Post by: aivoryuk on October 20, 2007, 08:53:02 AM
Post by: gbacklin on October 20, 2007, 11:04:03 AM
Post by: Viitalahde on October 20, 2007, 11:06:57 AM
I'm tired of WUMP's, they never seem to go anywhere or get closed. Still waiting for the client's comments.
Post by: cass anawaty on October 20, 2007, 12:30:25 PM
| Viitalahde wrote on Sat, 20 October 2007 16:06 |
We haven't even finished the last one yet. I'm tired of WUMP's, they never seem to go anywhere or get closed. Still waiting for the client's comments. |
I have to agree. I think we were about 5 critiques short from the last one, and I was also waiting for client's comments.
It's a great idea, but only if those who want to play actually do.
Post by: aivoryuk on October 20, 2007, 01:39:00 PM
| Viitalahde wrote on Sat, 20 October 2007 16:06 |
We haven't even finished the last one yet. I'm tired of WUMP's, they never seem to go anywhere or get closed. Still waiting for the client's comments. |
oh yeah i do agree, its been a lil disapointing not having the clients comments.
but where exactly do ou want future WUMP'S to go???
Post by: Catalin Truta on October 20, 2007, 02:34:07 PM
I am in for a new one though it's a very busy period and a less than great internet connection for me in order to listen to all the subscriptions...
Post by: escape on October 20, 2007, 03:14:10 PM
Otherwise, there isn't much learning happening.
If it's only a contest, then it's kind of pointless to me.
It would be great to have one of the big-timers that hang out here to take 15 minutes and show us how they would have done it proper. It would be much more illustrative.
Don't get me wrong, I think in general we do a pretty decent job, but how are we going to know if it couldn't have been done better unless someone who's a real master at this gives it a shot.
I think wump needs to be fixed in many ways, most importantly we need a mentor.
This subjective judging of each other through uncoordinated monitoring environments doesn't help either.
It would be much more clear and to the point if we could just HEAR what a "real" pro could have done with a given mix, even if it's just a one minute sample. That way it might be easier to gauge everything because there will be somewhat of a definitive touchstone that hasn't been abstracted so much by our very own words.
People can spend 5 pages describing what something sounded like or what it should sound like, but if we could just press play it would be illuminated in 5 seconds, not a word need be spoken thereafter, except in the relaying of facts and actual comparisons..
Post by: masterhse on October 21, 2007, 02:19:03 PM
Post by: escape on October 21, 2007, 06:24:51 PM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 14:19 |
I don't know that it qualifies as a "WUMP" but I would find it interesting to have a mix with a specific issue, then see and hear different techniques for solving the problem rather than an all out master of a track. Kind of like a consortium of audio doctors, or "WASH" (Web-based Audio Surgical Hospital). |
I like that idea.
It focuses on one issue at a time. Easier to manage, much more refining. Our studies would be augmented in a more helpful way.
We need to break it down.
It's too easy to take things out of context when we're generalizing about such a high set of variables like we've been doing. But if we simplify and focus the strategy on one or two key elements, a more detailed analysis is possible without the pronounced likelihood of miscommunication and prevalent turbulence that so often attends our considerations.
I like this idea a lot.
Let's break it down..
Post by: masterhse on October 21, 2007, 07:21:17 PM
Maybe even Alan Alda will make an appearance for W*A*S*H.
Post by: escape on October 22, 2007, 12:40:13 AM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 21 October 2007 19:21 |
FWIW in about 2-3 weeks I'm going to have 20 (yes 20) different mixes of the same song as a midterm assignment from the students in my audio prod class. These along with the orignal mix and master that was released before this. Some of the tracks may be re-recorded from the release as I gave the students full control on how they wanted to produce it as well. If interested, it may be a good candidate for this experiment. Maybe even Alan Alda will make an appearance for W*A*S*H. |
LMAO!
I'm all for it.
Post by: present on October 22, 2007, 01:54:12 AM
Count me in!
Post by: KAyo on October 23, 2007, 12:46:57 PM
What about restoration !!
Restore + Master :
With so many new plugs for restoration now out there.. It could, sort off.. end up being like a test ..
We may end up hearing some great results!
Ciao'
KAyo
Post by: cass anawaty on October 23, 2007, 03:32:47 PM
I could probably clear a few minutes (have to check first) for the WUMP if folks were interested, but I can tell you up front--if you don't have a restoration suite of some sort, you don't want to get into this one.
I just restored--the budget didn't allow a re-master--but there was definitely room for some work.
Let me know,
Cass
Post by: aivoryuk on October 23, 2007, 03:47:33 PM
| Cass Anawaty wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 20:32 |
I'm not going to play, |
thats a shame Cass, I felt i learnt a lot from you on the last one.
Nothings been decided as yet although I don't mind what we do. I enjoy all the Wumps
Post by: cass anawaty on October 23, 2007, 05:15:50 PM
| aivoryuk wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 20:47 | ||
thats a shame Cass, I felt i learnt a lot from you on the last one. Nothings been decided as yet although I don't mind what we do. I enjoy all the Wumps |
Thanks for that and likewise. Just don't have time to submit this round--but I'll help where I can.
Post by: MT Groove on October 24, 2007, 07:17:31 PM
Post by: KAyo on October 25, 2007, 10:18:40 AM
| Cass Anawaty wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 14:32 |
I just finished a restoration on a classical project that was a transfer from vinyl, and in mono. Talk about a challenge. Cass |
Perfect! That's exactly what we want... A challenge! I should imagine..
Ciao'
KAyo
Post by: Luke Fellingham on October 25, 2007, 11:04:05 AM
Post by: KAyo on October 28, 2007, 01:58:30 AM
Who's got that track.. that needs a complete makeover.
Let's here it..
And let the overhaulin begin.
KAyo
Post by: cass anawaty on October 28, 2007, 12:20:20 PM
Remember--you asked for it!
Cass
Post by: masterhse on October 28, 2007, 12:59:41 PM
WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago.
Post by: aivoryuk on October 28, 2007, 01:31:56 PM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 16:59 |
Anyone still up for working with any of the mixes from my class? I told the students about this and they seemed excited about it. If not, maybe another time ... WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago. |
well i would be Tom, I remember WIMP very well was the first one I ever participated and to have Bob Katz comment on my master was a thrill.
So who wants to do what then. It seems we have poss 2 on the go??
Post by: escape on October 28, 2007, 09:04:44 PM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 12:59 |
Anyone still up for working with any of the mixes from my class? I told the students about this and they seemed excited about it. If not, maybe another time ... WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago. |
You have my interest.
Post by: ATOR on October 29, 2007, 06:11:48 AM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 17:59 |
Anyone still up for working with any of the mixes from my class? I told the students about this and they seemed excited about it. If not, maybe another time ... WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago. |
I'm up for that.
Post by: Ed Littman on October 29, 2007, 09:35:02 AM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 12:59 |
Anyone still up for working with any of the mixes from my class? I told the students about this and they seemed excited about it. If not, maybe another time ... WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago. |
sounds good. out of all the class mixes how are you going to decide the one?
Ed
Post by: masterhse on October 29, 2007, 12:05:09 PM
| Ed Littman wrote on Mon, 29 October 2007 09:35 |
sounds good. out of all the class mixes how are you going to decide the one? Ed |
I figured that I would post MP3 of all of them from a page on an external site (to avoid clutter here) and let everyone choose? Or am I asking for too much? Let me know.
Also the restoration project sounded cool, I didn't mean to squash that idea. Given that class will be over in mid December it would be nice if they got some feedback before then from the good folks here.
Post by: masterhse on October 29, 2007, 12:08:40 PM
| aivoryuk wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 13:31 |
well i would be Tom, I remember WIMP very well was the first one I ever participated and to have Bob Katz comment on my master was a thrill. |
I remember your master Alex. It was actually my favorite for overall EQ and frequency balance.
Post by: aivoryuk on October 29, 2007, 01:56:48 PM
| masterhse wrote on Mon, 29 October 2007 16:08 | ||
I remember your master Alex. It was actually my favorite for overall EQ and frequency balance. |
Thanks Tom coming from yourself that means a lot.
Regarding the Mix we use it may be easier just for yourself to pick one for us to do, (i don't remember there being a choice for WIMP).
Are the mixes of the same tracks or completely different tracks.
Post by: cass anawaty on October 29, 2007, 02:57:12 PM
| masterhse wrote on Mon, 29 October 2007 16:05 | ||
Also the restoration project sounded cool, I didn't mean to squash that idea. Given that class will be over in mid December it would be nice if they got some feedback before then from the good folks here. |
No problem, here. I just happened to have a restoration handy. Problem is that it will exlude anyone without a serious restoration bundle, so for all's sake it's probably better to go w/ your suggestion this round.
I am here to help
Post by: OTR-jkl on October 29, 2007, 03:21:17 PM
I agree with whoever said earlier that we need some feedback from one the seasoned pros out there. Input from someone in a higher echelon would be a huge help to me...
Post by: masterhse on October 29, 2007, 04:20:38 PM
Thoughts?
Post by: escape on October 30, 2007, 08:27:13 AM
| masterhse wrote on Mon, 29 October 2007 16:20 |
I think the objective of WASH is to find a problem area for us to work on and discuss, not necessarily just master a track again. The client isn't realy technical enough to do this. In other words, if we all agreed that a particular mix sounds sibilant, narrow, unbalanced in some way, or some other particular problem, that would be the one to go for? Thoughts? |
This is exactly how I envisioned it when you first brought it up, so I'm with it all the way.
Focus on a specific problem in a mix, and swap techniques on dealing with the issue. Then we can hear what worked best for the situation. At the same time, we're each advancing our arsenal for the next occasion that we encounter something similar in our own practice. Better sounding masters all around.
We might even learn something. If nothing else, it feels like a step in the right direction. None of us is as smart as all of us.
We must become the new breed that freely shares information. The days of guarded trade "secrets" are quickly coming to their inevitable end.
The previous incarnations of WUMP had us divided and lacking direction. So, again, I'm all for this. It's a definite progression.
Post by: Patrik T on October 30, 2007, 03:35:31 PM
| escape wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 13:27 |
The days of guarded trade "secrets" are quickly coming to their inevitable end. |
It's more a matter of some silly old myth implying there are some exclusive secrets around.
How secret is is to HEAR?
Patrik
Post by: cass anawaty on October 30, 2007, 03:59:39 PM
| Patrik T wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 19:35 | ||
It's more a matter of some silly old myth implying there are some exclusive secrets around. How secret is is to HEAR? Patrik |
Yes, but what helps my hearing is a pouch of 11 herbs and spices that are buried under the porch of my studio.
Which herbs and spices is the key--and the secret!
Post by: masterhse on October 30, 2007, 05:21:54 PM
Post by: escape on October 30, 2007, 05:42:11 PM
| Patrik T wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 15:35 |
It's more a matter of some silly old myth implying there are some exclusive secrets around. How secret is is to HEAR? Patrik |
Exactly what I mean.
I indicated my sarcasm with the "'s. Hope that clears it up for you.
Post by: Patrik T on October 30, 2007, 06:28:40 PM
| escape wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 22:42 |
I indicated my sarcasm with the "'s. Hope that clears it up for you. |
Naturally it does! And it did! Ol' chap!
"Spectra-foo".
Best Regards
Patrik
Post by: Phillip Graham on October 30, 2007, 07:06:32 PM
| masterhse wrote on Sun, 28 October 2007 12:59 |
Anyone still up for working with any of the mixes from my class? I told the students about this and they seemed excited about it. If not, maybe another time ... WIMP came out of one of those mixes a few years ago. |
I have not tried, or even listened to, a WUMP since TotalSonic's string piece.
I would be interested in doing one from the student mixes, but I would not want to have to sort through 20. Perhaps we would pick out of the best of five mixes?
Post by: masterhse on October 30, 2007, 07:38:51 PM
| Phillip Graham wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 19:06 |
I would be interested in doing one from the student mixes, but I would not want to have to sort through 20. Perhaps we would pick out of the best of five mixes? |
Ok, but rather than best 5 how about the five with the most common problems encountered in mastering mixes from less experienced engineers?
In my opinion that would include things like lack of depth or width (or too much), unbalanced frequencies overall, instruments or vocals that are unbalanced in relation to each other either in volume or relative EQ, distortion, noise, overcompression, phase problems, sibilance/plosives, digititus (in cheaper recordings) and to use a crayon or not. Other issues that anyone would like to add?
Post by: escape on October 30, 2007, 11:20:24 PM
| masterhse wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 19:38 |
In my opinion that would include things like lack of depth or width (or too much), unbalanced frequencies overall, instruments or vocals that are unbalanced in relation to each other either in volume or relative EQ, distortion, noise, overcompression, phase problems, sibilance/plosives, digititus (in cheaper recordings) and to use a crayon or not. Other issues that anyone would like to add? |
I can't think of anything right away that isn't at least closely related to what you've already categorized. Well done.
The major thing for me right now is sibilance.
Hyper-compression comes in a close second.
From my experience, digititus and distortion often stem from hyper-compression (done with plugins, sometimes EQ plugs too), or from equipment and wiring/routing. As a category they come in third for me.
Overall, I agree with the suggested method of picking mixes that each have a well-defined problem for us to focus on. It's exactly what I had in mind when I said we need to break the process down.
Post by: KAyo on October 31, 2007, 06:39:18 AM
Or ... are we still awaiting a decision?! on what is to be used....
_ _ _
KAyo
Post by: aivoryuk on October 31, 2007, 09:11:19 AM
| Cass Anawaty wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 19:59 |
Yes, but what helps my hearing is a pouch of 11 herbs and spices that are buried under the porch of my studio. Which herbs and spices is the key--and the secret! |
Sounds like a advert for KFC
but seriously I don't mind what kind of mix we do, over sibilant or whatever.
Post by: gbacklin on October 31, 2007, 02:39:20 PM
| aivoryuk wrote on Wed, 31 October 2007 08:11 |
...but seriously I don't mind what kind of mix we do, over sibilant or whatever. |
nor do I.
Gene
Post by: djwaudio on October 31, 2007, 07:08:27 PM
Post by: Phillip Graham on November 01, 2007, 10:08:48 AM
| masterhse wrote on Tue, 30 October 2007 19:38 | ||
Ok, but rather than best 5 how about the five with the most common problems encountered in mastering mixes from less experienced engineers? |
Sorry Tom,
This is exactly what I meant to convey. Not the "best" 5 mixes, but rather what you thought were the most appropriate five mixes, be it for a specific problem, etc.
| Quote: |
In my opinion that would include things like lack of depth or width (or too much), unbalanced frequencies overall, instruments or vocals that are unbalanced in relation to each other either in volume or relative EQ, distortion, noise, overcompression, phase problems, sibilance/plosives, digititus (in cheaper recordings) and to use a crayon or not. Other issues that anyone would like to add? |
That sounds like a pretty good list. Hopefully you can find a good "theme" of 4-6 mixes, and then we can pick one from that theme to work on.
Post by: masterhse on November 02, 2007, 08:44:07 PM
I received the mixes this week and will be sorting through them to find 5 good candidates assuming there is enough interest. In the meantime I've posted two versions of the song extracted from the CD release (one mp3 and the other 44/16 zipped).
Please see: http://www.masteringhouse.com/WASH/
Hopefully this gives everyone a good idea of what the client wants in the final master. Let me know your thoughts and if you would like me to continue.
All the best!
Tom
Post by: masterhse on November 02, 2007, 11:35:33 PM
They thought the diffusion panels looked cool.
- Tom (Rock and Roll outlaw)
Post by: ATOR on November 03, 2007, 04:44:29 AM
| masterhse wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 04:35 |
Interesting anecdote. About 10 minutes after posting the above a silent alarm went off at the bank located next to my studio. I was handcuffed and held at gunpoint under suspicion of attempting to rob the bank. After providing proof that I was indeed the legitimate proprietor of the studio and had no knowledge about the alarm (as well as having no interest in gaining access to the bank) I was let go and gave the police a tour of the studio facilities. They thought the diffusion panels looked cool. - Tom (Rock and Roll outlaw) |
Good thinking to use diffusor panels to cover up the hole in the wall you drilled to their safe
Are the files you posted above mastered versions? If so could you please remove them. This could easily turn the wump into a copying game.
Tom I leave it up to you to pick the most challenging mix.
Post by: masterhse on November 03, 2007, 11:13:12 AM
| ATOR wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 04:44 |
Good thinking to use diffusor panels to cover up the hole in the wall you drilled to their safe |
{shhhh}
| ATOR wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 04:44 |
Are the files you posted above mastered versions? If so could you please remove them. This could easily turn the wump into a copying game. |
Yes they are the mastered versions. The reason I posted them other than for folks to hear the song was because someone asked for a reference. Given the client most likely won't be able to give too much in the way of feedback here, I thought that this would serve as a "sonic goal" of sorts. The students had access to this track when mixing as well, but were told that they didn't need to copy what was there and could remix to their liking.
For a WUMP I can understand why a final master would be detrimental. For WASH I'm not sure it matters. The objective is to find techniques for correcting a problem. I would imagine that the submissions may not even be complete and final masters in themselves, but examples of a particular technique for solving a problem and only part of the entire solution for the mix?
Anyone else feel that it's not a good idea to post the master before the submissions? If so, I'll put them safely away in the bank's safe.
Post by: KAyo on November 03, 2007, 12:08:37 PM
Listened, and I think, it's a nice job -overall! Could be the go..
Or do we have some clips lying around in need of some serious restoration buisness...
In any case.. me keen!!
Ciao,
KAyo
Post by: ATOR on November 03, 2007, 01:54:34 PM
| Tom |
the objective of WASH is to find a problem area for us to work on and discuss, not necessarily just master a track again. |
If it's sibilant we de-ess, if it's narrow we increase the width, if the freq balance is uneven we eq, if the dynamics need work we compress. What's there to discuss?
Good mastering is a whole of little adjustments. For me the technical approach is uninteresting. I haven't read the tech notes since the original wimp. For me we could drop the exchange of techniques altogether. The settings don't mean anything unless you have the exact same tools. And even then, what good are settings if you can't hear how to make it sound like that yourself.
What I like about the wump is hearing different versions of the sonic truth. This helps me to question and find my own truth and makes me work harder to achieve it.
So I'd like us to 'just master' the track, the most challenging mix Tom has and make it sound as good as we can.
Sorry if I come off a little straightforward, I've just been watching The Sopranos
Post by: masterhse on November 03, 2007, 03:52:12 PM
I'm convinced, let's go with a final complete master rather than stages ...
Post by: ATOR on November 03, 2007, 04:36:02 PM
| masterhse wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 20:52 |
M'kay, though if it's sibilant do you always de-ess? What about feeding back a bandwidth limited version of the track with reverse polarity to reduce high end? I'd like to hear some out of the box solutions people are doing. Though I agree it can get tedious listening to each iteration. I'm convinced, let's go with a final complete master rather than stages ... |
I just don't think you can judge methods and tools by how good or bad somebody else is using them. I do think wumps show you how good your tools and methods work for you and more important how good you work your tools.
Post by: aivoryuk on November 04, 2007, 12:20:08 PM
so when we going with this??
Post by: masterhse on November 04, 2007, 01:35:03 PM
| aivoryuk wrote on Sun, 04 November 2007 12:20 |
Sounds like a great track Tom so when we going with this?? |
I need a few days to sort through them all (as well as doing regular work). I am hoping to have the "chosen ones" ready mid-week.
Thanks,
T