool over. Genelec monitors in Augsberger-designed rooms. EVERYTHING you are talking about, and more, IF I need it, which is about 10% of my work, if that. |
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There's always a solution, Carlos. If you ever find yourself "stuck" with a 001, just remember you can email your tracks or mixes or sessions out to a bigger studio. Capisce? New Paradigm, baby. And Remember, folks: It was Albini who introduced that term into this discussion, NOT The Curve. |
Eric Vincent wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 01:58 | ||
Bryan, That was a nice post. REALLY. Not being facetious. But it didn't really address what I've been hinting at.
I'm just not digging that analogy. It doesn't work for me. Bear with me here, Bryan: 1) A sub-project studio (like the one in my crib) is like a small camera. It is perfectly capable of "filming" a performance of an individual vocalist, guitarist, bassist, keyboardist, percussionist, etc., and faithfully capturing that performance. 2) A large commercial recording facility like the one a few blocks up 11th Street which I mentioned earlier, has a bigger, more elaborate camera. This camera is better suited to "filming" a live trap drumkit, live band, orchestra, string quartet, etc. 3) Then, Bobro has his mobile rig, which he can take out into the field, and record stuff that one can only capture in the field. I did this when I took a small standalone DAW out to my nephew's shack in his mom's backyard to record his drumming (very unique sound we got, not for every application, but I like uniqueness). That's the field camera. 4) My little brother Kurt is in Tokyo, and he's got this little tiny "camera" in his hotel room, that he uses to "film" a killer guitar solo, set to what all the other cameras have already recorded. And he can DO that, because I emailed him a rough mix to play to. So, I get all that "film" together in my crib, and start to edit it into a "movie." I create something akin to what the artist's vision is. But if I get to a certain point where I feel limited, I email the entire session to Big Studio, and we pick up from there. Hopefully, Bryan, you're following me here. I am not counting ANYBODY out of the process here; on the contrary: I want to INCLUDE everybody in the process. THAT's the "new paradigm," as I see it. Inclusiveness. We ALL have a role, and we work TOGETHER. |
Keef wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 13:46 |
George has said in the past, having recall on digital mixers for eq, and effects is a big benifit. |
Keef wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:46 |
My point was and still is, though it is great to have Neve, or SSL large console, if your track count is low, not only is it not needed, but you can get results that sound just as good on the other lower end units. Not only do we have decent lower end mixers, but we also have tons of plug ins, and they are getting pretty acceptable these days. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 10:29 |
But let's also acknowledge that the effects of the "advantages" of digital working methods have had a seemingly negative effect on our pool of musicians. In my eyes, this has not been a benefit, but rather, a detriment, and on a very large scale. |
electrical wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 13:55 |
The things I kept telling myself didn't matter, like the console, the monitors, the experience of the guy helping me, the exact right piece of equipment to solve a problem, clean power, good grounding, the listening environment and the care taken to assemble all that -- turns out they do matter. |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 12:29 |
[...] And we should be careful about proclaiming any given benefit or advantage as globally and uniformly true. Eric Sarafin |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 12:29 |
There are many of us that dislike how newer digital technologies are affecting music in general, let alone how it affects us personally. ...do you realize how many more average singers and average recordings we must endure because of these advantages? |
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title=Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 18:29 You choose your clients. Your working methods, your bedside manner, your choice in gear, your pricing, etc.. will attract the right clients for you. A band that requires heavy editing is going to seek out a producer that prefers digital methods, and believes in heavy editing. I have precluded myself from this sort of work just by HOW I work. We all preclude ourselves from different clients by how we choose to work.Eric Sarafin |
Sahib wrote |
One more important issue is always missed. The music education. I see the whole thing a bit like the two sides of the coin. One side is advancement of hardware and the other side is the availability of music education. |
Sahib wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 00:30 |
But it shouldn't. At the end of the day if a new equipment is smaller in size and better at functionality then why are we still getting mediocre results out of it? Sure, the sonic quality is just as good if not better but why is the end product still mediocre? |
Bob Olhsson wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 06:33 |
The singers using Autotune on stage are TV stars and not music stars. Before AutoTune, TV and movie stars often had session singers singing their parts. Our problem is that very few real music stars are making it these days. Why is that? |
Eric Sarafin wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 00:59 |
The end product is always mediocre because of the people involved. However, the sonic quality of today's digital technology is NOT just as good, and it's definitely not better! |
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In other words, I will have superior results recording a rock band on a 2" machine and mixing on an 8068, an analog console that was built nearly 30 years ago, than recording and mixing in Pro Tools. |
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[...] Every year I read and hear the same thing. "Yeah, digital sucks but it's getting closer." I've been hearing the "it's getting closer" bit for 15 years now. Every new release of Pro Tools is supposed to be the mark of sonic quality, and yet somehow they always seem to improve it. High sample rates have turned out to be a joke. And higher bit rates are almost useless because the consumer won't fall for the old format upgrade trick again. |
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If you want to blame mediocre records on people, I will be the first person to stand behind you. But please don't assume that the sonic quality of gear is better now than it was 30 years ago. In general, it's not. [...] |
Sahib wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 02:56 |
Bob, The answer to your question in my opinion is that now unfortunately, everything is served for the lowest common denominator. |
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I think it's a cop out for us to take the elitist stance that "the masses" can't possibly like anything that's good enough for our own "holier than thou" taste. |
George Massenburg wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 07:25 |
On the other hand, if the "gear" that you're refering to is professional recording kit in general you may be right. It's not getting any better, either. |
Sahib wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 00:30 |
I can only come to the conclusion that the problem is not the technology but is the people who use it. There are many examples of people who produce excellent music with the new technology but in my opinion not enough to challange the ones that were produced and being produced on the old. ... Worst of all we have an increasing generation of people whom are content with mp3. Cemal Ozturk |
electrical wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 16:56 |
I think, and I know George will agree, that the potential for good sound in a digital domain exists, and is sometimes achieved. For this reason, I think debates about the sound quality of the two paradigms (old school analog tape, outboard and desk v. new school computer, computer and another computer maybe) are not enlightening. |
electrical wrote on Thu, 23 September 2004 16:56 |
New school technologies and products become obsolete so quickly that no one will ever have the opportunity to optimize his technique to take advantage of any particular technology or product, as this takes longer than the "learning curve" to become competent |
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New school technologies are valuable precisely because they change all the time, to incorporate the features and capabilities required by a fluid and aggressively-reaching clientele. If they were to become static enough for their performance to be optimized and generate a pool of experience, they would lose their principle asset. Because of this rapid rate of change, there can be no archival format or storage, as the rest of the computer industry changes in a similar fashion, making old sessions irretrievable. |
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I run every session like it is the most important thing to ever happen, because for at least a few people in the room, it is. I want to give them a permanent master that will outlive them. |
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This is impossible in the new school paradigm, but it is inherent in the old school one. |