Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ged Leitch]

Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 18:39

Gerald Leitch wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 08:44 Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 13:35 Carpel tunnel syndrome is what it sounds like to me too. My brother in law had it in both arms, he's a guitarist with the Dirty Harry's. The doctor told him that it comes from muscles swelling and pinching the nerve that goes down the arm and into the hand, at the wrist the over used muscles squeeze the nerve, thus causing numbness. His case got increasingly worse, the numbness progressed up both arms and into the shoulder and eventually causing much pain, where he couldn't perform with the band anymore. He had an operation that he spent $10,000 on. Two out patient sessions as they didn't want to do both wrists at the same time. It took him about 3 weeks before he regained the use of the first arm operated on and went back for the other. So TCS can get progressively worse as time goes by, but the good news is that it can be treated. God that sounds terrible!!! Hope he is back playing now man. This thread has highlighted an often over looked aspect of general production, i.e fatigue. Think I'll start my streches again!!! Oh, yeah he was back playing again 2 months after the first operation and is performing better than ever now. Hasn't had any more problems. That was about 5 years ago when he had the operations. Brian Lucey said this: "Doctors are almost more harm than good in these cases. they medicate and operate. Often the issue is made far worse by their advice ... so dont ask for it! I'm not a big fan of doctors, but this has to be the worst advice that I've ever heard anyone give on a newsgroup. A doctor wouldn't diagnose somebody and give them instructions without physically examining the patient in person. What makes you think that you can cure Tom's problem or even diagnose it from across the internet without any medical experience? My brother in law suffered for a long time before it got so bad that he had to seek professional advice and said that he wished he would have gone to the doctor much earlier. As I mentioned above he is completely cured and he tried all of the chiropractic remedies along the way, nothing helped until he was diagnosed by a real doctor.

Thats cool, glad to hear he recovered.
By the way Ronny I dunno if you were reffering to me or Brian but I did say in my orig post to tommy to try the methods I used (with success) and if it doesnt work go see a doctor.
Cheers.

[Ronny]

Gerald Leitch wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 15:05

Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 18:39 Gerald Leitch wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 08:44 Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 13:35 Carpel tunnel syndrome is what it sounds like to me too. My brother in law had it in both arms, he's a guitarist with the Dirty Harry's. The doctor told him that it comes from muscles swelling and pinching the nerve that goes down the arm and into the hand, at the wrist the over used muscles squeeze the nerve, thus causing numbness. His case got increasingly worse, the numbness progressed up both arms and into the shoulder and eventually causing much pain, where he couldn't perform with the band anymore. He had an operation that he spent $10,000 on. Two out patient sessions as they didn't want to do both wrists at the same time. It took him about 3 weeks before he regained the use of the first arm operated on and went back for the other. So TCS can get progressively worse as time goes by, but the good news is that it can be treated. God that sounds terrible!!! Hope he is back playing now man. This thread has highlighted an often over looked aspect of general production, i.e fatigue. Think I'll start my streches again!!! Oh, yeah he was back playing again 2 months after the first operation and is performing better than ever now. Hasn't had any more problems. That was about 5 years ago when he had the operations. Brian Lucey said this: "Doctors are almost more harm than good in these cases. they medicate and operate. Often the issue is made far worse by their advice ... so dont ask for it! I'm not a big fan of doctors, but this has to be the worst advice that I've ever heard anyone give on a newsgroup. A doctor wouldn't diagnose somebody and give them instructions without physically examining the patient in person. What makes you think that you can cure Tom's problem or even diagnose it from across the internet without any medical experience? My brother in law suffered for a long time before it got so bad that he had to seek professional advice and said that he wished he would have gone to the doctor much earlier. As I mentioned above he is completely cured and he tried all of the chiropractic remedies along the way, nothing helped until he was diagnosed by a real doctor. Thats cool, glad to hear he recovered. By the way Ronny I dunno if you were reffering to me or Brian but I did say in my orig post to tommy to try the methods I used (with success) and if it doesnt work go see a doctor. Cheers.

No I wasn't talking about you, or Jeff who mentioned things that help for your particular situations. I was talking specifically about Brian saying that a doctor will make it worse and not to seek their advice, when none of us really know what the problem is. That's why I said that, it "sounds" like carpel tunnel syndrome to me. I'm not a doctor, I don't know what the problem is, but I relate what my brother in law went through because Tom described the same exact symptoms and he didn't get better until he went to see a doctor about it.

[Wave Werks]

Yannick Willox wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 08:03

I use this: http://www.kensington.com/html/2200.html It's their big trackball (even if it's called expert mouse ...)

Hi Tom,

I'll toss in a third vote for the Kensington Expert Mouse (Big Trackball).  Having something nearly as large as a cue ball gives the ultimate in control without the hassle of having to move your hand/wrist/arm to control a mouse.  I learned to use one of these large trackballs to aid in my daily graphic design and layout tasks.  I had a different version years ago and replaced it with a Kensington just over a year ago.  I'll never use anything else for web & program navigation.  

I also have to throw a not at the Wacom/Intuos tablets.  I have a 6"x9" and a 9"x12" that I use regularly.  They are more of a designers thing for me than a navigational tool but they work very well and have yet to let me down.

[Ged Leitch]

Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 20:22

Gerald Leitch wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 15:05 Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 18:39 Gerald Leitch wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 08:44 Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 13:35 Carpel tunnel syndrome is what it sounds like to me too. My brother in law had it in both arms, he's a guitarist with the Dirty Harry's. The doctor told him that it comes from muscles swelling and pinching the nerve that goes down the arm and into the hand, at the wrist the over used muscles squeeze the nerve, thus causing numbness. His case got increasingly worse, the numbness progressed up both arms and into the shoulder and eventually causing much pain, where he couldn't perform with the band anymore. He had an operation that he spent $10,000 on. Two out patient sessions as they didn't want to do both wrists at the same time. It took him about 3 weeks before he regained the use of the first arm operated on and went back for the other. So TCS can get progressively worse as time goes by, but the good news is that it can be treated. God that sounds terrible!!! Hope he is back playing now man. This thread has highlighted an often over looked aspect of general production, i.e fatigue. Think I'll start my streches again!!! Oh, yeah he was back playing again 2 months after the first operation and is performing better than ever now. Hasn't had any more problems. That was about 5 years ago when he had the operations. Brian Lucey said this: "Doctors are almost more harm than good in these cases. they medicate and operate. Often the issue is made far worse by their advice ... so dont ask for it! I'm not a big fan of doctors, but this has to be the worst advice that I've ever heard anyone give on a newsgroup. A doctor wouldn't diagnose somebody and give them instructions without physically examining the patient in person. What makes you think that you can cure Tom's problem or even diagnose it from across the internet without any medical experience? My brother in law suffered for a long time before it got so bad that he had to seek professional advice and said that he wished he would have gone to the doctor much earlier. As I mentioned above he is completely cured and he tried all of the chiropractic remedies along the way, nothing helped until he was diagnosed by a real doctor. Thats cool, glad to hear he recovered. By the way Ronny I dunno if you were reffering to me or Brian but I did say in my orig post to tommy to try the methods I used (with success) and if it doesnt work go see a doctor. Cheers. No I wasn't talking about you, or Jeff who mentioned things that help for your particular situations. I was talking specifically about Brian saying that a doctor will make it worse and not to seek their advice, when none of us really know what the problem is. That's why I said that, it "sounds" like carpel tunnel syndrome to me. I'm not a doctor, I don't know what the problem is, but I relate what my brother in law went through because Tom described the same exact symptoms and he didn't get better until he went to see a doctor about it.

My mistake Ronny, about Tom though, the tingling he described can be a common symptom of carpal tunnel syndrome so I think your prob on the ball (doctor or no doctor)
So if your reading this tom, get to the doc asap.
I used to have an article by a specialist in carpal syndrome in Guitar world mag, if I find it I will scan it or quote any tips to you.

[lucey]

Ronny wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 12:39

"Doctors are almost more harm than good in these cases. they medicate and operate. Often the issue is made far worse by their advice ... so dont ask for it! I'm not a big fan of doctors, but this has to be the worst advice that I've ever heard anyone give on a newsgroup. A doctor wouldn't diagnose somebody and give them instructions without physically examining the patient in person.

The worst ever?  Come on now.

How many years have you studied the body and been around injuries like this?  How many world class experts in this field do you know?  What qualifies you to say anything besides one case with your family member?

This forum has members that give me hell for not enough years as a ME to speak out so boldly ... instead of mastering I was doing things like this!

Unfortunately I've seen 90% horror stories from MDs. I mentioned Barbra who is a career specialist in this field, and she would agree with me, they do more harm than good in most cases.     Are we so naive to think a MD knows all?  They know how to see 38 people per day ... they get trained on that ... but body work? No training.

There are a few cases where things are so out of hand that surgery is necessary, the "Carpel Tunnel" is so badly scarred that the surgery diagnosis works, but mostly it's a use issue that can be fixed with intelligent application.  OTOH less than intelligent application does not work, long term.

The body is made to work in certain ways, thus the request for photos. No guarantees, but no damage either from a few suggestions.  Surgery is for the EXTREME cases, and MDs default to it when painkillers and steroids or anti-inflammatories fail.

I've seen doctors operate on people who didn't need it FAR too often to send anyone to a MD with a clean conscience.  I know of a doctor who this decade REMOVED A RIB to alleviate back pain for a cellist.  There are many fields that are far more specialized than a medical doctor.  NOT chiropractors ... that's not going to fix the habits of use that cause the issue, only adjust for short term relief at best.

Broken leg? MD.

Quote:

What makes you think that you can cure Tom's problem or even diagnose it from across the internet without any medical experience?

Experience.  I was a student of Barbra's for a time and considered a career in helping just these sorts of folks.  I also studied with Alexander teachers all over the US and in Europe. Lots of experience.

Quote:

My brother in law suffered for a long time before it got so bad that he had to seek professional advice and said that he wished he would have gone to the doctor much earlier. As I mentioned above he is completely cured and he tried all of the chiropractic remedies along the way, nothing helped until he was diagnosed by a real doctor.

He's in the smallest minority.  Had he gone to the right people  (or heaven forbid shown some photos online!) he would have not needed surgery in all likelyhood.



No one is born with these injuries ... they are from misuse of the body.  And Doctors do not teach proper use, they are taught to memorize the skeletons bone names and muscle names, they are not movement specialists.  Even the Physical Therapists are more therapy than healing.


Pain is from either misuse of the body, or holding emotional pain in the body via tensions.  It's a simple diagnosis in most cases, it's the letting go of physical motion habit or emotional pain that's difficult.

Your Brother in Law may reoccur in 3-5 years if his use issues are not resolved. Not a threat, a guarantee.

Use issues and body mapping mistakes lead to all these injuries and a surgery may stop the pain for a time but at a cost to other mobility and often, it reoccurs in under 10 years ... all unless we change behaviour.

[Ronny]

Brian, my wife died of cancer not long after I took her to a cancer clinic in Mexico, run by Americans that couldn't get the treatment approved in the US. 3 licensed doctors told her that it would be a waste of time and that she needed to follow her oconologists recommendations and get proper treatment. A friend of mine's wife died of cancer trusting someone that reads bumps on the head, IIRC a phrenologist or something like that. This isn't the difference in sound between cables and cd-r brands, or dither, or power cables. It's about health and ill-advising people like my wife was ill-advised. While it's true that "some" doctors treat people like lemmings and just want their dough, there are many, many doctors that are into it to help people. Your statements about doctors are too generalized and although I would try changing the ergonomics in Tom's case first, as he'll be doing that naturally before long anyway, I would still see someone that is specialized in these matters and American Medical Association approved, if the condition persists. TCS doesn't happen with everybody and many people do repetetive tasks that are worse than mousing or playing the guitar and never have any problems. It only got worse for my brother in law as time progress and believe me he tried many things, before going to a doctor. I'm not familiar with Barbra or Alexander methods but I highly doubt that they know how to prevent TCS better than a physical therapist. I don't know anyone that has gone to them and not to a doctor and was cured, so I'll take your word on that, but when you "automatically" advise someone that has a medical condition not to go to a doctor without someone qualified to examine the person, you are taking their health into your own hands.      

[Ged Leitch]

Ronny wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 06:28

Brian, my wife died of cancer not long after I took her to a cancer clinic in Mexico, run by Americans that couldn't get the treatment approved in the US. 3 licensed doctors told her that it would be a waste of time and that she needed to follow her oconologists recommendations and get proper treatment. A friend of mine's wife died of cancer trusting someone that reads bumps on the head, IIRC a phrenologist or something like that. This isn't the difference in sound between cables and cd-r brands, or dither, or power cables. It's about health and ill-advising people like my wife was ill-advised. While it's true that "some" doctors treat people like lemmings and just want their dough, there are many, many doctors that are into it to help people. Your statements about doctors are too generalized and although I would try changing the ergonomics in Tom's case first, as he'll be doing that naturally before long anyway, I would still see someone that is specialized in these matters and American Medical Association approved, if the condition persists. TCS doesn't happen with everybody and many people do repetetive tasks that are worse than mousing or playing the guitar and never have any problems. It only got worse for my brother in law as time progress and believe me he tried many things, before going to a doctor. I'm not familiar with Barbra or Alexander methods but I highly doubt that they know how to prevent TCS better than a physical therapist. I don't know anyone that has gone to them and not to a doctor and was cured, so I'll take your word on that, but when you "automatically" advise someone that has a medical condition not to go to a doctor without someone qualified to examine the person, you are taking their health into your own hands.

Very sad to hear that Ronny.A similar thing happened with a freinds mother a few years ago,it was terrible.
All i would add is that there are SO many phony health "people"
out there working with pseudo science that it's no wonder people get confused sometimes, im not saying that they don't all work but i have yet to hear of any one treated for a serious condition by using their methods.

[AndreasN]

Sorry to hear that, Ronny! My mother died way to early by cancer. You have my empathy.


I'll chime in one for Lucey. I'm sure there was only good will behind his statements!

There's already been a lot of net-doctoring here. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is only one of many specific illnesses related to the broad non-medical Repetitive Strain Injury term. This sounded like something that was in the very start of becomming a problem, by the way Thomas described it. Not a major crisis, yet. If that is the case, Lucey may provide more help than a MD.

There's only that much a regular doctor can do. Dissonant behaviour in the body is left untreated by most MD's. Doctors generally don't know how to tune bodies. They'll rather use an auto tuner than to fix the playing technique!

It doesn't help Thomas or anyone else to be told that there's pain in the limbs, that's obvious. Which is about as much as a doctor can do, unless there's an infection or other major physical problem, like CPS. If this is the case, the doctors can actually help. Mostly, they can't do much since it's not covered in the normal education. By all means, do seek a doctor, but keep looking for other advise if they can't help you.

Muscle therapists, often found in the sports, are good people to consult for those muscle pains a regular doctor can't solve. Have done a lot of bicycling and have crashed way too much. Was often left with minor problems for which the normal doctors had no cure at all. Found an athletes 'doctor', with almost no official education, that helped me a lot where the regular MD's couldn't do anything at all.

I'm as much sceptical to alternative stuff as to ME's that say they hear sonic differences between CDRs. Still, those are often the only ones left to consult. It's a jungle, but there's good animals in there too. Doctors don't have time and energy for much anything but prescriptions. For a more fundamental approach to problem solving, the alternative medicine people like Lucey hints to, often have the patience to study the fundamental pose and behaviour to correct the source for the problem. That's what matters in the long run.


What was described seemed like the first warning signs of a possible future problem. I guess Tom wouldn't seek a doctor anyway, unless this got worse, and the best way to keep it from getting worse is by looking at the body as it's used in the offending situation.


Cheers,

Andreas Nordenstam

[bobkatz]

Pain is the misuse of the body.

One of the best investments I ever made was in a Wacom tablet. There is no tension in holding the pen and the clicks by tapping on the tablet cause no pain or pressure on the nerves because the pressure goes between the thumb and forefinger holding the pen. I can go through long long sessions with a tablet but can't go through hours like that with a mouse or trackball.
BK

[Arf! Mastering]

I used to use the old Kensington mechanical trackball - it was great, smooth running.  Then I got the "upgraded" optical expert mouse and the joy turned into hate.  The optical trackball is jumpy, never smooth, drives you crazy undershooting and overshooting.  The Wacom Intuos finall saved the day, but I still use the trackball for office tasks.

[tom eaton]

Even the old Kensington Turbo mouse was "optical" as far as I knew, using two slotted wheels between an LED and a receiver to track the motion of the ball.  Are the new ones significantly different?  I really need to get a new trackball and I wish they still made that old heavy Turbo Mouse...it was really the right tool for the job (for me).  Never got the hang of the tablet...tried it, but couldn't get used to where to put the pencil down to get the pointer where I wanted it to go.  Probably not enough time spent with it.  I'm typing on a laptop with a trackpad; possibly the worst navigation tool ever.

Those little gel wrist rests are a godsend...put one right at the end of the trackball to rest the butt of your hand on...works like a charm.

-tom

[Arf! Mastering]

The inertia of the ball of the old expert mouse was much nicer.  It was the heavy ball on the ball-bearing mounted encoder wheels that gave it a good smooth feel.  I could even throw the cursor and have it land exactly where I wanted by giving the ball a spin.   The new ball rests on plain old friction mounts - much cheaper to make.  No wheels, no bearings.  Now the motion is sticky, frustrating, and sterss inducing.  The cursor is never where you want it on first try.  You're always correcting - no matter what the motion parameters are set at.  The problem with the old one - no scroll wheel.

[Jerry Tubb]

AlanS wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 18:17

The new ball rests on plain old friction mounts - much cheaper to make.  No wheels, no bearings.  Now the motion is sticky, frustrating, and sterss inducing.

I put a slight bit of lubricant... a small drop of wife's hand lotion, on the trackball to make it roll smoother. Works quite well then... I clean it and re-lube about once a month.

Wrist, arm and shoulder... free of pain for last 18 months.

[dcollins]

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 17:56

I clean it and re-lube about once a month.

There is a joke here wrt chronic arm pain but,

"I won't touch it"

Har!

DC

[Jerry Tubb]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 22:01

Jerry Tubb wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 17:56 I clean it and re-lube about once a month. There is a joke here wrt chronic arm pain but, "I won't touch it" Har! DC

Left myself wide open, didn't I ?

Remember this one ?

http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/mousebal.html