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Author Topic: C1 C2  (Read 1704 times)

William Boyle AKA Elfy

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C1 C2
« on: October 15, 2005, 02:49:45 am »

Hi guys can anyone give me some info on the tollerance of C1 C2 and any other
errors or tests that might affect duplication.

I just burnt a cd and tested it with nero.
no C1 errors but quite a few C2.  Will this mean a rejection at the plant.

Cheers
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2005, 03:49:08 am »

William Boyle AKA Elfy wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 01:49

I just burnt a cd and tested it with nero. no C1 errors but quite a few C2.  Will this mean a rejection at the plant.


that's really bizarre Elfy, although I haven't actually used Nero.

generally you'll see a few hundred to a few thousand C1 errors, but NO C2 errors.

C1 errors, up to 220/sec are correctable via Reed-Solomon error correction, and a single C2 will cause a rejection, at least that's my basic understanding.

are you sure the test was run properly ?

IIRC most of us use Plextools or Clover to test for errors.

These and many other answers can be found in "Principles of Digital Audio" by Ken Pohlmann...
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William Boyle AKA Elfy

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2005, 04:59:40 am »

Heres the results.
Im confused as hell now, maybe this this has c1 and c2 mixed up.

General Information
Drive: PIONEER DVD-RW  DVR-107D
Firmware: 1.13
Disc: Audio CD (Mitsui)
Selected speed: Maximum
C1 errors
Maximum: 0
Average: 0.00
Total: 0
C2 errors
Maximum: 28
Average: 0.09
Total: 223
Jitter: n/a
Scanning statistics
Number of samples: 2364
Average scanning interval: 1.00 sec
Glitches removed: 0

BTW this was for 1 song
Cheers
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bobkatz

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2005, 05:10:44 am »

William Boyle AKA Elfy wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 02:49

Hi guys can anyone give me some info on the tollerance of C1 C2 and any other
errors or tests that might affect duplication.

I just burnt a cd and tested it with nero.
no C1 errors but quite a few C2.  Will this mean a rejection at the plant.

Cheers


I didn't think that Nero has the capability of measuring the internal error rate of a reader. This requires actual inquiries of the burner's firmware and only works with specific burners. I never figured out exactly what kind of errors Nero is reporting, but they never seemed to correlate with the real BLER, C2 and CU reports from Plextools.

BK
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William Boyle AKA Elfy

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2005, 05:31:45 am »

Thanks Bob and Jerry makes sense to me.
Is Plextool goin to be able to perform this task for my drive?
Thanks
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bobkatz

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2005, 05:58:06 am »

William Boyle AKA Elfy wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 05:31

Thanks Bob and Jerry makes sense to me.
Is Plextool goin to be able to perform this task for my drive?
Thanks



Only if it's a Plextor "premium" drive. They're very reasonably priced.
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
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Ronny

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2005, 01:40:58 pm »

bobkatz wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 05:10

William Boyle AKA Elfy wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 02:49

Hi guys can anyone give me some info on the tollerance of C1 C2 and any other
errors or tests that might affect duplication.

I just burnt a cd and tested it with nero.
no C1 errors but quite a few C2.  Will this mean a rejection at the plant.

Cheers


I didn't think that Nero has the capability of measuring the internal error rate of a reader. This requires actual inquiries of the burner's firmware and only works with specific burners. I never figured out exactly what kind of errors Nero is reporting, but they never seemed to correlate with the real BLER, C2 and CU reports from Plextools.

BK



IIRC, Nero adds the BLER checking with an upgrade. I think it was you that told me about CD Speed about 5 years ago Bob and would like to rethank you for it. I used it for about 3 years until I bought a Premium. It was no clover but a few thousand bucks cheaper. What it does is a surface scan, a data scan and it has an excellent DAE QC that gives extraction in percentage, so if you get 100% DAE, than it means that the rep plant can extract all of the audio successfully. I never had any problems with master cd-r's being rejected when using Nero's QC testing. It also tests access times, randomly and contiguously.

William, all cd's have C1's, even the high end burners can't burn disks without some C1's. I didn't think that it was possible to have more C2's than C1's as it's the second stage of error correction and certainly have never seen any cd-r's not exhibit some C1's. Perhaps there is a malfunction somewhere with your test.
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masterhse

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 12:16:22 am »

Interesting download:

http://www.cdspeed2000.com/

Haven't compared it against Plextools yet. What did you find Ronny?
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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

Ronny

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2005, 03:45:49 am »

masterhse wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 00:16

Interesting download:

http://www.cdspeed2000.com/

Haven't compared it against Plextools yet. What did you find Ronny?



Plextools is better, IMHO, but before it came out, CD Speed was sufficient to make sure that all audio data could be extracted by the plant successfully.
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William Boyle AKA Elfy

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2005, 05:19:40 am »

Thanks guys.
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HansP

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2005, 09:00:24 am »

allow me a question

is there no SAFE format?

why should anyone deliver in a [dissword] audio CD format that has such a poor error correction and needs particular drives to work with the error testing, that would be obsolete with a data CD?

a metaformat standard would allow to deliver the mastered album in 1-2 standard data CDs and the pressing plant knows exactly what to do with the WAVs. no more copying errors at all! copy protection would be an option that the manufacturer can offer, without any technical bothering to the producer/ME.
in case of a law suit it is very easy to test the content of a data CD. an audio CD can be hurt anytime in variable degrees and you know nothing (who has to pay etc). a data CD is good or unusable and thats it.

does ist not exist?
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bblackwood

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2005, 09:05:13 am »

DDP is that answer, but isn't used very much.

The issue is these errors are meaningless - they don't make it to the final product as they are all correctable. Basically, as long as the master doesn't get rejected, the end product will be no different than if the master had zero errors...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Ronny

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2005, 01:57:16 pm »


Brad is spot on.

We are trying to create a cure to a problem that doesn't exist to a significant enough degree, for it to be a big concern.

How many people have had problems with a cd-r master not being accepted or had one get messed up on the plant's time, not  because of something you did or didn't do in premastering, but was a result caused by the medium itself? Would that mistake, if there is one, be rectified by using another medium? Mistakes can be made with any medium, as long as humans are involved. ITR, nothing is really failsafe, but than again the percentages where mistakes were made, not discovered, and made it down to the first 1000 pressed cd's, is very rare, IME.
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HansP

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Re: C1 C2
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2005, 04:16:43 pm »

brad, ronny,
thx
my concern was the cost of the testing procedure, and the required hard- and software, after I see that many engineers are mentioning this procedure.
with DDP (learning from your answer), the operating system is sufficient for checking. (file compare)
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