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[Andy Simpson]

If we're talking about a bass mic & DI, then the timing difference will be extremely minimal from the mic to the DI, especially relative to the wavelengths involved.

The combing from such a sum would have no practical effect on the low frequencies, but rather would potentially cause peaks/troughs on the higher frequencies.....you can work it out according to wavelength and the distance between the speaker and the mic.....

If we're talking about a mic up against the grill of the cab, that's pretty short distance......might comb significantly at >2k....but we're talking about bass here, right?

Perhaps if the mic was some feet away from the cab you could have serious problems with the lows......but....well.....

Andy

[lord]

Remember that you get dramatic effects at just 1/4 wavelength. A couple inches of delay causes serious effects in the midrange.

No, you do not have full on cancellation at 40 Hz. But the change in tone even with the cab close mic'ed is plainly audible, and surely you have experienced this.

[Andy Simpson]

lord wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:18

Remember that you get dramatic effects at just 1/4 wavelength. A couple inches of delay causes serious effects in the midrange. No, you do not have full on cancellation at 40 Hz. But the change in tone even with the cab close mic'ed is plainly audible, and surely you have experienced this.

Wavelength at 40hz = 8.6 metres.
Wavelength at 300hz = 1.1 metres.
Wavelength at 1k = 0.3 metres.

Yeah, I agree about the mid-range and that the change in tone is fully audible, but we're talking about big/serious LF problems.....ie. will the bass 'disappear'?

No it won't. It'll probably just sound a bit 'deeper' (think parallel pickups on a stingray).

I'd worry about stereo drum overheads in mono first......

Andy

[John Ivan]

lord wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 12:18

Remember that you get dramatic effects at just 1/4 wavelength. A couple inches of delay causes serious effects in the midrange. No, you do not have full on cancellation at 40 Hz. But the change in tone even with the cab close mic'ed is plainly audible, and surely you have experienced this.

Yes indeed. I have gone DI+ very close Mic and, summed to mono, the tone changes quite a lot. If the rest of the mix collapses fine, and the bass just "changes" to a tone I can live with, It's all good.

This is something to look out for tho, to be sure. Great topic.

[thephatboi]

Another thing I have done is do a "phantom" double of the bass track sometimes with a mini moog or some synth, preferably analog, mix it almost subliminally and perhaps pan it off from the real bass a bit, It adds depth and since it is not the exact same instrument, I think phase cancelletion is less of an issue (am I right on this guys?) With regards to doubled bass tracks of the same instrument, I get songs to mix all the time where the band recorded two bass tracks, the classice DI and amp usually, I am not afraid of them: I always look very carefully at the waveforms up close and do a little nudging WHILE LISTENING TO THE EFFECT, when it looks lined up AND sounds the fattest, that is where I leave it, Then I may pan the two 10L and 10R, and decide if they should be equal vol. or not, If not, then I make sure the mix is not getting lopsided. I think they usually sound better slightly panned then right on top of each other. Hope this helps, regards, Sean


ps. I was a session bass player  before becoming an egineer; I really like a big, tight bottom, on my mixes and....

[alanfc]

.

[alanfc]

thephatboi wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 13:19

Another thing I have done is do a "phantom" double of the bass track sometimes with a mini moog or some synth, preferably analog, mix it almost subliminally and perhaps pan it off from the real bass a bit, It adds depth and since it is not the exact same instrument, .....................

this is funny you mention this because on our last CD, I went in with downtuned guitar and beefed up some choruses where the bass player was wheedling up in the upper registers and wasn't having enough of a splash for me on the beat. Single notes using a mildly overdriven strat bridge PU sound, an octave lower than what the bass player was doing, panned a little left.
Not obvious it was there, but when it wasn't...very obvious.

[thephatboi]

That'll work, I've done that with a baritone guitar with a bridge humbucker, distorted thru a marshall, and super compressed, really fattens up and like you say you don't really notice it until you mute it... peace

[j.hall]

andy_simpson wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 14:29

Wavelength at 40hz = 8.6 metres. Wavelength at 300hz = 1.1 metres. Wavelength at 1k = 0.3 metres. Yeah, I agree about the mid-range and that the change in tone is fully audible, but we're talking about big/serious LF problems.....ie. will the bass 'disappear'? No it won't. It'll probably just sound a bit 'deeper'

i don't recall anyone claiming that summing of a mic and DI would result in complete cancellation.  secondly, just because the waveforms are that long doesn't mean you won't have problems.

[floodstage]

Sort of related,
I'm currently doing a CD for a punk band with 2 bass players.  They don't use the same sounds and don't really lock up with each other
I'm panning the basses to about 10 and 2 on the rough mixes to make a little room and like the way it makes room in the stereo mix, but  I have noticed some phase/cancellation issues in the mono sum (thanks to this thread, I've been paying more attention there than usual)

Wish I had one of those Little Labs phase alignment tools!

[j.hall]

floodstage wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 12:51

Wish I had one of those Little Labs phase alignment tools!

unless Johnathan issues an automatable plug-in version of that, the  box won't help you at all.

i suggest listening to some Ned's Automic Dust Bin, Dianogah, and Girls against Boys to get some good examples of mixing with two bass players.

in the ever sexy voice of Scott McCloud (girls against boys, "kill the sex player")

"Kill the bass player, Kill both bass players.  Kill the three times bass expansion unit"

words to live by i'm affraid...........

[floodstage]

True (on the automated comment)

On a couple songs, it sounds like I'm running a chorus on the basses .  The band says they like the chorus-like sound.  It drives me totally nutso.

[j.hall]

floodstage wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 13:00

True (on the automated comment) On a couple songs, it sounds like I'm running a chorus on the basses .  The band says they like the chorus-like sound.  It drives me totally nutso.

i take it they play the same exact thing?

if so..........have fun with that!!!!!  i don't envy you a bit.