Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[7minAbs]

Hello-
I am producing audio (VT/music) for a radio show. Our company has never really done this before (all of our stuff is web based) and I am wondering how much compression/limiting I should apply.

I did a prototype that they basically liked which had a multiband boosting somewhere around 800hz and above and a slight drop below that. I do not believe they tested it in it's final environment, though, and I am concerned that it will sound tinny due to the additional comp/limiting added by the gear they use at the stations.

Can anyone give me insight based on their experiences with this? very much appreciated.

[Phil]

It's best to not try to second-guess the radio environment. The tools used in professional broadcast are specific to the problems that arise in sending audio via the transmitters, and are in no way second-best in regards to recording equipment. They do not buy their stuff at the local truck stop CB store!

Keep your levels under control in mixing your program material without using massive amounts of compression. In fact, be very judicious  with compression and equalization -- it will be compressed again before being sent to the transmitter to keep over modulation under control, among other reasons.

Go to http://www.orban.com/orban/products/radio/fm/8500_overview.h tml for a quick look at modern broadcast processing, and some general ideas.

[7minAbs]

Thanks for the reply. The audio I sent them was raw for the most part and it sounds like, based on your response, that was the right path to take.

As far as second-guessing the radio environment, I was second-guessing the client or more specifically their instinct as to how the audio would translate in that environment.

Thank you again.

Regards,
7minAbs

[Teddy G.]

Welllll.....?

Keep in mind that NOTHING a radio station gets in to run is "raw", perse... Nor does yours have to be. If you're recording something for broadcast, if it sounds good at your place it'll likely sound OK there, too. Me? I'd use a bit of EQ if it seemed to help(Hey, it's MY radio show!) and a bit of compression, even if in just an "overall" kind've a way? Like -6db at 3:1, how's that? Just a bit. Or -- 20db at 20:1! Hey, if it sounds like I want it to sound??? What can I do about what the radio station does or does not do later???? I'd certainly NOT overmodulate or clip, but, the "closer to 0db" without going over, I can keep things, the better! Take that PBS lovers!!! So a bit of limiting might be needed(Though if your limiter is flashing red alot you'd better turn down the volume or up the limiting a bit more -- It's your call!).

Me? I wouldn't add/subtract one single thing to a pre-recorded song I played in my show. Let the record company shine or fall on their own! Of course, if it's all just being fed into a two-track at the same time, so what? It gets a teense of compression - oh well - you ain't using much anyway, right..?

If possible, let the thing run on the station and LISTEN YOURSELF! How does it sound? If you can hear the station from where you are maybe you can do some "tuning" to the way you do things to accomodate a particular station? Casey Casem(Sp?) certainly never worried about it much on my particular station? I didn't either... it was HIS show!

There are "tricks". One can get a little radio transmitter(Like a wireles mic with a line input?) Run your show through it, listen to it "like it's on a radio" - heck LISTEN to it ON A RADIO. Might help? I don't know?

Make it sound good. Send it in. If something is really terrible, someone will likely tell you ALL about it! Or cancel you. Oh well, what's a stupid radio station know about audio quality anyway..?


TG

[doughiggins]

I don't subscribe to the "using very little compression" theory.

I don't necessarily compress a lot, but I do keep the levels up and try to compress more than limit to keep them up.  I usually turn in material that peaks at -3dbfs, sometimes higher. Most of the software hard disk systems will analyze the file any ways on load in.  

Getting a transmitter is not quite apples to apples, as the radio processing is really where all the "stuff" happens.

If your levels are fairly consistent, you'll be fine. You may want to filter off your top and bottom 50/16k ish, especially if it ever gets into low quality mpeg streams.

[maxdimario]

A typical broadcast limiter has an agc or compander driving a 5 or 7 band multi-band compressor with separate controls on each band as well as clipping circuits on each band.

the Orban, which is the most widely used, calculates peak-to-average ratio, in a way that a sine wave will never modulate 100% but regular program material with a normal amount of dynamics will modulate higher.

this is because of the sensing circuit.

some radio-stations, also put other effects in line such as stereo enhancers, which will emphasise the Reverb/direct sound ratio.

So watch your stereo reverb levels, they most likely will be exaggerated.

one good way to check your material is to push it through a stereo enhancer, a compressor then a multi-band compressor at heavy and fast settings and moderate clipping (Is the station that is going to play the recordings CHR-loud? most formats have their own style of setting up the multi-band compressor, and some have different settings for nightime and daytime etc).

if you can compress and multi-band and stereo enhance the track and it compares favourably to other recordings under this effects chain, you will probably be well off.

[Phil]

Teddy G. wrote on Wed, 05 October 2005 20:21

Oh well, what's a stupid radio station know about audio quality anyway..?

Teddy, I'm sure your remark was meant in jest, and that's the way I took it. But I'm going to borrow it, if I may, to add a little to the thread.

I grew up working in radio stations, literally. It was the family business, until my father died. I have seen the results of over-zealous processing when someone's song or show hits the air. The worst I've ever heard was a Blondie tune that was broadcast on television. The high frequency response was boosted to the extent that the peak limiter had to reduce the program level so much that the song was almost inaudible.

Most certainly, a song or a show should be mixed in the manner one's creative juices demand for creative purposes. But to mix anything with the attitude that the radio station broadcast chain is a bunch of breadboarded doo-dads picked up off the Radio Shack sale table is asking for trouble. I have my own little formula for preparing material that will go to broadcast, and it seems to work well under real-world conditions. It's like mastering; anyone can slam and smash a mix, and call it mastered. It takes experience and understanding to prepare material so that it will be presented in the best manner to the most people.

It's rare that anyone other than studio personnel hears a master recording. A mix will be judged initially, in most cases, by how it sounds on the air, whether it's a song, a program, or a commercial. All of theses things are important elements of the broadcast medium, and should be treated with an attitude of professionalism. It's in the best interest of the production to do so.

[Teddy G.]

The absolute best radio station I ever worked at(At least "fun-wise"), an AM'er, used an AKG D1000e, as it's main mike. What'd they cost,like 50 bucks in 1976? Sounded great(Well, it sounded like we could have used better mics!), but one, at the time, could indeed have purchased similar mics from Radio Shack(Or even Lafayette!). They also had alot of very fine gear, though alot of it old and "modified" by a great, young engineer and the talent their was tremendous, so the place still sounded spectacular. Tons of compression, tons of added bass, we sounded great on all the kids transistor/car radios - and the ratings reflected same. On the other hand, the FM station I was at when I saw my first Orban(Same time actually, different station - I was working at 3 at the time in 2 different states.), was attached to Collins latest xmttr and some very nice, yet "minimalist" other stuff. The engineer for our tiny station was also the chief at a big station in Washington, D.C. - and he liked to use us to "play with". Alot of his time was spent "tuning" - the Orbans were quite new at the time, nobody quite knew what to do with them. The station sounded good.  Contrast that to another, much larger market Orban-equipped station I worked at later on, where the "tuning" of the stations "sound" was done by 4 of us(The GM, the SM, the Chief and I) crowding into the SM's car and driving down the roads at 60+ determining how we should sound by listening on his factory car radio... God, that was embarassing... Fortunately the GM and SM tired of "tuning" soon enough and the Chief got us set right again. By the way: at this station we never had better than EV-635a's The GM said he couldn't hear the difference between them and the RE20's, so why spend the money? Why, indeed! Meanwhile he drove a new(Traded) Cadillac and swung custom-made clubs. We, as talent, always knew where we stood(Yes, we still made the station sound fine.).

Is their a point, Teddy? Maybe..? SOME radio stations have wonderful equipment and use it well. SOME radio stations don't. Again, if this show is for a particular, single radio station, within listening range of the show producer, certainly the opportunity may exist to "tune the show" to the station(Over time) if one desires. But and again, just for general production, for ANYONE to play whatever you make on anything, anywhere, one must just make it sound wonderful to themselves, on THEIR "stuff", using whatever methods/equipment one can make use of - which is the main reason I believe that we all want to have the best possible stuff(Along with a nice assortment of "junk" to "test" with.)...

TG    

BTW - There are tiny transmitters WITH built-in compressors and limiters and EQ(Not exactly Orban...), which for a modest amount, for a semi-serious producer(I don't think we're even THAT serious here, are we?) can very well give one a fair idea of how one's work may sound "on air". I forget the one company that makes them(Along with all manor of electronic/ham radio gadgetry.)... Make use of what one can! The little "bad" speakers, Auratones, were a fine idea and well implemented and helpful, too, sitting on consoles in the same studios along with the wall-mounted Westlakes! Anything you can think of/afford to sound better, give it a try...

[7minAbs]

It's nice to get responses from people who actually have a passion for this stuff. I am just trying to make my boss and a nightmare client happy. I will definitely take all the points made and try to make sense of the madness.

I hear ya about being true to oneself...

I will post a link to the final product when it goes primetime and you all can tell me what you think.

thanks!

[burp182]

A scary little truth of the radio industry is that most stations have no idea of the cumulative effect of the station's processing.  The signal is usually processed two or three times. The first step is when the material is loaded into the automated playback system most stations use now. The material is ripped in as a sort of glorified mp3. The change varies based on the format used in the particular system. Next, the signal is generally processed before it leaves the station to some degree. Finally it is run thru the final processor at the transmitter. This last step is designed to, among other things, protect the very expensive transmitter from levels that could damage it. This step is far less concerned with your music than with the transmitter it guards. Very few stations have ever taken a test signal thru the path to a receiver and qualitatively noted the results. Generally, they adjust it till it sounds pretty good to them. There's no disrespect intended here. It just makes for a really frightening, highly variable set of parameters at each broadcast location. Makes you appreciate the skills of good mastering engineers even more.

[Phil]

burp182 wrote on Mon, 10 October 2005 17:43

Very few stations have ever taken a test signal thru the path to a receiver and qualitatively noted the results.

Stations are no longer required by the FCC to do an annual proof of performance?

[Teddy G.]

Not to get into a huge diatribe over how broadcast radio operates today(Much as I'd like to), but consider that, in my area anyway, each of the larger cities has about a dozen stations. Half of the stations owned by one company, half by another(Maybe an independent or two?). Seriously now! At times, some of those "lesser" stations are OFF-AIR for w-e-e-k-s at a time, often blamed on equipment problems?

Fact is that most stations in most markets, these days, are just "held licenses". Inotherwords, the big companies buy-up licenses to smaller stations just to keep the niggling competition out. What is on these "held" stations is..? Well, they don't really care - "All Sports Betting All The Time", seems to be a "biggie".

Yearly "proof of performance"? I don't know. How about "Daily performance"? All one has to do is listen. Overmod, undermod, noise, dead-air(Most are unattended "satellite" programming). Even the larger stations often use "satellite" programming for a large amount of their air-time. Nearly impossible to find a "real local person" on-air after 7pm, here, let alone all-night. I can dial around in the evening and hear the SAME SHOW on 7, or more stations! FM stations! "Local" stations! One of my DJ friends does two "radio shows" everyday, one live and one taking about 20 minutes to program "liners" into a computer for later broadcast on one of his company's lesser facilities. Other friends do 3 or 4 such "shows"? How good can it be? Certainly there are a few stations left that do try to do well, but, they are WAY in the minority.

A "Chief Engineer" is no longer required, nor is an engineering license. The station GM's 14 year old kid can be "the chief", far as the FCC is concerned. It has been left up to the stations to determine if the "engineering performance" is proper. There are still supposed to be rules, but..? Again... who follows them? Who knows?

TG

[maccool]

Surely not to everyone's taste, but close to my heart, here's a radio station I think worth supporting;  http://ckua.com/