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Author Topic: what frequency for mono summing??  (Read 2769 times)

zetterstroem

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what frequency for mono summing??
« on: August 16, 2005, 12:52:14 PM »

i'm building this box for a friend that does all kinds of things.... HP/crossover for 2-band compression/MS compression/parallel compression etc.

i'm also going to build in a mono switch for the lowpass section.... for vinyl mastering....

but now i'm wondering what crossover frequencies i should use???

my initial idea was something like 40/60/80/120...... any input??

(i'm doing 24/oct linkwitz/riley as i believe it to be best regarding phase.... i don't want to induce any phase anomalies....)

thanks
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TotalSonic

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2005, 01:35:22 PM »

fwiw - The old Neumann Elliptical Eq's would be set to crossover at either 75/150 or 150/300.  The one in the desk at Europadisk were 150/300.  We also had a VAL (Vertical Amplitude Limiter) that I used most of the time so that sometimes I could get away with not having the EE on and just let the VAL handle occasional spots where the phase wasn't correlated well.  For LP's the EE was often off - but usually for 12" singles that were cut at hot levels I had the EE on at 150.  I occasionally received material where they had mixed with things like stereo chorus effects on the bass or bass panned off to the sides where putting the EE at 300 and really clamping down hard with the VAL was the only way I could get it to cut to the levels desired.  

If your making a box with 4 crossover points I think if you did something like 60/100/150/300 would be the most versatile.
I don't think a crossover point as low as 40 would be that useful.

fwiw - The Sonoris multiband comp uses Linkwitz-Riley crossovers and it sounds really nice so I think you're going in the right direction with your design.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

zetterstroem

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2005, 01:41:30 PM »

great info....

have you got any idea what slope was on the eliptical filter??

alot of band splitting i see is done at 6dB/oct.... eg. tubetech 3-band comp...

(this would mean only 12dB's @ 75Hz when the crossover at 300Hz....)
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TotalSonic

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 01:44:19 PM »

zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 18:41

great info....

have you got any idea what slope was on the eliptical filter??


Sorry - I never looked at the schematics to find out.  I'm pretty sure Paul Gold would be able to tell you what they did though.

ADT still makes EE modules also.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

zetterstroem

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2005, 01:53:32 PM »

i know about adt.... but i'm trying to build something with better components than most companies use...

i'll start looking for schematics.... if anyone has any i would be happy
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2005, 04:24:54 PM »

Unless something changed after the early '80s, everybody I knew avoided eliptical eq. like the plague on serious masters.

Dave C, did you use it much at A&M?

TotalSonic

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2005, 04:38:09 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 21:24

Unless something changed after the early '80s,


I think something did change:
DJ's wanting records cut at +6dBVu while they still had swirling synthetic bass lines going at full blast.

An EE certainly can mess with things but at a crossover of 150 the one in our desk was fairly transparent.

Again - for LP sides I usually kept it off.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

dcollins

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2005, 05:38:38 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 13:24

Unless something changed after the early '80s, everybody I knew avoided eliptical eq. like the plague on serious masters.

Dave C, did you use it much at A&M?


I'm not a lacquer guy, but the disc consoles all had them.  30, 50, 100, 150, 200, Iirc.

I remember Mike Reese (RIP) saying something like they were a crutch for lazy cutters!  On some mixes they would obviously be required, but I guess it's easy to dial up 200Hz and put your feet up on the bolster...

DC

jackthebear

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2005, 05:40:03 PM »

My experience was the same as Steve's. Not only do we have to contend with level and bass hungry djs but these guys also in most cases produce their own stuff and aren't aware of the limitions that come with a mechanical device like a lathe. So when they mix they don't consider the ramifications.

EE has been a Godsend in my book.

Cheers,
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Gold

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2005, 06:01:17 PM »

The EE66/70 is the Neumann EE I'm most familiar with. It's inductor based. The later EE77(?) is IC opamp based.

The EE66/70 is a 6dB/oct slope with the 3dB down point at the stated frequency 75/150/300Hz. I'm not sure what the EE77 is.
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zetterstroem

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2005, 06:25:01 PM »

thanks again for more great info.....

just wondering how they get the reggae stuff right on jamaica.... guess they're just to stoned to pan the bass..... or they're running their filters at 500Hz  Very Happy
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Gold

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 07:03:36 PM »

Or they just let it fly and hope for the best with a really deep groove (like 10 mil). I've seen this on many Jamaican records and even the Basic Channel stuff. Or they cut in mono.
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mikepecchio

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 10:33:07 PM »

Ive been doing alot of premastering for a reggae disk cutting room.  I don't pretend to be a lathe operator, but I work with one closely.  Ive learned ALOT from those guys regarding bass  Smile .   The mixes that come in are all over the map.  I use a z-sys digital EQ in MS mode pretty often to reduce the lows in the vertical channel.  I prefer a shelf to highpassing the vertical like an EE does.  the frequency is program dependant and varies greatly, as does how much, if any, cut I apply.  alot of the time the lateral gets a bit of bass boost to compensate.  by the way, the cutting chain here ALWAYS has the EE and vertical limiter bypassed, but the neumann HF limiter is used.  hope that helps!

mike p
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dcollins

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2005, 11:57:24 PM »

zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 09:52


(i'm doing 24/oct linkwitz/riley as i believe it to be best regarding phase.... i don't want to induce any phase anomalies....)
thanks


What phase anomalies are you afraid of?

Or 6dB/oct?  Does anyone use that anymore?

The curve that works for loudspeakers isn't necessarily what you want at line levels anyway.

DC

ammitsboel

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Re: what frequency for mono summing??
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2005, 02:29:52 AM »

zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:52


(i'm doing 24/oct linkwitz/riley as i believe it to be best regarding phase.... i don't want to induce any phase anomalies....)

You will always introduce phase changes with any passive/active filter unless you use a DSP or tape recorder.
With a Linkwitz/Riley filter your impulse response will be more skewed than if you compare it to a minimum phase filter if you can handle a lower order slope.
The most "phase correct" filter is actually a minimum phase(6db per octave) filter not a Linkwitz/Riley.
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