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Author Topic: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....  (Read 31532 times)

Andy Simpson

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Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« on: September 30, 2005, 12:45:18 PM »

I was tracking a drumkit the other day and come mix-time, we all felt like the drums were way too 'spiky' - too dynamic - wouldn't 'sit down'.

I was about to reach for the compression when I decided to just roll off with a shelf at around 2k.....et voila....the drums sat right down and sounded very natural. The dynamics sounded perfect and it was obvious that compression wasn't required at all.

My point?

EQ is a dynamics processor, in perceptual terms.

Filter off some top, some attack will go with it.

Boost some top, some attack will come up with it.

Or from another perspective, if your mic hypes the top, it hypes the dynamics too.

Ribbons anyone?
.........they take EQ 'SO WELL'.....I wonder why.....

Andy
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compasspnt

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2005, 01:11:00 PM »

Good thought Andy.

If you stop to think about it, most processes in audio are merely differing versions of volume control.  EQ (in over-simplified terms) is just adding or subtracting volume to or from a specific band limited area.  Compression (also in over-simplified terms) is just reducing the volume of certain louder-than-desired sounds, making the volume of quieter sounds appear louder.  And so on...
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Jack Schitt

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2005, 03:24:40 PM »

andy_simpson wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 12:45

I was tracking a drumkit the other day and come mix-time, we all felt like the drums were way too 'spiky' - too dynamic - wouldn't 'sit down'.

I was about to reach for the compression when I decided to just roll off with a shelf at around 2k.....et voila....the drums sat right down and sounded very natural. The dynamics sounded perfect and it was obvious that compression wasn't required at all.

My point?

EQ is a dynamics processor, in perceptual terms.

Filter off some top, some attack will go with it.

Boost some top, some attack will come up with it.

Or from another perspective, if your mic hypes the top, it hypes the dynamics too.

Ribbons anyone?
.........they take EQ 'SO WELL'.....I wonder why.....

Andy



I would disagree. EQ problems can cause a track to not sit in the mix properly but its not a dynamics issue. When a frequncy jumps out in a bad way you flinch just the same as with an out of control volume spike but the causes and cures are not the same.
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Phil

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2005, 07:24:16 PM »

Denny W. wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 12:24

I would disagree. EQ problems can cause a track to not sit in the mix properly but its not a dynamics issue. When a frequncy jumps out in a bad way you flinch just the same as with an out of control volume spike but the causes and cures are not the same.
Denny, re-read Terry's post. A 'jumping out' frequency is a volume spike, and you can turn it down with an equalizer -- because an equalizer is a bandwidth specific volume (or gain) control. A simplification, to be sure, but that's pretty much Knob Twisting 101, so let's not get tangled in a semantic trap here.
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Phil Nelson

Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2005, 07:52:00 PM »

In certain cases, even a simple high pass at say 50 or 80Hz can be enough to affect the dynamics of the track so that it can be brought up higher in the mix. Low frequencies take up a lot of real estate, energy wise.

Best,
Eric
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Jack Schitt

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2005, 08:28:16 PM »

Phil wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 19:24

Denny W. wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 12:24

I would disagree. EQ problems can cause a track to not sit in the mix properly but its not a dynamics issue. When a frequncy jumps out in a bad way you flinch just the same as with an out of control volume spike but the causes and cures are not the same.
Denny, re-read Terry's post. A 'jumping out' frequency is a volume spike, and you can turn it down with an equalizer -- because an equalizer is a bandwidth specific volume (or gain) control. A simplification, to be sure, but that's pretty much Knob Twisting 101, so let's not get tangled in a semantic trap here.


I understand what your saying. But, it seems by taking that line of thought to its conclusion, an EQ and compressor are one in the same. A compressor closes the gap from the lowest db reading and the highest thus reducing dynamic range. You can cut a given frequency all you want but at most you are lowering the absolute output level of the source material. I don't see where you have changed the overall dynamic range any. The part may fit better in the mix but you haven't changed the dynamic range, just the balance  of frequencies.
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Phil

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2005, 01:04:51 AM »

Denny W. wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 17:28

Phil wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 19:24

Denny W. wrote on Fri, 30 September 2005 12:24

I would disagree. EQ problems can cause a track to not sit in the mix properly but its not a dynamics issue. When a frequncy jumps out in a bad way you flinch just the same as with an out of control volume spike but the causes and cures are not the same.
Denny, re-read Terry's post. A 'jumping out' frequency is a volume spike, and you can turn it down with an equalizer -- because an equalizer is a bandwidth specific volume (or gain) control. A simplification, to be sure, but that's pretty much Knob Twisting 101, so let's not get tangled in a semantic trap here.


I understand what your saying. But, it seems by taking that line of thought to its conclusion, an EQ and compressor are one in the same. A compressor closes the gap from the lowest db reading and the highest thus reducing dynamic range.
Denny, a compressor is not frequency specific (unless it's a de-esser); an equalizer is frequency specific. Boost or cut. Add gain, or take it away.
Quote:

 You can cut a given frequency all you want but at most you are lowering the absolute output level of the source material. I don't see where you have changed the overall dynamic range any. The part may fit better in the mix but you haven't changed the dynamic range, just the balance  of frequencies.

Think about what you've said. If you reduce a specific band of frequencies, without affecting other parts of the frequency spectrum, you have most certainly reduced the dynamic range if excessively loud program material is in the specific selected band. If you have a troublesome sound at, say, 2khz that is 6db above the average level of the track, and you introduce a 6db cut at 2khz, then you have reduced the dynamic range by 6db. Conversely, if you applied a 6db boost at 2khz, you have increased the dynamic range by 6db because the boost is added to what you already had. No way does it resemble compression, which is a variable gain amplifying device.

To test it, play a mix of a song, and set your playback level peaking at a normal 0VU. Now, grab the mid-range peaking eq set at 2k and boost it by about 10db. You should be driving the VU meter slam up against the peg -- and then some. Reduce the fader until you're back at 0VU. The amount of overall gain reduction you have subtracted is the amount of dynamic range increase due to the eq boost you have added.
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Phil Nelson

Jack Schitt

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2005, 08:58:36 AM »

Quote:

Think about what you've said. If you reduce a specific band of frequencies, without affecting other parts of the frequency spectrum, you have most certainly reduced the dynamic range if excessively loud program material is in the specific selected band. If you have a troublesome sound at, say, 2khz that is 6db above the average level of the track, and you introduce a 6db cut at 2khz, then you have reduced the dynamic range by 6db. Conversely, if you applied a 6db boost at 2khz, you have increased the dynamic range by 6db because the boost is added to what you already had. No way does it resemble compression, which is a variable gain amplifying device.

To test it, play a mix of a song, and set your playback level peaking at a normal 0VU. Now, grab the mid-range peaking eq set at 2k and boost it by about 10db. You should be driving the VU meter slam up against the peg -- and then some. Reduce the fader until you're back at 0VU. The amount of overall gain reduction you have subtracted is the amount of dynamic range increase due to the eq boost you have added.



I agree that if you do what you have suggested in your example you will see the volume of the track move as you suggested. That is just adding and subtracting gain, albeit frequency specific. I'm not seeing how dynamic range is being affected. The range between the loudest and softest points hasn't changed, its just been slid up or down a few db. You have changed the frequency balance but in terms of gain and dynamic range, I can't see where its any different than pushing up the fader.

Quote:


Think about what you've said. If you reduce a specific band of frequencies, without affecting other parts of the frequency spectrum, you have most certainly reduced the dynamic range if excessively loud program material is in the specific selected band. If you have a troublesome sound at, say, 2khz that is 6db above the average level of the track, and you introduce a 6db cut at 2khz, then you have reduced the dynamic range by 6db.


But you haven't just reduced the really loud parts at 2k. You have also reduced the aspects of the source material at 2k that weren't 6db above average haven't you? In this example say the snare had an issue but the kick didn't. By reducing 2k by 6db you have reduced both. The difference between the 2 hasn't changed, you've just lowered them both by 6db. The dynamic range hasn't changed, only the gain structure. It may fit the track better because the snare is now right and the lowered level of material @ 2k on the kick wasn't missed but he dynamic range hasn't changed. The difference between the hottest part and the lowest is still the same. Both have just been reduced by 6db

I'm not trying to be argumentative. If there is some technical or scientific point I am not understanding I am more than will to admit ignorance. But to the best of my knowledge, when you reduce a frequency by x amount you reduce everything at that frequency by that amount. For it to reduce dynamic range it would have to reduce only the really loud parts at that particular frequency and leave the softer parts untouched. A multiband compressor could pull that off but an EQ can't.
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maxdimario

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2005, 09:04:59 AM »

The funny thing is that spikey-ness often has little to do with the frequency response of the various electronics, it's the way the signal path reacts to 'sharp' signals, or transients.

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$a1Ty

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2005, 09:33:53 AM »

really if you think about it eq is all 3 effects groups and at the same time its neither, its in its own special world
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Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2005, 09:50:00 AM »

It is possible to see it all as one thing, with regards to dynamic EQ, transient modifiers, de-essers, filtered key compression and expansion, multiband dynamics processing.

Clearly, there are different approaches involved here, but they are all getting at the same thing, which is manipulation of frequency specific amplitudes in the time domain.

As far as static EQ, or self keyed compression, one can set an EQ to alter the dynamics, one can set a compressor to change the frequencies... To use the words of BK, this is what "seperates the men from the boys" and of course, the women from the girls.

Best Regards,
Eric
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Eric Bridenbaker

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2005, 10:29:01 AM »

Denny, if this helps, consider something like a guitar track that sounds good, but has the occasional low end spike, which jumps up about 3db on a peak meter, and sometimes higher on a VU. Vocal tracks can also contain these low end plosives. Taking out some bottom tames these, and the meters are no longer spiking (which is in part why the track can be raised in the mix).

The overall dynamic range of the track has changed. I see your point about the fact that the low end frequencies, while reduced in level may still have the same dynamic content (relative to themselves), but it's the overall response that really counts.

The same technique applies when mastering engineers filter out some of the subs, to make the whole mix tighter and louder.

In practice, the phase response is usually changed when eq is used, and this in itself is can be enough to change the overall dynamic response as the frequency interaction as a whole has been altered. Linear phase eq's also exibit slight timing anomolies, but behave in a manner more in line with what you are saying.


Best Regards,
Eric
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2005, 11:52:59 AM »

From what I've been reading in another thread ... if you record in digital, it will quantize the transients and you'll never have to EQ or compress, and the sample rate won't accomodate the high frequencies and will filter them out anyway.

Rolling Eyes
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timrob

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2005, 12:45:14 PM »

Eric Bridenbaker wrote on Sat, 01 October 2005 09:29

Denny, if this helps, consider something like a guitar track that sounds good, but has the occasional low end spike, which jumps up about 3db on a peak meter, and sometimes higher on a VU. Vocal tracks can also contain these low end plosives. Taking out some bottom tames these, and the meters are no longer spiking (which is in part why the track can be raised in the mix).

The overall dynamic range of the track has changed. I see your point about the fact that the low end frequencies, while reduced in level may still have the same dynamic content (relative to themselves), but it's the overall response that really counts.

The same technique applies when mastering engineers filter out some of the subs, to make the whole mix tighter and louder.

In practice, the phase response is usually changed when eq is used, and this in itself is can be enough to change the overall dynamic response as the frequency interaction as a whole has been altered. Linear phase eq's also exibit slight timing anomolies, but behave in a manner more in line with what you are saying.


Best Regards,
Eric



Hmmm...Haven't you still only affected gain vs frequency? You may have lowered the gain of the low end and raised the overall gain to use up available headroom. I can see where if you have a track that has some serious low end issues(not at all uncommon) that this does effectively alter the overall dynamic range at least in terms of peak gain. Gonna have to let that one stew for a while.
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Phil

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Re: Equalisation and its effect on the perception of dynamics.....
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2005, 02:40:15 PM »

Perhaps I lack the skills to express myself clearly, but, whether I do or not, I'm going to wish you all well, and let the conversation continue without me. Honestly, I tire quickly of these discussions simply because they never seem to accomplish anything. It may be the difference in our individual makeup -- some understand instinctively, some understand on an intellectual level, and maybe that makes internet communication more difficult.

And J.J. - careful with that "D" word. It makes threads go on for 31 pages, you know.

I'm off to eat junk food, drink beverages, and watch The Speed Channel.
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