Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lek]

I remember reading in Bob's Mastering Audio book that if a digital mixer is not of high enough resolution, sound quality/depth will be affected even by fader moves.

Is this test viable - I mixed through my yamaha digital mixer, and noticed that everything sounded best with faders at 0db. I moved faders down, then boosted the overall with my benchmark dac volume, or moved faders up and similarly compensated by lowering the overall volume. To my ears the voice and guitars lost clarity, definition, warmth and stereo image. Yes I know the levels may have not been perfectly matched - but I even occasionally overcompensated by keeping the overall volume a little extra high when the faders were not in the 0db position.

So I tried using the faders on Logic 5.0 platinum on the pc. I only tested this time with a song with two acoustic guitars, but again I felt a decrease in quality if I moved faders - up or down (edited - I did this again and noticed it is not as bad as with the yamaha)

Am I going crazy or is anyone else experiencing this? Is there a better digital mixing solution of higher resolution (other software?)

I'm ready to get a d/a16 and send everything through an analog mixer - do you think this would remedy the situation?
thanks for any help

[Ronny]

lek wrote on Mon, 10 October 2005 14:46

I remember reading in Bob's Mastering Audio book that if a digital mixer is not of high enough resolution, sound quality/depth will be affected even by fader moves. Is this test viable - I mixed through my yamaha digital mixer, and noticed that everything sounded best with faders at 0db. I moved faders down, then boosted the overall with my benchmark dac volume, or moved faders up and similarly compensated by lowering the overall volume. To my ears the voice and guitars lost clarity, definition, warmth and stereo image. Yes I know the levels may have not been perfectly matched - but I even occasionally overcompensated by keeping the overall volume a little extra high when the faders were not in the 0db position. So I tried using the faders on Logic 5.0 platinum on the pc. I only tested this time with a song with two acoustic guitars, but again I felt a decrease in quality if I moved faders - up or down. Am I going crazy or is anyone else experiencing this? Is there a better digital mixing solution of higher resolution (other software?) I'm ready to get a d/a16 and send everything through an analog mixer - do you think this would remedy the situation? thanks for any help

You won't hear any difference when the levels are perfectly matched. 32 bit consoles do not degrade the signal when you raise or lower a fader. Eliminate E/I factor by testing in the blind. It's not uncommon for people to misinterpret something that is written in a book and have it affect their sonic evaluation if they aren't testing blind.

[lek]

I am hearing a difference.
In fact, the eq's in my yamaha are supposed to be 44 bit, but they destroy the sound of my tracks as well.

The reverbs do as well - I posted something a few months ago wondering about the quality of the reverb (yam aw4416). Since then I have bought a kurzweil ksp8 - and the difference is astonishing.

Ronny, by the way, you had responded to that thread and told me the aw4416's reverbs are fine, and I've concluded they're crap. Actually the whole unit is a piece of crap (sorry, it's good for recording via digital, but not much else unless you want ease of use - though the editing is cumbersome). I've upgraded the front end (crane song spider, api), but now realize the back end stinks (pun intended)

So I thought I'd transfer it all to computer and mix from there. Logic does seem to sound better, but I will do blind tests.

[zetterstroem]

i had the same experience with things sounding different.....

this was in protools..... it helped when i switched to a mixing algorithm that applies dither when the fader leaves zero.... but still it sounds better at zero....

protools is fixed point.... maybe that has something to say....

[maxdimario]

Quote:

You won't hear any difference when the levels are perfectly matched. 32 bit consoles do not degrade the signal when you raise or lower a fader. Eliminate E/I factor by testing in the blind. It's not uncommon for people to misinterpret something that is written in a book and have it affect their sonic evaluation if they aren't testing blind.

who is hearing and who is reading?

[Ronny]

lek wrote on Mon, 10 October 2005 16:38

I am hearing a difference. In fact, the eq's in my yamaha are supposed to be 44 bit, but they destroy the sound of my tracks as well. The reverbs do as well - I posted something a few months ago wondering about the quality of the reverb (yam aw4416). Since then I have bought a kurzweil ksp8 - and the difference is astonishing. Ronny, by the way, you had responded to that thread and told me the aw4416's reverbs are fine, and I've concluded they're crap. Actually the whole unit is a piece of crap (sorry, it's good for recording via digital, but not much else unless you want ease of use - though the editing is cumbersome). I've upgraded the front end (crane song spider, api), but now realize the back end stinks (pun intended) So I thought I'd transfer it all to computer and mix from there. Logic does seem to sound better, but I will do blind tests.

Yes, the KSP8 is much smoother sounding and better in all aspects, it also costs close to the same price as the whole AW goes for now. The ADC's in the 4416 are an improvement on the 02r and verbs are exactly the same as is most of the architecture although some of it scaled down to the channel count. Many hit songs were recorded and mixed via the same Yam architecture that is in the 4416. I've mastered at least 50 projects done entirely with the AW series units and some of the better ones beat out the SSL or AMEK mixes that I've mastered. None of the factory verbs or eq patches work well, but with some tweaking many people are getting very good quality material on these units including Mick Jagger who has a couple for his personal use. If you use better front and back end and use only the digital structure in the console the sound will be as good as any. The major improvement is with the 96k yammy consoles, the ADC's and especially the DAC's are much better than the older 20 and 24 bit 48k converters. They've also upped the eq accumulators to 56 bit. The architecture on the 4416 is over 5 years old, so improvements were expected, but it's still getting a lot of use in project studios all the way from Amsterdam to Oz and in between.

[William Boyle AKA Elfy]

zetterstroem wrote on Mon, 10 October 2005 22:48

i had the same experience with things sounding different..... this was in protools..... it helped when i switched to a mixing algorithm that applies dither when the fader leaves zero.... but still it sounds better at zero.... protools is fixed point.... maybe that has something to say....

Hi Zet,
would you care to elaborate on what you mean by switching mixing algorithms.
Cheers

[zetterstroem]

yes....

protools is shipped with two different mixers..... the standard mixer and the dithered one....

the standard resides in the "plug-ins" folder and the dithered in "unused" folder....

if you switch those dither is applied to all fader moves.... with increased use of dsp of course...

[Thrizill]

How do I open the stereo dithered mixer. I found it in the unused, but I can't find the application to open it.

[ammitsboel]

Digital mixing is invented for convenience don't forget that.
It will newer be able to compete sonically with analog mixing as it's way of operating is simply based on too many compromises.

[Ronny]

ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 12:15

Digital mixing is invented for convenience don't forget that. It will newer be able to compete sonically with analog mixing as it's way of operating is simply based on too many compromises.

What compromises would that be?

[ammitsboel]

Ronny wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 17:28

ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 12:15 Digital mixing is invented for convenience don't forget that. It will newer be able to compete sonically with analog mixing as it's way of operating is simply based on too many compromises. What compromises would that be?

Knowledge of compromises is not contributing to anything unless you can relate them to what you hear.

Dig and you shall find!...
I would always recommend listening to about 5-10 records from each decade starting with the 40'ties and up to now.

[blairl]

Thrizill wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 09:56

How do I open the stereo dithered mixer. I found it in the unused, but I can't find the application to open it.

There are two plug-ins folders for Pro Tools.  One says, "plug-ins" and the other says "plug-ins (unused)".  

1)  Go to the plug-ins folder and find "Stereo Mixer"
2)  Move this plug-in to the plug-ins (unused) folder.
3)  Go to the plug-ins (unused) folder and find "Stereo Dithered Mixer".
4)  Move this plug-in to the plug-ins folder.

The next time you launch Pro Tools the dithered mixer will automatically load.  It will always remain this way unless you remove it from the plug-ins folder.

[Jon Hodgson]

ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 17:42

Ronny wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 17:28 ammitsboel wrote on Tue, 11 October 2005 12:15 Digital mixing is invented for convenience don't forget that. It will newer be able to compete sonically with analog mixing as it's way of operating is simply based on too many compromises. What compromises would that be? Knowledge of compromises is not contributing to anything unless you can relate them to what you hear. Dig and you shall find!... I would always recommend listening to about 5-10 records from each decade starting with the 40'ties and up to now.

So what you're saying is...

You don't know, but you think you can hear them?

Or are you saying that you do know, but such knowledge is not for mere cloth eared minions?

[Bob Olhsson]

Getting volume controls right has been one of the trickiest aspects of real world digital signal processing.

I'll never forget the look on people's faces back when turning the volume down 10 dB. in ProTools 4 sounded way way worse than turning it down the same amount in Sonic Solutions. The only thing more dramatic was when a WAVES Ren EQ. plug-in used in the same PT4 system slaughtered the sound of the Sonic Solutions!

There's no substitute for getting high-end, non-flattering DACs, non-flattering monitors and listening with the levels very carefully matched to within .1 dB. There's lots of funky math floating around from developers who think gain changes are too mathematically trivial to require careful listening tests.