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[TotalSonic]

Anyone else here read the article on David Torn in this month's TapeOp?

There was a funny part in it where he was relating some famous (unnamed) mastering engineer yelling at him over the phone while he was in front of his A&R guy.  The reason?  Because the ME was trying to piece together a CD with tracks sent in from 7 different producers (of which David was one).  This of course after David relates how he had put this mix through peak limiting, eq on the 2 buss, and sent it through a 2 buss compressor not once but twice before sending it on to the ME.  After relating earlier in the article how he has worked to overcome losing hearing in one of his ears, and how he really doesn't like his Genelec monitors in his box shaped rooms because he feels they are pretty inaccurate.  

But - he stated he couldn't understatnd the ME's beef at all as none of the peak levels on his track went above -0.5dBFs (althouh he does state that the average level was pretty high) and said the wav forms "looked ok" - and that everyone he played the mixes to (including the A&R guy) thought they sounded great.  He was wondering why the ME couldn't just match everything to his track instead of giving him a hassle in front of the label people.  And he finished by saying that he would never use that particular ME in the future.

Good lesson to all of us: never yell or get upset at a client if you want to retain their business in the future!  Diplomacy and tact are very important skills.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bblackwood]

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:12

Good lesson to all of us: never yell or get upset at a client if you want to retain their business in the future!

Is this really a lesson anyone needs to be taught?

That mastering engineer was obviously a moron.

[TotalSonic]

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 01:31

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:12 Good lesson to all of us: never yell or get upset at a client if you want to retain their business in the future! Is this really a lesson anyone needs to be taught? That mastering engineer was obviously a moron.

There's also a good lesson for this board in this though.  How many times have people here jumped down the throat of a high profile ME for a crushed or distorted track - when in fact it might the fault might be from the mixer - as in this example?  I definitely think this ME was way out of line from the way David Torn (who I happen to think is truly an amazing musician) described it - but maybe the ME in question was having a bad day and getting this one pre-crushed track just put him over the edge.

Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate" - and that yelling at a mixer is simply not the way to ever go about things.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[bblackwood]

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 20:15

How many times have people here jumped down the throat of a high profile ME for a crushed or distorted track - when in fact it might the fault might be from the mixer - as in this example?

Hey, I resemble that remark. Of course, I base it on a history of work, not one example...

Quote:

Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate"

I think it's both, depending on the client.

Quote:

and that yelling at a mixer is simply not the way to ever go about things.

I cannot think of any situation where yelling at someone is going to help the mastering session...

[dcollins]

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:15

Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate"

Amen to that!

DC

[bblackwood]

dcollins wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 21:21

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 18:15 Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate" Amen to that! DC

So, you never try to educate a 'newbie' or someone who is uninformed?

If the acoustic musician working on his first record wants it louder than Green Day you just give him a 'yessir' and get to work?

I disagree. I'm not going to try to 'educate' Mike Shipley, but obviously we serve the clients and some education, specifically for the newer people (and only when needed or obvious), is helpful, imo and ime...

[Bob Boyd]

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 20:15

Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate" Best regards, Steve Berson

While our job is definitely a service oriented job, I can't completely agree with that comment.  I've had too many instances where a client might ask for something that shouldn't be done to a track (of course over limiting always comes to mind).  After a simple explanation or demonstration if it's an attended session, they are often willing to take my advice.  It's all in how you handle your clients.  Compromise and knowing how to balance it is a huge part of this job.

[TotalSonic]

Bob Boyd wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 03:32

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 20:15 Anyway - I feel that our job is to serve - and not to "educate" Best regards, Steve Berson While our job is definitely a service oriented job, I can't completely agree with that comment.  I've had too many instances where a client might ask for something that shouldn't be done to a track (of course over limiting always comes to mind).  After a simple explanation or demonstration if it's an attended session, they are often willing to take my advice.  It's all in how you handle your clients.  Compromise and knowing how to balance it is a huge part of this job.

Very good points!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Ronny]

1. I'd have to hear both sides before I threw large stones.

2. Anyone that thinks that keeping peak levels down to -.5dB has anything to do with not ruining a song by pancaking it, has no business setting perceived levels and than sending it on to an ME. Looking at waveforms can be very misleading. Short songs in full view will appear to have much better dynamics than a song twice as long in full view, even if the short tune has much higher RMS. Saying the waveform looked ok, to me, is a red flag on the producer.

3. If the ME was yelling and truly being an asshole, that's not professional. The proper way would have been to ask him for a  remix without the hypercompression, but are we going to bitch about the high profilers defaulting to stun, than bitch about it when one of them protests to the client for requiring a more dynamic mix on a song that obviously stuck out like a sore thumb and needed to be dynamic enough to be worked in to fit with the other tunes.

4. If a remix request got an argument, before I'd compromise all of the other dynamic tracks by ruining them to match the song in question, I would work on all of the dynamic songs in my normal manner, than attenuate the hot song by ear until it matched the perceived level of the dynamic songs. The hot song would likely  now be peaking closer to -3dB to -5dB than -.5dB. I've been into the exact same situation and that's the best solution that I have found. I'd explain it to the producer of the 7th song in a calm manner and restate that a remix without heavy limiting prior to the mastering grind, is the best option, when he heard the ref.

[Gold]

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 22:15

I cannot think of any situation where yelling at someone is going to help the mastering session...

What if they're deaf?

[Ronny]

Gold wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 23:05

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 22:15 I cannot think of any situation where yelling at someone is going to help the mastering session... What if they're deaf?

Even less point.

[dcollins]

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 19:31

So, you never try to educate a 'newbie' or someone who is uninformed? If the acoustic musician working on his first record wants it louder than Green Day you just give him a 'yessir' and get to work?

Dude, I can get his guitar/vocal record louder than Green Day.  Can't you?

I guess my point is that "education" is but a small part, and in most cases the client actually knows what he wants.

Advice?  I've got it.  You know how shy and retiring I am.

Not all want to be educated, anyway...............

DC

[TotalSonic]

dcollins wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 05:15

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 19:31 If the acoustic musician working on his first record wants it louder than Green Day you just give him a 'yessir' and get to work? Dude, I can get his guitar/vocal record louder than Green Day.  Can't you?

Sure I can.  But can you get him louder than Vlado got Johnny Cash is the real question!


Best regards,
Steve Berson

[jackthebear]

My experience has been that most newbies feel daunted by the whole mastering thang and while they may ask some questions, they don't pay for a seminar.......but rather to kick back and allow someone else do the job they pay for.

I find it interesting one question I get asked a lot from clients irrespective of their experience is "can I come attend the session". They have been used to so many MEs telling them that it would be better / cheaper if the session was unattended.

I understand why MEs do it but I have no problem if people sit in and ask questions. The better informed my client is about what can and can't be achieved in mastering.....the better mixes he will deliver.....and that will ultimately result in a better rekkid.

Cheers,

[Bob Boyd]

jackthebear wrote on Tue, 27 September 2005 23:50

I understand why MEs do it but I have no problem if people sit in and ask questions. The better informed my client is about what can and can't be achieved in mastering.....the better mixes he will deliver.....and that will ultimately result in a better rekkid. Cheers,

I second that!  Attended sessions can have their drawbacks but, as Tony mentioned, occasionally attending allows the client to better understand why something can't be done (or only done to an extent).

I think in some cases it can be good for the client and/or mix engineer to hear their mixes on a revealing monitoring system too.  That alone can definitely affect their choices on the next go around.