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Author Topic: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot  (Read 58664 times)

Barry Hufker

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2005, 09:51:37 am »

Ivan,

I agree with all you have said.  I too stopped going to church.  It was killing me emotionally and spiritually to be the only liberal (truly the only one) in a sea of Republicans.

When someone says they are born again, I also am wary until I've learned enough one way or the other.  The word "Gospel" is a "contraction" of "Gut Spiel" (good news).  These days the Gospel isn't good news.  It isn't the thing in which people rejoice.  It is the thing causing them to live in fear.

As I drove to work today I was reminded of the movie, The Usual Suspects.  Kaiser Soze says, "the greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing people he doesn't exist."  I would say the greatest trick he has ever played in the U.S. is convincing conservative Christians they must spend time, money, energy on reclaiming a "Christian country" rather than actually saving souls by feeding the poor, sheltering the homeless, working for justice for all people.

Frankly, I don't know how we change things.  Conservatives tend to be business people and so tend to have a lot of money.  It was  conservative money that got Clinton impeached.  And it's funny how all Clinton had was a stained dress, but Bush has got blood-stained hands from lying to start a war.  I think that certainly calls for impeachment, but it will be hard to do because there is too much money and power against us.

All I can do is to keep yelling to anyone who'll listen to what I believe to be the truth.  It is my desire that my message is one of hope.

Barry
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Fig

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2005, 02:55:02 pm »

****** wrote on Fri, 26 August 2005 13:44

Q: “I found some ground into the indian rug in the control room - still can't get it out, any suggestions?”


Dear Thom,

The correct way to deal with this is to use a cube or block of ice. You have to apply the ice until the gum is completely frozen solid. It can then be relatively easily removed cleanly in one piece. Clean the area with a brush or the serrated edge of a knife and some liquid cleaner mixed with water to finish off.



Peter, oh Peter,

Welcome back.  I hope you are feeling better, and if not - a speedy recovery, then.

I am saddened I had to leave the correct forum just to find your reply.  But alas, I found it.  (Thanks Tik for quoting Peter in the correct forum - I knew there was more info somewhere).

I will try your solution tonight and report back.  Thank you.

Regarding the Almighty, music is one of His greatest gifts to us monkeys with laptops.  Y'all gotta remember, at a certain time in history, praising Him with music was the only music there was!

So mind your manners.  Respect your elders.

Thanks Peter.

Your friend,

Thom "Fig" Fiegle


(quick edit for spelling)
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PP

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2005, 03:03:42 pm »

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PP

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2005, 03:13:59 pm »

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VagrantSt

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2005, 04:00:57 pm »

Hi ***** I truly appreciate your agile and thoughtful response to my admittedly snarky post. I guess I was asking in a flippant sort of way if and at what point you would consider any passages of the Bible not intended for literal interpretation. I may be participating on a more crass level than the spiritual quality of this thread is aspiring too. If I come to that conclusion after a bit of reflection I'll respectfully bow out and just listen and learn. I was a little fired up to log onto my fave audio forum after an intense 11 hr mixing day preceded by 4 hrs of sleep, winding down my adrenaline rush and find full on christian sermonizing. Religion, Audio and Politics are three of my favorite subjects, but it is a volatile mix. As you can see by my post count I'm a new contributor (long time lurker) so I have a bit to learn about netiquette. So, excuses are like assholes, and other cliches     Take care...Michael
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t(h)ik

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2005, 04:53:08 pm »

VagrantSt wrote on Mon, 29 August 2005 22:00

Hi ***** I truly appreciate your agile and thoughtful response to my admittedly snarky post. I guess I was asking in a flippant sort of way if and at what point you would consider any passages of the Bible not intended for literal interpretation. I may be participating on a more crass level than the spiritual quality of this thread is aspiring too. If I come to that conclusion after a bit of reflection I'll respectfully bow out and just listen and learn. I was a little fired up to log onto my fave audio forum after an intense 11 hr mixing day preceded by 4 hrs of sleep, winding down my adrenaline rush and find full on christian sermonizing. Religion, Audio and Politics are three of my favorite subjects, but it is a volatile mix. As you can see by my post count I'm a new contributor (long time lurker) so I have a bit to learn about netiquette. So, excuses are like assholes, and other cliches     Take care...Michael


Wow
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2005, 06:26:38 pm »

Peter,

If you remember, Christ is an offense to some and foolishness to others.  That is the basic nature of the world.  Any place you can mention any hair-brain philosophy or trendy religion and it's fine.  Mention Christ and people are turned off, frightened or angry.  That is part of the proof that Christ is Christ.

But Christ never came to "clean up" the web or the world.  He came to preach the good news of salvation, to be rejected by his own people (which includes you and me as sinners) and to offer himself as an atonement for all sin.

Even in his own life Christ never punished the blasphemous.  He never raided brothels, he never stopped abortions.  He had one message  - salvation.

I am not offended by the language or ideas here.  This is how the world works and I know I am in the world, just not *of* the world.  Christ never separated himself from the world.  Paraphrasing, he said, "after all who needs a doctor but the sick?"  Christ didn't sit and wonder why he wasn't accepted and he didn't bemoan the state of the world.  He just kept saying one thing -- Mercy and Hope.

And it does no good to mention Old Testament laws and punishments.  Christ fulfilled all those and so we are free from them.  All the law has ever done is act as a mirror to reveal sin.  From the beginning when there was only one law -- don't eat from the tree; to when there was no law -- the time between the flood and the establishment of government; to the time when there were 10 laws -- the Commandments; to the time when all laws were fulfilled -- Christ's resurrection.  No law has ever brought about salvation.  So why spout laws instead of the Good News?  Christ didn't spout law but spoke of Mercy and Hope.

Laws don't matter.  People don't go to hell because they broke a law.  The unsaved are doomed because of one thing -- the refusal to accept the gift of salvation that would save them from doom.

So, now there is no law for saved or unsaved.  There is sin and salvation.  The last commandment was to "love one another as I have loved you." and the last commission was to go through out the world preaching the Good News.

All I tend to see from my fellow Christians is condemnation of others, whining, smug self-righteousness and bullying.  Where is Christ in *any* of this?

Barry

 

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George_

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2005, 11:12:49 pm »

Quote:

Mention Christ and people are turned off, frightened or angry. That is part of the proof that Christ is Christ.


mention christ and I will tell you to leave my location;) shure, I hate people telling you all the time that christ blah and christ blahblah.. normally they mention christ if they did something bad and uuuups.. no problem: he died on the cross for our sins.. cool..

in my opinion christ was one of 1000's of preachers at this time. maybe he was a good showmaster (like manson is) and that's why he made his way up to heaven.. or to be written in the holy book.

my theorie: if christ would be able to see what people do and don't  in the name of christ he would turn not only 360
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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2005, 12:21:43 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Mon, 29 August 2005 17:26

Peter,

If you remember, Christ is an offense to some and foolishness to others.  That is the basic nature of the world.  Any place you can mention any hair-brain philosophy or trendy religion and it's fine.  Mention Christ and people are turned off, frightened or angry.  That is part of the proof that Christ is Christ.

But Christ never came to "clean up" the web or the world.  He came to preach the good news of salvation, to be rejected by his own people (which includes you and me as sinners) and to offer himself as an atonement for all sin.

Even in his own life Christ never punished the blasphemous.  He never raided brothels, he never stopped abortions.  He had one message  - salvation.

I am not offended by the language or ideas here.  This is how the world works and I know I am in the world, just not *of* the world.  Christ never separated himself from the world.  Paraphrasing, he said, "after all who needs a doctor but the sick?"  Christ didn't sit and wonder why he wasn't accepted and he didn't bemoan the state of the world.  He just kept saying one thing -- Mercy and Hope.

And it does no good to mention Old Testament laws and punishments.  Christ fulfilled all those and so we are free from them.  All the law has ever done is act as a mirror to reveal sin.  From the beginning when there was only one law -- don't eat from the tree; to when there was no law -- the time between the flood and the establishment of government; to the time when there were 10 laws -- the Commandments; to the time when all laws were fulfilled -- Christ's resurrection.  No law has ever brought about salvation.  So why spout laws instead of the Good News?  Christ didn't spout law but spoke of Mercy and Hope.

Laws don't matter.  People don't go to hell because they broke a law.  The unsaved are doomed because of one thing -- the refusal to accept the gift of salvation that would save them from doom.

So, now there is no law for saved or unsaved.  There is sin and salvation.  The last commandment was to "love one another as I have loved you." and the last commission was to go through out the world preaching the Good News.

All I tend to see from my fellow Christians is condemnation of others, whining, smug self-righteousness and bullying.  Where is Christ in *any* of this?

Barry

 




I think this is very well stated and I admit that I was rude,and I snapped earlier today.. For this, I owe P. and who ever else I might have offended,an apology.

It doesn't bother me when sane people want to talk about their faith. I'm on the fence about where this all started and while I have no doubt that Jesus was an enlightened cat, and had many many profoundly beautiful things to say, I'm not so sure he's any more the son of god than I am.

There are any number of things written in the Bible that clearly are not meant to be taken literally and this is where MOST folks who call them selves Christians, make a huge mistake.

The other thing that I notice about MOST of these folks is they without cause,and without doubt, feel they tower above who they consider to be "nonbelievers",no matter how one might live their life.

We have four or five Bibles around the house and I pick one up here and there because there can be no argument that it is an incredible read and has shaped the hearts of many people over the years. It's not at all clear to me that this shaping has always been a good thing and I am very very afraid for the world at this point in history because, quite frankly, what comes from the mouths of the people most commonly known as the "Christian community", is pure evil. We now have in this country of {ours?} national leaders who believe that people who don't share their view regarding God are all going to hell and for this reason, we can just go kill them. They have made this clear over and over again.

The KKK also claimed Christianity as there excuse. For those of you who have deep faith and believe in the word of Christ,I would suggest that it might be time to very very loudly and clearly denounce these mean, damaged people before they get us all killed.

I've had many long wonderful talks with really great people who love Jesus and found this experience to be very fulfilling  and I'm not interested in dismissing the word of Christ but, the religion has been deformed and hacked to bits by people who are only interested in themselves and I just can't stand it anymore.

Just some thoughts I had walking by the i-mac on the way upstairs to edit audio and get these stupid machines locked together...%^&*()!@#$%

Ivan..........
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2005, 12:50:40 am »

WWJJPD?   Twisted Evil

Since we are no longer in th audio forum...
You know, one of the fascinating things about the Bible is how open to interpretation it is.  One of the reasons that there is so much room for interpretation is that there are many contradictions, as well as blatantly mythical accounts, which if taken literally, defy all logic.  Even the literalists, who believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, are plagued by hypocrisy.  They point to Romans II and Leviticus for proof that homosexuality is a sin, yet they ignore the other 98% of the Leviticus Code.  OK, it's not kosher for "man to lie with another man as with a woman", but ignore all that stuff about staying six feet from women on their periods.  

And the idea of giving up the Jewish traditions was the idea of Paul, who never met Jesus.  The leader of the Christ movement before Saul became Paul and hijacked the movement was Peter, Christ's brother. Peter, like Christ, was a Jew, and the agreement he had with Paul (who was not a Jew), was that if Paul were to spread the word of Christ, he must not tell people that they don't need to follow Jewish law.  Paul ended up renegging on his deal.

Another modern (mis)interpretation, when confronted with the hypocrisy of the "culture of life" being in favor of the death penalty, they frequently quote "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."  Well, perhaps they misunderstand that.  Perhaps it means that you if take an eye, you must give one up in return.  Maybe it is a way of making amends, not a prescription for punishment.

I'm a big fan of the Emmet Fox book The Sermon On the Mount.  Fox was castigated for his ideas that stated things like how God could not possibly be an angry or vengeful god, because those are finite human qualities, that humans have assigned to an infinite god.  He made statements like "We are punished for our sins, rather than by our sins."  And the idea that the Kingdom of God is in the here and now, not something to be attained after you die.

I have spent a great deal of time over the years studying the history of the Church, and how certain ideas have evolved over time.  Certain ideas such as the Apocalypse and the Rapture, are notable themes which have morphed, and whose evolution is well documented.  For example, the now popularly held idea that the Rapture will occur before the End of Days, doesn't even exist in Revelations.  The origin of mixing this idea from the book of Daniel, with the themes in Revelations, didn't appear until the 19th century.  Revelations doesn't even include the term "Anti Christ".  The identity of the the author of Revelation is not even known, other than his first name, the location where he lived (Patmos), and the fact that he was a prisoner.

The evolution of the idea of Hell is fascinating.  Notice how Jews don't believe in Hell, but believe in the same Old Testament?  In the original Hebrew and Aramaeic texts, the references are to Hedra, which is actually a geographical location of caves, where the dead were brought.  The mythology of Satan is actually traced more to extra biblical writing, like John Milton's Paradise Lost.

These are just a handful of inconsistencies that Christians are faced with.  I think that it is important for each person to study the Bible with an open mind, and find the message in there that works for them, and can hold logic to all situations.  I have seem too many people have a crisis of faith when life contradicts the narrow precepts of their dogma.  It is for this reason that I believe people should not prostlytize their interpretations.  When Billy Graham goes on Larry King and pronounces that all men who do not accept Christ as their savior are going to go to Hell, it is the height of arrogance.  The idea that any man has better or more exclusive knowledge about the existence of God or of God's will than any other man is nothing other than didactic grandiosity, IMO.  But I could be wrong.  

YMMV.
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George_

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2005, 12:56:25 am »

Quote:

These are just a handful of inconsistencies that Christians are faced with.


that's a problem for jewish too.. because their belief is based on the old testament, there are a lot of incompabilties and they had to invent their own book of reglemenations.. tora..

well.. endless discussions.. Wink
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George Necola

t(h)ik

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2005, 02:31:02 am »

Damn JJ great post.

thought provoking.

I wasn't lucky like these yungin's that come to my studio that have the luxury of being raised as atheists.

When you mention that there is no god....they're like "what? of course not"

I was raised in 'merica.

I don't know how you came to be born again JJ but for me being in America, it was very difficult to become an atheist.

I didn't even know anyone with the attitude like the kids have today.

Where I spent my adolescence, everyone went to church.

I really wanted to believe and the world was not so big.  Looking back I didn't have any access to a single person that was worldly or intelligent.  But lot's of great shooters...but I digress.

It wasn't until I started to study the new testament that I realized that it was....well...kinda suspect.

Traveling the world and seeing other peoples gods was also a great benefit.  It was like....hmmm elephant head, mans body...that's realistic...just like coming back from the dead.


Again, the kidz who are 22 years old here laugh at me when I reveal that I was such a back woods cretin.  But you work with what you have.  In my case it's about a 25 Watt bulb.

Your point about Billy G.  It's the focus of their entire relationship with mankind.  If you do not accept the anglo-saxon looking hippie YOU WILL BURN!

Like you say it's arrogance beyond the pale.

A real christian attitude would be.....

Said in a hick accent...

"Did you accept the hippie as your personal saviour boy?"

"No sir! I accepted him for Bobby Joe.  Now he's goin' to heaven   and I'm a gonna burn for him."

That would be....well...christ-like wouldn't it.

That wouldn't work though because popular people like Britney Spears would be saved millions of times and people that spend all their time in the studio making cables would surely face eternal incineration.



Thanx again for the great post.

Did you write it yourself....

lol

Tik
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CCC

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2005, 05:25:13 am »

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 05:50


Since we are no longer in th audio forum...



Hey, JJB - great post. Maybe you might enjoy "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur. He is a theologian, and I believe also a former man-of-the-cloth. In this book he traces the roots of Christianity and debunks many myths ... interestingly he is a faithful person and a believer in God - but like many people he feels that modern interpretations are really off-the-rails.

Edit; oh yeah - I forgot - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802714498/qid =1125399464/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3252528-5969538?v=glance &s=books&n=507846
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Fig

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2005, 08:42:37 am »

sixtiksix wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 01:31



That wouldn't work though because popular people like Britney Spears would be saved millions of times and people that spend all their time in the studio making cables would surely face eternal incineration.






See, I knew it would come back to audio. Smile

And it also teaches the lesson that Tik needs to learn dem yunginns... live and let live, right?  Leave nothing but footprints, blah-blah.  Maybe they'll listen, perhaps they will remain ignorant.  Let us "nough".

I also cannot deny and wanted to share with y'all how the "loyalties" in this thread are as strong as when we're discussing digital or analog, ITB or Out, compressed two-mix bus or wide open, ribbons, tubes, ICs, etc...  Possibly stronger?

For those keeping score (you ARE keeping score, aren't you?), the gum came right out of the rug using Peter's remedy.  Thank you sir, you are a true gentleman & scholar... in ANY forum Cool    

Warm analog regards,

Fig

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Barry Hufker

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Re: Thoughts from Audio Dudes on God and whatnot
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2005, 08:53:29 am »

Gosh, there is so much in the last few postings.  And all of it worth discussing.

A major, if not *the* major problem with Christians is indeed that they feel superior to others.  I don't know why this should be so.  Christians are sinners like everyone else.  Salvation is a gift from God.  It can not be bought or earned.  All gifts (from anyone) are given to the recipient for no reason other than the giver wants the recipient to be happy.  If the recipient becomes smug because of the gift then all are diminished.

Let me say again, the laws of the Old Testament, and again actually *all* laws *anywhere* at *any time* are only for condemnation.  They don't bring about any kind of "salvation."

I believe if one reads the Bible cover to cover, the meaning is very clear and non-contradictory.  It is a very consistent message -- Man (people) has fallen short of God's standards and will persih horribly without a mediator.  The law can not save. Man can not save himself.  God can not lower his standards so there must be someoene who will pay the price for Man's sins so all who believe in that act can be saved from the punishment.  That mediator has to be fully human (because all sinners are human) and fully God, because only God could pull this off.  So that leads us to Christ.

Christ: please don't confuse the "religion" with the person.  Christianity is used and abused.  Horrible things have been done in the name of God and Christ.  Does God condone these things?  No, but people have free will to choose good or evil.

Salvation through Christ is simply and *only* about this: each person is in peril, Christ wants to have a true and lasting friendship with each person -- and because of his unique position as God and Man, he can save each person from peril.

*Nothing* else matters -- no churches or laws or traditions or words or anything else.  That is the sum of Christianity.

The Apostle Paul:  JJ, the facts are slightly different.  Paul was a Pharisee (a very important and influential Jew).  Believing he was doing God's will, he vowed to kill every Christian he came across.  He did this until God stopped him.  He then spent several years in the desert learning from God and when he returned from the desert, he was named Paul.

Peter and Paul had a hard time getting along.  Peter was still bound up in Jewish traditions and rules, even tho' he knew "better."  Paul you see had learned that all the previous laws and traditions were meaningless because Christ had fulfilled them all and thus they weren't needed.  So Paul kept pushing for people to abandon what were now needless things, but people have a hard time changing.  So, he had to concede somewhat because some people weren't willing to change to such a great extent.

Peter was not Christ's brother, James was.  The writer of Revelation was the Apostle John, who was a prisoner on Patmos.  In fact he mentions himself early on in the book.

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is not a statement of "let's get even."  It is actually a statement of mercy.  Prior to this, punishments under Jewish law tended to be out of proportion to the crime.  So by saying the above, the statement really means, "Let's don't punish the criminal in any manner worse than what was done.  Let's have fairness."

The Rapture is dubious in its origin and there may not be much if anything to support it.

The Apocalypse is mentioned in Revelation -- the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

I believe the Bible to be great literature.  As such some parts are meant to be taken literally and others not.  If one studies the Bible (and not just reads it), it becomes apparent which are which.

Billy Graham: people are people afterall, with all the failings people have.  If one looks at Billy Graham, it soon becomes apparent he is the *only* well-known evangelist who has consistently preached God's word without personal sexual or financial benefit -- in other words no sex or money scandals.

Is he correct about everything? No, he's a guy.  He has extremely conservative, anti-communist politics for instance.  Is he wrong when he says the unsaved are going to hell?  Well, that's a long story.  Here's the briefest explanation I can give.

1) If it were my world, everything would happen differently and no one would need to worry about salvation or anything like it.
2) It isn't my world.  God created it and us.  Therefore he gets to make up the rules.
3) I don't like the rules.
4) Most people don't like the rules.
5) God wants people to know the rules.  He wrote them in a book and he occaisionally tells people, such as Billy Graham, to go and tell the rules to others.
6) Telling the rules to others is a very unpleasant task (see 3 and 4 above)
7) Some people accept the rules, others don't
Cool I *still* don't like the rules, but I accept them (no other choice really).
9) Billy tells people the rules.
10) Some people get angry with Billy and blame him as tho' he made the rules
11) Billy is just doing what he was told.  Please don't shoot the messenger.

This posting is too long and if you've read this far you're amazing!

Barry

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