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Author Topic: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar  (Read 7875 times)

bloodstone

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2005, 04:32:52 pm »

Scott Volthause wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 20:33

bloodstone wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:01



Is it a definite that bass hard panned left and right will be inaudible on a mono system, or just potentially possible?   Is that why old releases on vinyl had mono and stereo versions?


It's not definite unless the two bass signals have out of phase content, and only then will the out of phase content cancel.

Vinyl is a whole 'nother ball of wax (pun intended? i dunno). Out of phase bass content was a serous no-no with vinyl, but more from a manufacturing angle. The lathe head used to cut the master would do funky things (like jump out of the groove) when there was out of phase content in the lower freqs.


So what about all those stereo Beatles albums with the bass hard-panned to one side or the other?  Does that translate to mono (radio)?
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NelsonL

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2005, 05:33:45 pm »

OK, I'll stick my neck out a tad.

I've heard the Beatles on FM before where elements were clearly missing-- I wish I could remember the song specifically and what was different.

If you sum the mix to mono, and there is no bass at all on the other side of the mix (nothing to be out of phase,) then the bass should stay intact.

If one channel goes out for some reason, then obviously all elements unique to that channel are lost. This might well be a lesser concern.

I think (and I could be wrong) that when FM collapses to mono, the channels are summed rather than just, lopped off on one side.

I'm not entirely sure the mechanism of this phenomenon, I believe it relates to the way the receiver handles weaker FM signals.

Anyone?

Pony up science dudes!
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alanfc

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2005, 05:45:45 pm »


this is fantastic Shocked
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j.hall

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2005, 06:19:41 pm »

ok..........

let's dive in.

bloodstone, you won't have problems unless you have out of phase information.  phase affects low end tremendously as the wave forms are much longer and a slight shift in phase will affect certain notes and not others.  the degree of the shift is what is important.

when mic'ing a bass and and taking the DI the DI signal will arrive sooner to the multi-track then the mic.  see the mic has to pick up the acoustical sound through the amp circuit into the speaker then to the mic, through the cable to the pre-amp and then to the multi-track.  it just takes longer to follow that path then the DI

this is when phase is an issue.  if you hard pan it with out any timing correction you will have some phase cancelations when summed to mono.  this is basic engineering so i won't beat it to death.

radio......what happens here is that when your stereo hits weak spots in the transmission it will automatically switch to mono.  this is a summing and not a ditching of the left channel.  it sums the feed and pumps it out.  this is when good mixers rise above the rest.  there work won't sound any "different" in mono...just less full...

vinyl records have trouble with stereo bass do to physical limitations of the medium.  i believe most lathes some the low frequency (like below 150) to mono and cut it in that way.  i'm not a vinyl expert nor do i care to discuss it past how much i enjoy listening to my records.

old beatles recordings:

the beatles recording at EMI studios, which happened to be fitted with an EMI console (go figure).  the EMI consoles had stereo channels only with hard panning.  so really, the engineers had no choice.  bass went to one channel and drums went to another.  it was there best option.  it split the rhythm section.  drums left, bass right.  that's why the lead vocal is left and the slap is right.

in this situation, summing to mono will merely bring all elements front and center.  what Liam is talking about is some other issues on more adventerous beatles' recording where things really are out of phase.  i've heard some of those as well.

so, when i say i won't adopt that practice, i hope i've clearly stated why.  

little labs makes a brilliant piece of gear called that has variable pahse control to re-align a DI with a mic and eleminate this problem.  i suggest you look into picking one up.  then again, if things are working for you.....don't change a thing.
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rollmottle

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2005, 09:41:42 pm »

j.hall wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:19



old beatles recordings:

the beatles recording at EMI studios, which happened to be fitted with an EMI console (go figure).  the EMI consoles had stereo channels only with hard panning.  so really, the engineers had no choice.  bass went to one channel and drums went to another.  it was there best option.  it split the rhythm section.  drums left, bass right.  that's why the lead vocal is left and the slap is right.

in this situation, summing to mono will merely bring all elements front and center.  what Liam is talking about is some other issues on more adventerous beatles' recording where things really are out of phase.  i've heard some of those as well.

so, when i say i won't adopt that practice, i hope i've clearly stated why.  

little labs makes a brilliant piece of gear called that has variable pahse control to re-align a DI with a mic and eleminate this problem.  i suggest you look into picking one up.  then again, if things are working for you.....don't change a thing.


they're talking about this very thing over in GM's forum.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/7506/9433/?SQ=9 3c80961a6e78f48264e45feb6ae3b65  Cool
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bloodstone

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2005, 10:42:54 am »

So if I doubled the DI (copy & paste) or doubled the miced amp and hard-panned, there would be no phase issue?
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NelsonL

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2005, 12:36:20 pm »

The potential phase problem is between the DI and Amp tracks. When combined they may exhibit comb filtering which would sound bad.

If you have them hard panned then you're not combining the signals, so the phase problem may not be in evidence until you hear the mix in mono at which point the signals are combined-- your bass might lose a lot of low end for instance.

If you want to avoid this (or at least confront it) you can just put both the DI and the Mic'd amp in the center-- if you have problems it will be evident in the sound. You can reverse polarity on one of the tracks on the console or in the box and this may help, or it may exaggerate the effect. Some people nudge the tracks around too since arrival time is part of the equation. Also, there's the IPB which is a great phase alignment tool and also an excellent DI in my experience.

When you talk about copying the track and hard panning it you're essentially just panning the track to the center in a round about way.

And, no-- a dupe of the same take shouldn't have any phase issues with itself no matter how you pan it. You can mess that up though if you add a plugin with appreciable latency to one side and not the other-- thus changing the arrival time of one side.

Here's an article on the subject from our kind hosts:

   http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/studyjump.php?pdf=polar ity_and_phase
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floodstage

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2005, 03:02:42 pm »

bloodstone wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 09:42

So if I doubled the DI (copy & paste) or doubled the miced amp and hard-panned, there would be no phase issue?


As Rattleyour said, no problem.

On my digital board, I often pan a track hard one way and send through the effects send to another track and hard pan the other way.  This (on my board) adds a very small delay and can cause phase problems.

But copy / paste to same EXACT starting spot, shouldn't be a problem.  (Unless you do something to the copied track that causes a change in phase)
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scott volthause

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2005, 03:16:33 pm »

floodstage wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:02


But copy / paste to same EXACT starting spot, shouldn't be a problem.



Well, there is a slight problem, in that it's a waste of time, and kind of pointless. You end up with a centered bass track (as has been said already)

The question is why do you feel like you need to have stereo bass? I would imagine it's because it's not cutting through as you would like, therefore one has to consider the possibility that you've got something else in the bass guitar freq range that's eating up all of it's real estate sonically, or you're having trouble balancing the kick and bass, one is always louder and walking on the other?
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alanfc

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2005, 05:16:54 pm »

Scott Volthause wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 12:16

floodstage wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:02


But copy / paste to same EXACT starting spot, shouldn't be a problem.



Well, there is a slight problem, in that it's a waste of time, and kind of pointless. You end up with a centered bass track (as has been said already)

The question is why do you feel like you need to have stereo bass? I would imagine it's because it's not cutting through as you would like, therefore one has to consider the possibility that you've got something else in the bass guitar freq range that's eating up all of it's real estate sonically, or you're having trouble balancing the kick and bass, one is always louder and walking on the other?


Yes, well stereo is not necessarily the goal.
But I keep hearing it that way in other band's mixes...
as for our stuff, some songs I want it warm and omnipresent, and on some songs I want it Chris Squire ! (def.not stereo to my ears).  
So its really that big/wide/warm type sound that stumps me. To my ears it just sounds stereo.

thanks
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bloodstone

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2005, 08:53:08 pm »

I would say yes, I have trouble getting the bass guitar to cut through when it and the kick are centered.  I try subtractive low eq on the bass sometimes to give it more of its low mid presence, and let the kick occupy somewhere around 60hz.  On most of my tracks the bass warmth tends to be around 80-100hz, and the percussive presence somewhere around 400hz.  

I appreciate the comments but I have to say that despite the fact that apparently scientifically it's not supposed to be a good idea, I think my work sounds better when I use my hard-panned DI & miced amp combo.  At least through car stereos and home stereos.  

I'll definitely have to pay more attention to the mono thing and check for possible problems that may diminish the work in radioland or on one speaker boom boxes et al..

Thanks for the input.  You've raised issues I hadn't considered.    
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j.hall

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2005, 04:19:23 pm »

bloodstone wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 19:53


I appreciate the comments but I have to say that despite the fact that apparently scientifically it's not supposed to be a good idea, I think my work sounds better when I use my hard-panned DI & miced amp combo.  At least through car stereos and home stereos.  
 


i don't think i've ever said what you are doing is "wrong", i just won't follow suit.

and hey, depending on the amp and mic chain (and DI) you might have very little problems to begin with.

just check some mixes in mono, and see if you can live with the result.

personally, i don't like when my evil twin DI is summed with a mic.  it just doesn't work.  
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John Ivan

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2005, 04:55:50 pm »

I just thought I would ad that, I know old Classical music engineer's who never have a mono thought. :-} They say,, FTMS {fuck the mono sum} but that's another story.

Ivan.........
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Fibes

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2005, 10:55:27 pm »

Certain things are fine to say FTMS to and others like bass IMO are damn important to make sure it sums.


I don't do a lot of panning with bass but currently I'm mixing a three piece that uses a fuzz on the bass for impact and they lke a pretty "pixieseque" bass tone so i've set things up as follows.

Since it's a three piece i'm kinda soundstaging the band with the rtm guitar main mic panned slightly to the right with the second mic hard left. This leaves a little room on the left side for the treated DI input from the bass. To get some of the tack and clarity i've panned the treated DI to the left and high passed it grinding a little amp sim to make it speak. When the fuzz gets kicked in during the chorus' it suddenly fills out the left side completely and now i have one huge ass and clear mix on my hands. This shit wasn't working symetrically at all.
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John Ivan

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Re: So I think I'm hearing stereo Bass guitar
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2005, 12:11:06 am »

Yeah, rock trio's can be hard to get working from a mix stand point. Sounds like a cool bass sound. Love to hear it.

Ivan...........
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