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Author Topic: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?  (Read 26119 times)

Oliver Archut

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Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« on: October 16, 2005, 01:06:53 AM »

Just as a follow up topic to Klaus's "Let's Say, You Get a Meeting With a Neumann Executive" earlier post:

Without knowing much about the outcome of that meeting, in my view, Sennheiser's marching direction is quite clear, regarding reissuing classic designs or introducing a new design in the classic German mic tradition:

The slogan in their advertising "Choose the Original" is definitely a marketing idea to promote the current line of O.K. products with reference to the glory days of microphone design of the former mighty Neumann company.

Was there really such a great improvement over the last 80 years- the first forty were spent making the crude Wente invention usable. That lasted for about 10 years, then they finaly got it right and the mics sounded good.

Then the last thirty years were spent making mic specifications look good but trading off the former great sound of the golden days.

I could understand not to reissue their classic designs if there would have been any great leap forward in microphone design since, but just compare the U47 next to an M147, that should say it all.

We could go on and similarly compare the M49 to M149, KM84 to KM184, etc.
Even the new digital design is still a mechanical transducer a la Mr. Wente and not realy all that digital.

In several communiqu
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Oliver Archut
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Meriphew

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2005, 01:27:16 AM »

It's really a shame that Neumann have their minds set against re-issuing the classics. As they stand currently, their mics are mediocre. Certainly not of the same calibre/class that many of the current boutique mic manufacturers are now crafting.

Kelly

Martin Kantola

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2005, 04:30:05 AM »

Well spoken, Oliver!

Here's another thought:

The old classics are beyond doubt excellent microphones and very long-lasting and popular workhorses in the studio.

Problem is, this is in fact not necessarily a good thing if you wish to make money on selling microphones...

What I'm saying is, if a guy buys a microphone that he's happy with for the rest of his life (and for most of his recording applications) his not very likely to replace that one, ever...

I'm all for developing things further and there have been many improvements in microphone design over the last fifty years. Sad thing is that these improvements are almost without exception technically excellent while musically pointless...

As an example, who needs a microphone with lower self noise than the U-47? I certainly can't think of a situation where that would have been the case for me. In fact, most microphones make more noise anyway.

Back to the idea of running a microphone business, if there are no major improvements to be made to the actual sound of a microphone, we're stuck with trying to improve measured values and other features like size, portability, color etc...

***

Now, there are many other aspects of this discussion, one of them being that the old classics are not really available anymore, at least not in the numbers and condition we would wish, so I really feel that it's time to move on, because fact is, for great recordings of great music we need great mikes!

Martin
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Jack Schitt

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2005, 08:33:41 AM »

This is a very similar dilemma to that faced by the guitar builders. Fender and Gibson must compete with their own past. Both of them have found that there is a fairly lucrative market for faithful, qualty reissues of their classic designs.

The caveat is that the reissue will never be completely accepted because a percentage will never accept them as being as good as the original. Of course they have to be true replicas. Using IC in place of point to point or other substitutions of that sort will ruin it.

If mic junkies are anything like guitar junkies, simply buying a great mic they will use forever doesn't in any way preclude them from buying more. If one is good 10 must be better right? It's proven to be true in the world of guitars and I suspect it would be true here as well.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2005, 05:25:29 PM »

No, I cannot comment on my lengthy conversation with the "Neumann Executive" (and conversations with half a dozen other executives or owners of major and minor mic companies.) Neither he nor anyone else I spoke with would tell me a thing again if did not keep my mouth shut.

That does not mean I could not summarize what developed over the three days of conversations as a common thread.  More on that in my AES round up, to be completed and posted here next week.

Martin writes about what he believes to be superfluous microphone developments of recent years:
Quote:

As an example, who needs a microphone with lower self noise than the U-47? I certainly can't think of a situation where that would have been the case for me. In fact, most microphones make more noise anyway.


I disagree. I don't think that the noise floor of a healthy M7 and a well-selected VF14 M is grossly in the way of transmitting information, beauty and sex appeal.

But there is no question that the masking noise of a mic with a noise floor of, let's say, 18dbV is killing some resolution, clarity, and three-dimensionality.

I find nothing wrong in improving noise floor specs of tube or FET mics, if the method employed does not invite in other, equally or more objectionable artifacts.

An example is the B+ voltage fed into certain mics using EF86 tubes: The voltage is so low that you are constantly fighting noise and headroom issues.
All power to those who understand how to optimize circuits and bring down noise!
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Klaus Heyne
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maxdimario

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2005, 05:51:34 PM »

Quote:

The old classics are beyond doubt excellent microphones and very long-lasting and popular workhorses in the studio.


there is also the fact that once you hear a good one, the other ones don't seem as good as you thought they were.

I mean...by keeping the quality at sufficient level, but never exceptional, you can continue to produce at lower cost without anyone really noticing.

one good mic is worth 3 mediocre ones.

of course you have to change the way you use the mics, but it CAN be done with fewer better mics.

I don't believe neumann/senn. can use similar manufacturing techniques and marketing strategies to the cheaper alternatives that are popping up, and expect to enjoy the reputation that was built on the u47/67/49/km series for much longer.

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Martin Kantola

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2005, 06:01:45 PM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 22:25


Martin writes about what he believes to be superfluous microphone developments of recent years:
Quote:

As an example, who needs a microphone with lower self noise than the U-47? I certainly can't think of a situation where that would have been the case for me. In fact, most microphones make more noise anyway.


I disagree. I don't think that the noise floor of a healthy M7 and a well-selected VF14 M is grossly in the way of transmitting information, beauty and sex appeal.


Sorry Klaus, but I think you somehow misunderstood my point. In fact I was praising the very low noise of my U-47! Had a chance to compare it A/B to a Solution-D (the digital Neumann) and they've actually managed to lower the noise by a few dB's in fifty years, but as for recording a vocal there was really no competition from the newcomer...

Another example are the KM-56's I use a lot, they have much more self noise than my DPA 4011's, but in many cases I prefer the sound of the Neumanns, and there has never been a need for any noise reduction.

The effect of masking noise could be difficult to discuss, because to my ears, noise comes in so many flavours. Sometimes I get the feeling that the noise of my mikes is doing a great job in providing dither for the digital recording format.  

Martin
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squeegybug

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 10:26:03 PM »

Meriphew wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 00:27

It's really a shame that Neumann have their minds set against re-issuing the classics. As they stand currently, their mics are mediocre. Certainly not of the same calibre/class that many of the current boutique mic manufacturers are now crafting.

Kelly

hmmm, a blanket statement?  I was happy enough with a recent model Neumann mic to keep it instead of several boutique candidates.  And though some of those "custom" mics sounded good too, I can't say I was always thrilled with build quality, or the manufacturers' support.

I think there certainly is a tendency to expect Neumann to match or exceed particular tones of their past products.  I would probably like to consider them if they did, if they turned out to be reasonably affordable.  But that does not necessarily lessen my satisfaction with the current model I have; it's just different.

Steve Scott
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2005, 12:10:09 AM »

squeegybug wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:26

[
I think there certainly is a tendency to expect Neumann to match or exceed particular tones of their past products.  I would probably like to consider them if they did, if they turned out to be reasonably affordable.


You combine a couple of criteria that are not necessarily compatible: Quality, but at a price point you deem "reasonably affordable".

I don't think that is really possible.
U47s in the early 1950s were sinfully expensive, in real dollars and in the studio equipment climate of the day.  Believe me when I tell you from my own experience: You cannot make an exceptional sounding microphone of superb construction and quality for a reasonably affordable price. That, after all, was one of the reasons Neumann was close to bankruptcy in the 1980s,  before the gallant rescue by its competitor.

You may have to think absolutes here if you want absolute quality, and there are examples how it can be done:

Porsche's 911 history is just that:
an exceptional car whose evolution of improvements has continued from model  to model, and has still not stopped.  Design, technology and, most important of all, "feel" - the gut reaction to driving one of these cars, has continued to be extraordinary through these model evolutions to the present day.

There is no law of physics or economy that dictates that Neumann or any other manufacturer who wants to put his mind and passion to it, could not do the same in the field of microphones.
But it may not be a time right now where these kind of risks are taken- risks which originate in a passion to excell...
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Klaus Heyne
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2005, 12:23:46 AM »

Klaus,

I agree quality has a price.  And the Porsche analogy maybe closer than you think.  The question is: how much market share does Neumann (or Sennheiser for Neumann) expect?  When it comes to total car sales, Porsche's share is much smaller than other manufacturers who make an "economy" car.  So, will Neumann be "happy" (ie. financially solid) if they offer only niche products at high prices?

If the strategy is "some economy mics and some expensive ones" then the analogy is other than Porsche.  The central question is how do Neumann envision their future?  That is followed by "what range of quality will be offered?"  1960s VW Beetle quality to Rolls-Royce quality?  Neither VW nor Rolls-Royce attempt that range of products.

Barry
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Martin Kantola

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Re: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2005, 04:49:51 AM »

Before we get too deep into the car versus microphone discussion, I'd like to point out that there's a huge difference... Don't know too much about cars, but isn't it safe to say that:

1. there are plenty of new cars out there for every taste and budget.

2. vintage cars are seldom bought to be used in everyday work, there would be new ones that are better suited for that.

3. there has been significant improvement in cars over the last 50 years.

Not so with microphones. I still use my '47 almost every day, and if it would be stolen or destroyed, there would not be a replacement to go out and buy. Regarding number three, anybody found a better vocal mike for universal use yet?

Martin
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Gustav

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Re: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2005, 08:45:49 AM »

lets look at a TLM103

Great grill design kind of like a 87/67 grill. I don't hear the echos grill/eq of round grills bigger than say a c12 size.

Good metal thickness in the body

A good capsule for what I guess it was designed for IMO.

A nice discrete circuit, looks like a fet cascode input, BJT design with laser trimmed resistors.  The one IC is for the DC to DC converter for the capsule voltage

All I hear wrong with the design is what seem to sound like ceramic caps to my ears

I own one and have had it apart.

So what is Neumann doing wrong?

 If you can't get good tubes what do you do?

 Maybe Neumann could make a small run of microphones based on the older tube models but a large scale run might be very hard to do.  Even Brauner switched tubes in the VM1 my VM1 has a ef86 but the web site has a different tube listed.

Gustav
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maxdimario

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Re: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2005, 10:00:56 AM »

As the economy is changing, one thing that's happening is that mega-luxury items still work, whereas the middle has dropped out a bit.

there are people around here that spend 200,000 euro and up on cars as toys, and there is always a market for the best.

It's when the companies that were conceived to build only the best change their policy and begin to cater to the middle and lower markets then everything goes to hell.

it is essential for these low-production companies to focus on being absolutely the best.

neumann should have improved their quality instead of cutting back as an effort to survive.

The company that was built on quality with low production rates, falls apart when it begins to focus on volume.

When the best in the business become mediocre the whole 'industry' suffers as there are no more benchmarks, and anyone can claim greatness.

there comes a time in every professional's life where they realize that it is more cost-effective to choose the ideal tools regardless of cost, but nobody who is at that level is ignorant enough to believe in  run-of-the-mill corporate 'product descriptions' so it won't work without extremely high standards.
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squeegybug

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Re: "Can Neumann reissue the classic german designs"!
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2005, 11:38:01 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 23:10

You combine a couple of criteria that are not necessarily compatible: Quality, but at a price point you deem "reasonably affordable".

I don't think that is really possible.
U47s in the early 1950s were sinfully expensive, in real dollars and in the studio equipment climate of the day.  Believe me when I tell you from my own experience: You cannot make an exceptional sounding microphone of superb construction and quality for a reasonably affordable price. That, after all, was one of the reasons Neumann was close to bankruptcy in the 1980s,  before the gallant rescue by its competitor.


Klaus,

I understand the dilemma.  It was not my intention to describe limitations on price vs. quality.  I am not one of those demanding that Neumann reproduce classic microphones because their current products are "mediocre" and somehow unusable; quite the opposite.  It seems many folks do expect Neumann to produce the vintage quality at today's boutique mic price, or less.  I would consider such a microphone, from any manufacturer, only if it fit in my scope of value, as I have to determine for everything I buy.

Using anecdotal pricing per Oliver Archut and others, a new U47 might have cost $350 USD in the mid-1950s.  Inflation calculators show this cost to be about $2400 today.  I realize that ratio might have been high in the '50s compared to other studio equipment.  But certainly not by today's standards.

And I agree, my perception of value is also determined by feel, as much as or more than anything else.

Steve
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Oliver Archut

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Re: Could Neumann Reissue The Classic German Designs?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2005, 12:02:08 PM »

Hello Steve,

Here is my price calculation, based on the price of comparable car/truck prices....

You might want to take into consideration that in the mid 1950s a U47 sold for approximately $350 USD when a standard Ford F150 sold for approximately. $1900. This was about 18.42% of a new truck. The last standard F150 I inquired about was approximately $32,000 USD (about three month ago), so today a U47 or a good recreation should be around $5760 (if it were new and in as good supply as new Ford F-150 pickups).

You can find the reprint here http://mercenary.com/oliverarchut.html,
It is somewhere also here in the archives of Klaus's forum, but could not find it..

As I said, maybe not to envision the U47 as an reissue, but the M49 or U67 could be made with similar pricing as (inflation adjusted) originally priced, even if they have to make new tubes... It is a question if Sennheiser wants to do it, not a question if it is possible.

Sure maybe they lost the ability to build great stuff in general, I also asked at AES if they could make a real MD409 again... Their new version of it the E609 has the same shortcomings than the new Neumann products.

Best regards,

Oliver



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Oliver Archut
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We are so advanced, that we can develop technology that can determine how much damage the earth has taken from the development of that technology.
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