R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Production or 'Spec' Deals?  (Read 8662 times)

rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2005, 09:14:02 pm »

rattleyour wrote on Thu, 25 August 2005 10:24

 how many of you guys actually have or have had your own label?

How do you make your self a LABEL, rather than just some dude getting 1000 CD's printed up. Off the top of my head, distribution, promotion, and publicity are all part of the LABEL equation.

Obviously, owning the label has a correlative relationship to working on spec-- that's why I bring it up.



I have a "label"  that I have been trying to get off the ground for a couple of years.... Have the 50/50 contract similar to JJ's. A business licence... BUT, I do not have the connections that JJ has, so I have some thoughts from the underbelly perspective (LOL):

Without distribution , (or major label contacts) it's very tough to sign any good bands.  The distributors I have talked to want to see the product, as in finished album, before making any commitments.  This means recording and pressing at least a few copies... big investment, just to see if they like it.  Then the distributor wants to see a tour schedule and enough copies to put in the stores in said towns.. big investment.....   Lots of legwork if your a one man shop.

And if you are just going to shop the demo for a major label deal, then you are a manger. (in my book it's all "demos" without a label deal)

So, As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have opted to  become a new entity: "Managing Producer".  I am producing and managing a band that I really believe in and feel much better about the relationship than I would if I had got them on my "label".  As manager I am "on their side" rather than lording above them, I am one of the "gang" and that is a far better position to steer things from.  15% as manager .... (not off small gigs though, only "bigger picture" stuff that I will be involved in)

In the "label" scenario I would be cut out of the picture once they signed to a larger label...(And take a one shot buy out) As manager I (hope to) stay on well into their career (when the real earning power kicks in) and make it a long term income stream. Also, they want me to stay on as producer "no matter what" so once they get picked up by a major and get forced to hire a "real" producer , I will be there to soak up the glory as "assistant producer" or some other vague title... This in itself would be worth the price of admission...(Networking, networking, networking) (This is where I will meet the label execs for next time around.)

In the long run, if you want to help bands that you believe in, it really doesn't matter what the title is, or how you are compensated, as long as you are, And everybody is happy with the relationship. It's all just semantics...  And once you have one successful band under your belt the phone will start ringing and you can call yourself a label, or producer, or whatever the hell you want baby Wink

PS:  JJ, maybe your interestd in signing my band?  Could use a vacation in LA...


Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2005, 09:47:42 pm »

Ha!  I'm sure I could sell a dozen or so copies!  I tell you what, I'll trade you a vacation in LA for a weekend in Whistler.  

Rolling Eyes
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

brandondrury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 703
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2005, 11:20:08 am »

Quote:

Saying that she doesn't have a built in audience is like saying that U2 doesn't have a built in audience.


If Bono were to produce an album, it would do very well.  I know people who run out and buy everything that Nickelback singer/songwriter dude produces simply because he produced it.

Brandon

rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2005, 12:58:06 pm »

brandondrury wrote on Sat, 27 August 2005 08:20


 I know people who run out and buy everything that Nickelback singer/songwriter dude produces simply because he produced it.

Brandon


That is sooo sad...
Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

Jules

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 144
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2005, 04:58:08 pm »

rankus wrote on Fri, 26 August 2005 02:14



So, As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have opted to  become a new entity: "Managing Producer".  I am producing and managing a band that I really believe in and feel much better about the relationship than I would if I had got them on my "label".  As manager I am "on their side" rather than lording above them, I am one of the "gang" and that is a far better position to steer things from.  15% as manager .... (not off small gigs though, only "bigger picture" stuff that I will be involved in)

In the "label" scenario I would be cut out of the picture once they signed to a larger label...(And take a one shot buy out) As manager I (hope to) stay on well into their career (when the real earning power kicks in) and make it a long term income stream. Also, they want me to stay on as producer "no matter what" so once they get picked up by a major and get forced to hire a "real" producer , I will be there to soak up the glory as "assistant producer" or some other vague title... This in itself would be worth the price of admission...(Networking, networking, networking) (This is where I will meet the label execs for next time around.)




Problem that some folks around a signed act might have with that is.. You being a 'beginner manager'

As you said - you are keen to share in the long term income stream... well what funds managers is their share of advances..

So... if it turns out that you can't cut it as manager and they have to get a long term pro manager further down the line - there is one problem.... You have ALREADY pocketed - the managers cut! Shocked  This can leave a band high and dry.. well not exactly they could PAY a manager out of the money they have left - but what if the inexperienced manager let the straw-nosed A&R mook blow it all on a "3 producer studio tour nightmare" of a first record?

Album made (for too much $$$$) = big debt
No advances for untill next record... (will there be a next record?)
A new pro manager gets what exactly? (to work a mess of a record he wasnt around for - with no advance cut to run his operations on...)
Next is... the fired A&R Mook .... BECOMES THE MANAGER!!!!!  Confused

Any how - that is my view of the "I'm not realy a manager" dream..

(BTW nothing personal, I am sure you are a nice person etc...)









rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2005, 05:55:35 pm »

Jules wrote on Sat, 27 August 2005 13:58



Problem that some folks around a signed act might have with that is.. You being a 'beginner manager'

Any how - that is my view of the "I'm not realy a manager" dream..

(BTW nothing personal, I am sure you are a nice person etc...)







You seem to mixing up "artists manager" with "profesional manager" ... two seperate entities ... I am the former., and will hire the latter before any major labels see any ink.

Not a newbie here.... been in biz a long time.

Oh, no offence taken, and nothing personal... I'm sure you are "nice person" too... Cool
Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2005, 10:46:44 pm »

Get a hotel room, you two.   Rolling Eyes
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #97 on: August 28, 2005, 01:35:12 am »

yeh,, what was I thinking...
Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

Jules

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 144
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2005, 09:14:30 am »

rankus wrote on Sat, 27 August 2005 22:55

You seem to mixing up "artists manager" with "profesional manager" ... two seperate entities ... I am the former., and will hire the latter before any major labels see any ink.


I have heard of the sub catagory 'personal manager' - and sort of oddd ball character someone like Mariah Cary has running around buying dog food & shoes..

As for band managers there are two types IMHO

1)"learn on the job" managers (friend of the band, club promoter, someone with a 2nd full time job etc) Some of these make it, some don't.

2) "Professsional" managers - by professional I mean ones that have been doing it a while, do this as their only job, full time have several acts and run an office with support staff etc..

3) I would say there was a 3rd catagory - "deal getter on commision" this would be someone honest enough to say - look you will need a real fulltime manager for your career & that aint gonna be me, I am only interested in a cut from the first deal advance, let make it a low percentage - cause your real manager is going to need some $$$$ to run with..And besides once you are signed - I probably aint gonna be on the team any more...

What in your opinion is different between your description "Artist manager" and "pro manager"? Including financial reward / share of advances etc..?

Are you saying that you would walk them up to a deal and step asside for a more experienced manager? And waive your share of the advances?

Record co's can see this a mile off and the manipulation of the artist will start from day one to get the early days manager removed and someone else installed.

Thoughts anyone?








rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2005, 01:24:14 pm »

Management primer:

One manages the "career"  the other manages the "business"

Commonly the artist will start out at a level of income that would not attract the "business" manager, yet they still need guidance...  At this point they should get someone they trust and that has some savy in the biz as well as the creative end... Think Beyonce Knowles dad, or Brittany's mom, Ozzy's wife, Mikey Jacksons dad ....

From a music biz law firms website describing the differences in the contracts they supply:

1. This Artist Manager  is  contracting with an artist when the manager will be personally managing and advising the career of the recording and performing artist.


2. The business manager, typically different from the manager, is employed to collect and distribute the artist's money as well as advise the artist in money matters. A business manager is usually an accountant or C.P.A.


Soooo... As the career starts off the artist will get an "artists manager" to be their "point man" in the business end as well as help with artistic and career related planing and execution.

Then, as the money starts rolling in, the artists manager will increase the team by adding a business manager, road manager, agent,  and possibly retain full-time legal counseling as well....

The "artist manager" then becomes a "team manager"

These team members will be paid "employees" rather than share in the income.... Keeps everybody honest.


Jules, I completely agree that as things progress the artist may outgrow this manager.  Or the manager may rise to their highest level of incompetence (Murphy's law).... They may also rise to the occasion by  seeking higher education or by "learning on the job"....

Your scenario could be true of any position though, (even the publisher;o)

As for myself.  I have decades of business management experience and I pity the poor sole that tries to "end run" me... Cool


Another thought that occurs to me:  I can think of at least a dozen super stars with friends or family members as management, but cannot think of a single one that credits a "management firm" with starting their career and then staying on as long term personal/artists management.... Just sayin...


Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

Jules

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 144
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2005, 07:12:28 pm »

Well as the millions roll in no doubt as the team expands...

Do we need the primer on - head gardener, butler and chef too!

I think the focus here is how much green an honest knob twiddling engineer / producer type could pocket before the big fins surface when helping to launch a bands career...


rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2005, 12:13:17 pm »

Jules,

Great discussion!

I think we are in agreement.. Simply looking at it from different angles if you will.

All the best to you in your endevours....

I hear ya, I'll keep an eye out for those fins Wink

Cheers,
Rick
Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

Jules

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 144
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2005, 08:45:55 pm »

Well I really hit the jackpot today!

I got a cheque for $200 from my Publishing co Admin company.

My share of a band I worked on spec for about a month over 2 years ago.

Now lets see thats er..$6.66 per day

Not er (COUGH) Bad for a days work I (CHOKE) suppose?

(runs self into a wall)

Embarassed

Don't try this at home kids!

Very Happy

http://www.buildanevilempirejustlikejules.com

Dave Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2005, 11:03:18 pm »

A bunch of you guys seem to forget that there are TWO revenue streams in the publishing end of things - one is the writers share (50%) and the other is the publishers' share (50%). There are sound financial reasons for the sucess of publishing companies, and sound reasons for artists to sign publishing deals rather than trying to keep all of their publishing share AND all of their writing share.

The problem with people like Leonard Chess and (and those like him) is that they were taking both halves of the income in one way or another. And Chess was flat out stealing from his artists, too.Oh, and remember that the laws have changed since then; in the 50's and 60's, you could sell your song outright - at that point you would own NONE of it. In truth, most of those songs listed with the artist as the writer, not the actual writer. These days, that doesn't usually happen like that.
Remember that Carole King was wealthy before she ever recorded Tapestry - she make her money as a writer, with the publishing rights going to someone else.

There are artists who demand a piece of the publishing when they do a song, and there are some who even want some of the writers credit in addition to the publishing. But there are also reputable publishers who can (and do) tell those artists to kiss off. Same principal with major labels who demand all the publishing with new acts - the labels claim that they need to have the publishing money to make money off the project (the appropriate response is, "If you don't think you can sell enough copies of the record to recoup, why in the hell are you signing us?), and because they feel that young and unproven artists will dign publishing deals without screaming. But major labels also tend to own the rights to a record 'throughout the universe' (I friend's lawyer was able to negotiate the rights on Saturn back to the band, however...).

I live in a city with many, many non-performing writers - writers who are signed with publishers. So I see what a good publisher is worth (and I also see what bad publishers can do to a writers career).

The job of a publisher is to get songs into the marketplace where they can generate income for the writer (and the publishing company, of course). If you can't do that sort of thing and look at 'publishing' simply as a gamble that might pay off, then asking for part (or all) of the publishing on a band you're doing a spec deal with is probably not the best thing that the band could do. But if you're willing to do the legwork that would make the publishing rights to a song worth money, then the band may well be doing themselves a favour by signing with you.

In other words, some of the guys on this thread act as though a songwriter 'deserves' to have both his writing and publishing share of every song he writes; Others feel that they deserve the publishing as part of a spec deal, even though they wouldn't see any of that money unless the band gets signed, and wouldn't know how to pitch a song in any case. The truth, is either somewhere in the middle or completely diferent from both views.
Logged

Dave Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: Production or 'Spec' Deals?
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2005, 11:07:10 pm »

I'd also suggest that anyone interested in publishing for fun and profit read "Music Publishing: A Songwriter's Guide by Randy Poe". You can follow the following link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898797543/103-8209482-2443 809?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8   Go Up