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[j.hall]

so, now that the mix room is in fairly heavy use, i've had a lot of "alone" time with my console.  the mods i've done have been night and day and i'm loving them.  but i'm still not completely happy with the desk.

if i push the desk too hard the low end gets real mushy real quick.  but the 2 mix seems to enjoy getting pushed fairly hard, at least in the mids and highs.

so my internal debate has been......

1.  should i build a new PSU for this desk that can source more current and cleaner power and see what that does for me?

2.  should i explore more mods to the individual channels?

3.  should i just deal with this as it is (since my clients are loving the mixes i'm doing) and not sink more money into it, and just save up cash for a better desk?

try to place yourself in my position, money is not flowing in.  

what would you do.  you can't combine any of the 3 solutions.

BTW, the need for some premium channels of compression is great!!!  that needs to part of your decision.

[Fibes]

Live with the AMEK, find its swing and one day buy a Mackie.

[NelsonL]

Fibes wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 07:31

Live with the AMEK, find its swing and one day buy a Mackie.

Ouch.

What's the current work-around, make-up gain on the 2 buss comp?

From what I know about your priorities (e.g. automation)the jump to the next level console is pretty steep. Not too mention you've got some space limitations right?

Just guessing, but I imagine the power supply is gonna be hit or miss. If somebody's done it to great effect, that'd be good to know-- I'm sure there's some techs who can tell you.

As for channel mods, those will add up fast I suspect. Might be hard to recoup at resale unless your buyer is really hip to the level of improvement.

At least with a stellar two buss comp you're unlikely to regret the purchase when you do finally get your next console.

[lord]

Maybe find some other way to get the effects you're getting from pushing the 2-mix, and run the desk at sane levels.

A new power supply is a good investment, but I'm skeptical it'll get you all the way you want to go.

[j.hall]

this is all similar to my thinking.

the mods to each channel will be pretty cheap and i can do the work myself.  it's paying Fred Forssell to do the design work, which actually isn't that much.

Fred has already told me that if i hire him, he'll want a new PSU to source more current to the console......

the issue isn't really about how hard to hit the 2 mix.....it's about the console getting a little soft and smeary on the individual channels when they get pushed to hard.  it's a very fine balancing act on all the faders as they mix down to the 2mix.

[webrec]

Modifying the power supply seems like it would be the best thing. Getting any sort of analog mixer with automation that is going to be better sounding is going to cost lotsa $$$$. I think you answered the question yourself.

[webrec]

j.hall wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 15:08

try to place yourself in my position, money is not flowing in.   BTW, the need for some premium channels of compression is great!!!  that needs to part of your decision.

Thats why you need to sell me your evil twin.  Sorry couldn't resist.

-webrec

[j.hall]

evil twin stays with me.  you can rent it from me though....

the problem with a new PSU is it will cost around 1.5k if i build it myself, and honestly i don't have time to deal with it, nor do i want to be solely responsible for it.  so i'm estimating a new PSU to be around 2.2k to have my tech build and tweak out.

if i mod every channel in the desk i can do that slowly, but if i go with fred forssell (which i probably won't do the mods with out his design) i have to have the PSU in order to source enough current for the components he wants to use.

it's sort of a double edged sword.

the real question is.....how long will it take me to be able to afford a lease on an API legacy or an SSL?  i'll have to be doing a lot bigger budget records then i am now!!!!!!!!!!!

[webrec]

Maybe you should hold out for when your making enough money that you can lease a bigger console. I just started to think.....those mods are expensive. The resale value of modded amek big, however nice it sounds, probably isn't going to bring in the type of money you would want to get.


-webrec

[drumsound]

I think Webrec is on to something concerning getting your money out of the mods.  You need to think in terms of use not of resale.  I.E. the mods make your mixes better, which gets you more work, which gets you more money.  The mods will not add much to the resale of the console IMHO.

Most techs I know view PSU as a very important part of any piece of audio gear.  When I had my 3M rebuilt, hell even before the rebuild, the tech asked which PSU I had.  When I asked why he told me of the importance of a good PSU.  He then said if it was the old style 3M his suggestion was to throw it away.  I was lucky and had the second generation PSU and he beefed it up (along with the channels etc...).

Upgrade the PSU, make some money, pay Forsell, make more money, start mods etc, etc...

[TheViking]

drumsound wrote on Sun, 18 September 2005 00:12

Upgrade the PSU, make some money, pay Forsell, make more money, start mods etc, etc...

...and then you'll have enough cash to build a bigger room so you can fit an API Legacy in there.   RIght J?  

[Ryan Leigh Patterson]

Tricky problem....

A new "used" board will cost you, plus all of the other stuff that comes with buying a used board...I'm thinking Trident 80c  with automation, but it's not an SSL or API Legacy.  I'm not sure how you feel about Neotek...the Elite is supposed to sound great, and has automation, and it's not a huge $$  compared to your other options, but it's also not an API.

What is the opportunity cost of tweaking your Big vs buying a new board?  

I also understand the no money coming in problem!

I think I'd sit on the Big and wait until you can get what you want.  How much more money is the modded Amek really going make you?  Will having an SSL or API make you more $, if so then maybe getting one sooner is better.

[j.hall]

in my particular situation, a big name desk won't bring in work per se.

people hire me because of me.  my room is merely a means to an end.  i need it to mix records as best as i can.  the room itself sounds great, it's not outstanding, but it's solid, and people aren't complaining.  

buying a neotek or trident will cost around 10k - 20k i'm guessing, based on a little market research.  modding my big will probably cost me 5k or less.  if i do all the channels myself it could be as cheap as 3.5k

money is coming in, it just goes to my family's bills and putting food on the table.

bottom line here is that i want to increase the quality of the room.  i'm starting to feel that i'm pushing the gear i have to it's limit and i'm still wanting more.  personally, that's not a good position to be in.....i want the gear and my room to always be ahead of me, so as i grow, i'm not ever fighting the gear or acoustics.

the reason i'm focused on the console at the moment, is that everything i do goes through it.  all the outboard, PT, everything goes through that desk.  so technically, if it's not doing what i want, then all the primo gear in the world won't help me.

[floodstage]

j.hall wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 10:53

i'm starting to feel that i'm pushing the gear i have to it's limit and i'm still wanting more.

hahahaha!  

(Not laughing at you, laughing with you.  I feel your pain!)


You will always want more, unless you stop caring!


If it was me, I'd mod 2 channels and see if that does what you're looking for.  (Modding 2 channels is cheaper than the power supply isn't it?)

If it works, do the rest of the channels.  Then get the poswer supply.  

(But that's just me and I use way worse gear than you so apply truckload of grains of salt to said advice)

[j.hall]

the problem there is that Fred told me he would be specifying components that draw more current.  so i could get away with one or two channel of mods.  but the whole console would not be possible with out a new PSU that sourced more current for the new components.

maybe a good starting point is to just get Fred hired and get his mods on paper and speced out.  then i can move from there.

[floodstage]

Sounds like you've figured out what you're going to do.

The idea behind doing one or 2 channels was to see if the difference is significant and positive.  If it wasn't, then you could stop there.

The Neotek / Trident boards that are 10-20 don't have automation do they?  Wasn't that why you got the Big?  Replacing that puppy with something better ain't gonna be cheap.

(p.s.  I'll trade you my board for yours anyday!!!)

[Norwood]

Quote:

If it was me, I'd mod 2 channels and see if that does what you're looking for.  (Modding 2 channels is cheaper than the power supply isn't it?) If it works, do the rest of the channels.  Then get the poswer supply.

 


The problem with your suggestion is that these mods will have a MUCH greater cumulative effect than individual.  It could sound marginal or even insignificant on 2 channels but on 48, amazing.  Gestalt.

[Jules]

What desk is it?

Does it use Virtual dynamic's? & the Super True VCA automation?

Does it have those vca on/off buttons near the pan pots?

That messes with the sound quite a lot as I understand it..

I worked on a Amek Hendrix for about 2 years..

That wasn't nearly as punchy as the MCI 500 the studio tossed out (mind you that was falling to bits and far too short on channels)

I always avoided the VCA path when tracking on the Amek.

[j.hall]

it's an Amek Big

i had all the VCAs swapped out and that made a HUGE difference.  i do not have a choice in putting the VCA in or out of the audio path, it's in all the time.  since the VCA change, i don't really have much issue with them.

i don't have virtual dynamics fitted in this console, but i do have super true automation and i use it quite a bit.

[Invisible Member]

j.hall wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 07:08

3.  should i just deal with this as it is (since my clients are loving the mixes i'm doing) and not sink more money into it, and just save up cash for a better desk?

Im sort of in the same postion with the RAMSA I have. But I decided to just keep saving because I don't want to explore dumping money into a risk item. Risk meaning there are no guarantees that when your all done that you will be satified even if there is an improvment. Since you have upgraded your monitors an other parts of the chain you should probably follow that same path with the console. I know I get tempted because of my impatience to go replace the RAMSA ASAP but I know I'll regret that decision if I'm too hasty. One thing I have considered is racking a few different types of channel as console substitutions. I even pondered the Idea of buying a 12 channel mixer for drums, another 8 channel mixer for guitars etc... Yikes what a summing nightmare!

Since what you have works (good enuff) and your cash flow is limited is it worth the risk?

What do you want in the end? A clean characterless console where you rely on racked strips for color, or a classic console with character to minimize lunchboxes?

I always try to figure out a long term goal and then plan accordingly within reason.  Another thing is took look at Amek Big resale values.


Peace,
Dennis

[j.hall]

i have booked Fred Forssell to do signal path consulting on the channels and to spec out a new power supply.

he is very busy and won't get to my project until 2006 but i'm not in a huge hurry.  i want the designs to be amazing.

i honestly think this will be a much cheaper solution then buying an API legacy+

not that i expect that sound....but i feel that with Fred's skills i can get a really rocking console.