Something else: I don't really subscribe to the 'talent'-comments. I'm making music for a living and enjoying it, have been for something like 10 years now. The whole blass
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2005, 02:33:29 AM »
No surprise that you are getting off balanced low end. One speaker with only a back wall, no corner and high ceiling, the other speaker inside a compound miter corner, with off angle short ceiling. Compound meaning both the corner and the low ceiling angle come into the equation.
It's too bad that you can't shift from the short wall to the long wall. Your ceiling is splayed upward, in a much more advantageous way, than where you are now. Rather than having right monitor in a compound angel corner and the left in a significantly more reflection free zone, both speakers would have equal reflection and difussion from the back wall and ceiling. But seeing how you can not move at all, don't believe that you can't do something to improve the present layout, any sound absorbtion material will help, even 2 or 3 inches of foam behind the corner speaker, will make a difference and it doesn't look like you will have lot of room for a trap anyway. Theatre drapes behind the desk and along the short side wall would help a bunch. The main problem I forsee in treating the room at your present config. is likely the ceiling. It's angled lower to higher over your sweet spot and the monitors, a typical bass trap that goes into a corner with flat ceiling isn't going to do the same thing in your angled ceiling corner. You are probably going to have to treat some of the ceiling near the right monitor, even if you can get a trap behind it.
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------Ronny Morris - Digitak Mastering------ --------- http://digitakmastering.com--------- ----------Powered By Experience------------- -------------Driven To Perfection---------------
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2005, 02:52:01 AM »
| r.baby wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 18:58 |
| howlback wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 20:57 |
If your 8 dB boost is from sticking the speaker in a corner an absorber is not going to help. A few suggestions:
3. Listenting outside of the sweet spot is just as important as listening inside. When George mixes he moves all around the room - especially when he's doing surround. Judging pitch from outside of the sweet spot should be no problem. Just relax and open your ears and keep that nice big grin on your face.
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Hi Howlback, Err. I know. I don't think that's something Mr. Massenburg (or Georg as you call him) has invented. Common sense, yaknow? But are you seriously suggesting that I should set up my speakers so I don't sit in the sweetspot on purpose??? I don't get it. Fl.
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You said: "It's just not an option to having to judge pitch and performance on the side (so to speak) while still trying to be in contact with the singer. I've done that in other studios, and I utterly hate it." I said:"Judging pitch from outside of the sweet spot should be no problem." Frankly, traking vocals so that you are not listening in the sweet-spot is an option. People do it all the time. Some even consider it important to check their mix from such a position. Hope that's more clear. Concensus seems to be that you got your speakers in the worst place possible. Absorption down in the frequecy range you are talking about is hard to get (45 Hz). Most anechoic chambers are not anechoic down there!
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2005, 03:38:55 AM »
| Eric Rudd wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 02:46 |
I realize that you must be stressed about your control room sound. I can identify, as does everyone here, with your frustration. My comment was meant as a joke. Since we've never worked together, or I doubt, you've worked with any clients I've had over the years, please don't lecture me about work ethic.
You must have mistaken the tone behind my comments, as I'm sure I just did of yours.
Eric
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Hi Eric, Sorry if I sounded over-upset. English isn't my first language by a long shot, so I might come across a bit too blunt sometimes. Anyway, I sorta still stand by the essence, even though it's not necessarily directed against you: That it's really dull to hear engineers going on (on boards like these and in studio kitchens etc) about how shitty their clients are. If that's how people feel about their work, maybe they should just get another job. In a bank or something. Yes, there are bad artists outthere, but it's really our choise as producers and engineers if we want to work with them or not. I'm lucky enough to be able to just say no thanks to gigs that I'm not really into, so I don't really have the problem. But even when I did, way back, I always tried to enjoy the sessions anyway, cause if there's something a less than stellar artist doesn't need, it's that the guy who put up the mic and has to punch record is being counter productive. Being an engineer is all about making the artist look (well, sound) as good as possible, and that always comes down to the VIBE of the recording situation. That's why I wont sit with my back towards a singer in a vocal booth too. How would YOU feel? I'd hate it myself. Anyway. That's one of the reasons why studio layouts isn't as simple as going for the optimal sound setup. There are compromises that HAVE to be made.  Fl.
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2005, 03:42:23 AM »
| howlback wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 08:52 |
Frankly, traking vocals so that you are not listening in the sweet-spot is an option. People do it all the time. Some even consider it important to check their mix from such a position. Hope that's more clear.
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Again: I (and all mixers I've ever met) always check mixes at other positions. But I have yet to meet even ONE pro tracking engineer or producer who actually PREFERS not being in the sweet spot (or close to it) when tracking vocals. Or who prefers not to being able to see the singer. Dunno. Maybe we haven't met the same people. Fl.
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2005, 03:59:39 AM »
| Ronny wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 08:33 |
It's too bad that you can't shift from the short wall to the long wall. Your ceiling is splayed upward, in a much more advantageous way, than where you are now. Rather than having right monitor in a compound angel corner and the left in a significantly more reflection free zone, both speakers would have equal reflection and difussion from the back wall and ceiling. But seeing how you can not move at all, don't believe that you can't do something to improve the present layout, any sound absorbtion material will help, even 2 or 3 inches of foam behind the corner speaker, will make a difference and it doesn't look like you will have lot of room for a trap anyway. Theatre drapes behind the desk and along the short side wall would help a bunch. The main problem I forsee in treating the room at your present config. is likely the ceiling. It's angled lower to higher over your sweet spot and the monitors, a typical bass trap that goes into a corner with flat ceiling isn't going to do the same thing in your angled ceiling corner. You are probably going to have to treat some of the ceiling near the right monitor, even if you can get a trap behind it.
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Hi Ronny, and thanks Well. Actually there IS room for some bass traps. As I've said earlier: If you look at my sketches on page 1 there's actually quite a big piece of free space on the right side wall, something like 1.45 x 2.00 x 0.30 metres (H, W, D) and under the control room window there's also a bit of free space (0.90 x 1.20 x 0.20 metres). These figures translate (I think) to 57x78x12 and 33x47x8 inches. As for the ceiling, I've already got some treatment above the speaker in the corner. And just putting foam in the corner as you suggest isn't really gonna be addressing the low end at all. Foam is a mid range/high end absorber (at best), isn't it? Turning the setup 90 degrees so I would be facing the side wall wouldn't really change anything btw. There's a beam circa mid room, so the only difference would be that it would be the left speaker that was in that corner, with the right speaker not being in a corner. Oh, and that they'd looking into the same sort of ceiling. But if you look at the freq response curve in my initial posts (which were made from the listening point, btw), you'll see that the ceiling problems are (propably) the weirdnes at around 90 hz and 120 hz, which not only cancels each other out (well, sorta) but is also less severe than the bass boost at the extreme lows. My initial plan was to do a big bass trap on the side wall or in the corner to address the 45 hz boost and then a smaller one or two under the control room window, to address the 90/120 hz probs. Upwards in the spectrums, there's not really any problems with the room. So again. If anybody has any suggestions how to actually do bass traps for the given frequencies and given the space limitations, it'd be much appreciated. I realize it's not optimal etc, so don't waste your time telling me! hehe Thanks, Flemming
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2005, 08:50:50 AM »
| r.baby wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 08:38 |
Hi Eric,
Sorry if I sounded over-upset. English isn't my first language by a long shot, so I might come across a bit too blunt sometimes.
Anyway, I sorta still stand by the essence,
Fl.
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Sorta stand by it? I think you definitely stand by it. I completely, 142% agree with your position, btw. The artist's comfort and enjoyment of the process is the number one thing for me too. I've said before on this forum that a stellar headphone mix for your artist is as or more important that what mic you use in terms of getting "the" performance. I thought you were using the global "you" in your comments, I just wasn't sure. And I was up late the night before with our 3 month old....which is in and of itself difficult as my wife and I are both 40. So that's why I might have been a bit testy. Best of luck. Eric
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2005, 10:29:13 AM »
I understand your reluctance (nay, staunch resistance!) to rotating your listening position. However, the fact that visual contact with the artist is only important during tracking raises another option: in addition to attempting to trap your current room orientation, can you imagine any way in which you could easily rotate to the long wall for mixing?
It might require a second set of monitors and maybe a small monitor mixer for tracking, but maybe little else.
We're just trying to help you out, rbaby!
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2005, 10:43:41 AM »
| jimmyjazz wrote on Wed, 31 August 2005 16:29 |
I understand your reluctance (nay, staunch resistance!) to rotating your listening position.
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We're just trying to help you out, rbaby!
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Hehehe, thanks mate Well, the thing is (sigh) it's just not possible to rotate anything. 1. There's not enough room for my gear if I put it the other way, and 2. There's a big metal beam 4-5 feet behind my current listening position, near the sidewall. Either it would be RIGHT where the right speaker would go, ot it would be standing in between the new listening position and the speaker. I don't know any other ways of saying it: Changing the basic setup is not an option. It's not that I'm reluctant or staunch (well, OK, I am), it's not an option!. As in: Cannot be done. Period. So I get back to my initial question: Bass traps. How? Flemming
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2005, 11:21:47 AM »
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