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Author Topic: Incurable Defects  (Read 3877 times)

turtletone

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2005, 01:27:37 AM »

dcollins wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 01:15

TurtleTone wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 22:12

Let's not.


What was it called?

DC



booty boody.

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Ronny

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2005, 04:02:20 AM »

dcollins wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 23:20

alanfc wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 19:24


Would it be easier to correct problems in Hi/Low ends with taming or cutting freq's, rather than goosing them when they aren't there?



Oh yes, absolutely.

DC




Not absolute for me, some mixes don't need fixing and it's much easier to slightly enhance a good mix in a few spots, than it is to try and fix a "bass in the next room" sound, because they rolled off everything below 80Hz.
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davidc

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2005, 05:54:14 AM »


I know this has been said again and again and again, but one more time ain't gonna do no harm!

The NO 1 problem is level. I often get mixes that look like bricks before I even start. I just did a project where they asked me what to avoid, and I told them no limiting, and not too loud. So what do I get - totally clipped, 8db over fs. This was not a home mix, but from a pro studio. When I rang the guy up, he said "oh was it loud".

I think the biggest cause, is the references people are using. Modern masters, are not good references to use when you are mixing, I would use CD's that were released in the 80's or early 90's.

Dave
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jackthebear

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2005, 06:36:34 AM »

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:54


I would use CD's that were released in the 80's or early 90's.



If you were doing an 80's or 90's cd then maybe.....but the problem isn't so much that modern cds are being used... it's that they are mixing to the same level as the modern day refences.

Cheers,

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davidc

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2005, 06:58:53 AM »

jackthebear wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 11:36

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:54


I would use CD's that were released in the 80's or early 90's.



If you were doing an 80's or 90's cd then maybe.....but the problem isn't so much that modern cds are being used... it's that they are mixing to the same level as the modern day refences.

Cheers,




I am not talking about the style, just the sound and level. Most modern CD's are not just loud, but they have an edge from all the limiting and/or clipping etc.

Dave
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jackthebear

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2005, 07:21:39 AM »

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 20:58

jackthebear wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 11:36

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:54


I would use CD's that were released in the 80's or early 90's.



If you were doing an 80's or 90's cd then maybe.....but the problem isn't so much that modern cds are being used... it's that they are mixing to the same level as the modern day refences.

Cheers,




I am not talking about the style, just the sound and level. Most modern CD's are not just loud, but they have an edge from all the limiting and/or clipping etc.

Dave


But most people are trying to compete with what's out there now. The fact that they are loud and / or clipped only compounds the problem.

Most won't use older cds because chances are they are going for a different sound anyway.

Cheers,
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davidc

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2005, 07:49:23 AM »

jackthebear wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 12:21

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 20:58

jackthebear wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 11:36

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:54


I would use CD's that were released in the 80's or early 90's.



If you were doing an 80's or 90's cd then maybe.....but the problem isn't so much that modern cds are being used... it's that they are mixing to the same level as the modern day refences.

Cheers,




I am not talking about the style, just the sound and level. Most modern CD's are not just loud, but they have an edge from all the limiting and/or clipping etc.

Dave


But most people are trying to compete with what's out there now. The fact that they are loud and / or clipped only compounds the problem.

Most won't use older cds because chances are they are going for a different sound anyway.

Cheers,



I think we are in agreement  Smile. What I am trying to say, is that a great mix should not sound like a modern finished CD.

Regards

Dave
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jackthebear

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2005, 08:09:25 AM »

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 21:49


I think we are in agreement  Smile. What I am trying to say, is that a great mix should not sound like a modern finished CD.



Phwew!!!! I'm glad we got there! Smile

Cheers,
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bobkatz

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2005, 09:03:54 AM »

blueboy wrote on Sat, 15 October 2005 20:18

Are any of you aware of any "pre-mastered" audio that could be used as reference material for producing better mixes?

Either material that is a best case scenario of what an ME likes to receive in terms of dynamics and spectral balance....

or on the flip side....

material that specifically demonstrates the types of problems you are discussing here that should be avoided.

(i.e. Something along the lines of an audio mastering course with audio samples on CD).

Thanks.

JL


Write me privately. I have a CD of before/after examples. Also, the honor roll at digido.com has some example of "low level" masters that may sound to you like "the ideal mix that the mix engineer would have liked". After all, and this is my motto: If the master you get does not sound as good as or better than your mix, why did you go to mastering in the first place?

Tony M. would reply, "if that is your motto, how can you break your word?  Why don't you just give up the job if they want you to shred it?"  And I reply, "I'm doing my best. To be totally honest, I have done a lot to help the situation  around the world. Many engineers around the world have read my book and totally rethinked their practices; many have written me letters of thanks. This includes the ear training and all.

So I think I deserve a little slack if I preach but sometimes still sin just to be able to afford to make a living. I practice what I preach... (most times).
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bobkatz

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2005, 09:31:57 AM »

TurtleTone wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 01:03

The biggest problem I find is bottom up or top down eq'ing. Basically monitoring on nearfield's and eq'ing from the bottom, say 30 or 40hz, boosting it until you hear a difference. Also the top end, setting the eq at 20k and cranking it until you hear it. I call it treble bass syndrome.





Good one. I'm glad a lot of my "Genelec fan" mixers are converting from their 1031s to 8040s or if necessary 8050s. I'm getting less of that issue nowadays and mixes that translate here with less and less (little or no) mastering EQ!

To alter the topic (change the subject heading if you respond)

Another question: Have you noticed that bright loudspeakers don't always make you mix "dull". 25 years ago I had to work with a pair of 4311's for a mixdown and the first thing I did was play a recording I made and knew well.... and they were screeching at me so I put in an equalizer to try to tame that. I ended up with a very strident mixdown!

Sometimes it pays just to leave loudspeakers speaking as they are because the designer probably voiced them to be the best they could be, and any changes you try to make to them will be worse. To this day I don't know if it was phase response of the eq I added, or that I overcompensated, but that was a lesson that I retain to this day: "Be very careful when you try to equalize a loudspeaker!"

Same working with the Big Reds (the Audiotechniques ones based on the 604s). Those speakers also had a very strong presence peak and were also quite honky. Yet, despite that I mixed, for example, alto saxaphones with too much presence. I still can't understand why, as in theory you would mix to the inverse response of a loudspeaker. I theorize that the lower resolution and cabinet resonances/diffraction of the loudspeaker were leading me to pre-equalize the saxaphone to give it more presence that it did not need when reproduced on better loudspeakers.
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There are two kinds of fools,
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The other says-this is new and therefore better."

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electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

bobkatz

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2005, 09:44:04 AM »

davidc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 05:54


I know this has been said again and again and again, but one more time ain't gonna do no harm!

The NO 1 problem is level.

Dave


Increasingly, I agree with you, Dave. The best thing we can preach (oh, there again, I thought we weren't supposed to dictate "quality")....  is for mix engineers to produce mixes that sound like mixes and (to quote Brad Blackwood's site) were mixed for sound quality, not for loudness per se.

BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
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alanfc

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2005, 01:27:43 PM »


WOW again  Shocked
thank you all

I've been told that the 24-bit stereo files I give to an ME should have peaks maxxing at -6.0db and thats the way they like it yes?
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2005, 02:31:19 PM »

I think too much low-end is probably easier to deal with than too little.

Ronny

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2005, 02:31:39 PM »

alanfc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 13:27


WOW again  Shocked
thank you all

I've been told that the 24-bit stereo files I give to an ME should have peaks maxxing at -6.0db and thats the way they like it yes?



No, each ME is different and there is no accepted standard for headroom left by the mix engineer for the ME to have when mastering. I've said this before but will mention it again. I don't care what peak level I receive as long as it's not over -0dBFs, because I'm going to attenuate any processors input by the amount of dB's that I'm going to have boosted at the output of that processor. IOW, there is no problem regarding leaving or not leaving x amount of headroom.

Tony, I agree with David. He's stating an obvious problem and that is that mix engs are using post mastered commercial cd's to set their RMS levels on the two buss, so by the time that it goes to mastering they have already decreased the dynamics so much that the ME has little to work with. Relative to this alanfc is not just peak levels below x amount of dB's, but the loss of crest factor which ties the ME's hands behind their back. If RMS is only -6dB and peak is -3dB or whatever, it doesn't help the mastering grind a bit. It's the RMS, not the peak that David is talking about and that "is" the major problem.
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bobkatz

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Re: Incurable Defects
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2005, 04:37:33 PM »

alanfc wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 13:27


WOW again  Shocked
thank you all

I've been told that the 24-bit stereo files I give to an ME should have peaks maxxing at -6.0db and thats the way they like it yes?


If measuring the peak level could magically tell us how good your disc sounds that would be magical! But seriously, -3 is also ok, even -1 dBFS if you have confidence in your meters. I wouldn't be concerned even if your highest peak "only" hits -10 dBFS in a 24 bit system to be totally honest. It's a good question when there would be "audible degradation" but certainly -10 dBFS is VERY safe from both high and low points of view.


BK
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There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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