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Author Topic: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?  (Read 8691 times)

bblackwood

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2005, 09:44:25 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 20:31

2. = You are not a professional mastering engineer at least I hope so cos normally they would know that the internal calculations in WaveLab are done in 32bits so when you want 16bit in the end you have to render it...as simple as that.

Indeed your Inspector Clouseau-like investigation has found me out. I am actually a professional bag-boy at Wal-Mart. Thanks for outing me!

Quote:

4. = You think that this is crap? I think that you don't know anything about science!

Once again, your incredible grasp of physics and science baffles me. Please explain how any of your claims are possible, using small words for my tiny brain...

Quote:

Quote from Hi-Fi News and Record Review, July 2001

Yah, when I want real science I go to 'Hi-Fi News and Record Review'...

How about posting some real evidence and using your real name, as according to the policy posted here, any further unsigned posts will be deleted. This is a forum for professionals who take their craft seriously...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

ElectricHead

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2005, 09:57:23 PM »

Ohhhh, when the arguments running out from your side I will be kicked in the ass... I see.

When I sign my real name I'm sure you will find another reason to kick me out.

http://www.emmlabs.com/

Sometimes the truth can be very hurtful?




Sinan Guensuer
Chief Developer
VOYAGE GbR
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VOYAGE
REFERENCE STANDARD MUSIC REPRODUCTION
Sinan Guensuer Chief Developer

TotalSonic

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2005, 09:58:08 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 02:31

2. = You are not a professional mastering engineer at least I hope so cos normally they would know that the internal calculations in WaveLab are done in 32bits so when you want 16bit in the end you have to render it...as simple as that.


I believe you have this completely wrong.  In Digital Audio Extraction the optical disc is read and streams the data to an image on a hard drive of it's ones and zeros.  In the case of Red Book Standard CD Digital Audio these 1's and 0's decode to one thing and one thing only - 16bit/44.1kHz PCM.  Anything else returned or processed through an intermediate process is essentially not what the original image was!!  


Quote:


And finally, if you are denying that dithering is not a sonic improvement.....


If a 16bit already dithered file is undergoing no further processing - then adding more dither to it does nothing whatsoever to "improve" the file.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ElectricHead

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2005, 10:06:35 PM »

What are you trying to achieve? Manipulation?

When you load the file into WaveLab... it has to be dithered... end of discussion.

If the file is the same or not doesn't change the fact that it's the best way for the sound quality.

Jesus everybody here is saying that he is a real pro and the only thing I read is crap.
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VOYAGE
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Sinan Guensuer Chief Developer

bblackwood

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2005, 10:09:54 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 20:57

Ohhhh, when the arguments running out from your side I will be kicked in the ass... I see.

You are obviously ignorant of the way this forum works...

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When I sign my real name I'm sure you will find another reason to kick me out.

Again, you are obviously ignorant of the way this forum works. Please look around before making baseless accusations.

Quote:

http://www.emmlabs.com/

Sometimes the truth can be very hurtful?

Indeed, Ed Meitner is the last name in science.

Please...

Can you answer any of my earlier questions or will you simply continue to post the same link over and over?
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

bblackwood

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2005, 10:12:23 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 21:06

What are you trying to achieve? Manipulation?

When you load the file into WaveLab... it has to be dithered... end of discussion.

If the file is the same or not doesn't change the fact that it's the best way for the sound quality.

Jesus everybody here is saying that he is a real pro and the only thing I read is crap.

If you load a 16 bit file into any editor and do nothing to it, no dither is required, period. If you are here to simply insult the professionals that frequent here with your ignorance, showing no proof or reason for your statements, then you will be removed.

So why not tell us why a file extracted at 16 bits requires dither to cut a new CD?
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

TotalSonic

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2005, 10:17:20 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 03:06

What are you trying to achieve? Manipulation?

When you load the file into WaveLab... it has to be dithered... end of discussion.


okey dokey.
But if you read the initial post of this thread you'll see that they were interested in "the best way to make a copy of a Master CD".  In other word we're looking for the process that recovers the data of the original master as accurately as possible.  Which means adding no additional dither.  

Quote:


If the file is the same or not doesn't change the fact that it's the best way for the sound quality.


ummm... no - if you add dither to an unprocessed 16bit file you've changed the sound from the original (in this case by just adding low level noise) for no reason at all.  It might sound subjectively "better" to you - but the added dither is not smoothing out any requantization errors - because we're not requantizing if we are doing direct Digital Audio Extraction!!  So if you're trying to as accurately as possible reproduce the original - you're method is flawed in comparisons to others.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ElectricHead

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2005, 10:32:37 PM »

The only thing you are writing is "You will be removed...", "You will be removed...", "You will be removed...",.

1 hour ago you changed the forum rules, is this some kind of internet fascism?

1. You are completely ignoring the cryogenic thing cos you called it crap without even thinking or researching on it. But there are hundreds of companies... yes even the NASA working very succesful with cryogenic treatment.

2. When you normally rip a CD with WL than you will use the batch process with the master volume.... and dither it best with MBM to 16bit. The file which is dithered with Waves IDR Ultra or MBM Ultra is sounding better than the orignal ripped CD track. Very clearly audible in the frequency extremes.

No please don't throw me out... you are right... the NASA people are real dumb nuts... and also Ed Meitner the Chief developer of DSD... he must be def... and SONY come on they are japs they have strange ears... or?
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VOYAGE
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Sinan Guensuer Chief Developer

bblackwood

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2005, 10:45:13 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 21:32

The only thing you are writing is "You will be removed...", "You will be removed...", "You will be removed...",.

Paranoid?

Good.

Feel honored?

Don't.

People like you don't answer questions or push the envelope, only spew false-hoods and claim oppression.

You think I haven't seen folks like you before?

Quote:

1 hour ago you changed the forum rules, is this some kind of internet fascism?

Sure, call it what you like, I don't care, I'm just tired of dealing with kooks that have zero grounding in anything other than what they 'hear'. I certainly won't lose any sleep over it. This forum is the most popular mastering forum on the internet because people can come here and learn facts, not voodoo fiction.

Quote:

1. You are completely ignoring the cryogenic thing cos you called it crap without even thinking or researching on it. But there are hundreds of companies... yes even the NASA working very succesful with cryogenic treatment.

OK, last chance - show me proof that NASA (or any other serious scientific researcher) is actually researching the effects of cryogenics and audio.

Just one example, please.

If not, drop it.

Quote:

2. When you normally rip a CD with WL than you will use the batch process with the master volume.... and dither it best with MBM to 16bit. The file which is dithered with Waves IDR Ultra or MBM Ultra is sounding better than the orignal ripped CD track. Very clearly audible in the frequency extremes.

Look, no one brought up 'Wavelab' before you. You think it's cool, that's fine, but quit answering real questions about your methodology with generic Wavelab answers - tell us why a 16 bit file sounds better when dithered to 16 bit.

Do you honestly think that the mastering engineers posting here (who probably combine for 50 million copies in record sales) know nothing about extracting digital audio?

Quote:

No please don't throw me out... you are right... the NASA people are real dumb nuts... and also Ed Meitner the Chief developer of DSD... he must be def... and SONY come on they are japs they have strange ears... or?

Straw man arguments all. If you are unwilling to answer actual questions to your methodology, then have a good life elsewhere.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Chris Cavell

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2005, 10:46:58 PM »

Quote:

1. You are completely ignoring the cryogenic thing cos you called it crap without even thinking or researching on it. But there are hundreds of companies... yes even the NASA working very succesful with cryogenic treatment.


NASA Treats certain polycarbonates and other insulating materials cryogenically for reasons that you and the rest of the audio cryo-hypers have completely overlooked.  To the best of my knowledge, NASA does not nor has ever cryogenically treated any component of their systems pertaining to any electronic or data systems...not even cables.  I'm still baffled at how audio-phooey specialists magically leap from structural treatment using liquid neon or liquid helium to freezing CD's with liquid nitrogen (or worse, in your fridge/freezer overnight and claim to acheive miraculous results... Rolling Eyes) without connecting any of the dots inbetween.

Quote:

2. When you normally rip a CD with WL

good so far
Quote:

than you will use the batch process with the master volume


ummm...what the hell for?  Wavelab sure doesn't do this by default...why would you send it through any process at all?  Even if you did, if you left the master section at it's default state with no plugins added, there will be NO change whatsoever in the data, even with 32 bit floating calculations...
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dcollins

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2005, 10:58:45 PM »

ElectricHead wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 19:32


1 hour ago you changed the forum rules, is this some kind of internet fascism?



It's a Brad-tocracy.

Quote:


1. You are completely ignoring the cryogenic thing cos you called it crap without even thinking or researching on it. But there are hundreds of companies... yes even the NASA working very succesful with cryogenic treatment.



Quoting EM
"We also used it with CDs. That was most interesting because it proved a point so well. If you put a CD player into an anechoic chamber, in front of a loudspeaker, and sweep frequency you will find a really vicious peak in the focus servo current around 800Hz, very high Q. The disc resonates and the focus wants to follow it. This current demand modulated the power supply and generates jitter, which is influenced by the acoustic energy going to the CD player from the speakers."

So don't put your CD player in front of the speaker and play 800Hz.  

The servo-feedthrough issue is well known and may be more like AM than the dreaded j*tter anyway.


"Since it's around 800Hz, we have this problem with female voices, if you know somebody who can sing in that frequency range, very loud, they can shut CD players down"

This one has "Mythbusters" written all over it.

Who will be the first to scream at his or her CD player until it stops?

"Stereophile had a whole bunch of their test discs treated. Some were treated and some not. Almost everyone they sent them to agreed that the treated discs sounded better."

And you know how those Stereophile guys always pan new gear and crazy technics.  

I want to hear more about the Green Pen.  It absorbs all the bad light.


"Another thing that happened which was probably even more interesting was that Analog Devices came to us and we treated some 20-bit DAC chips. They sent out untreated and treated chips for people to try and again the same thing happened: the treated ones sounded better. Again, you have mechanical resonances and they are attenuated by reducing the residual stress."

Now here's one you can take right to El Banco.

Analog Devices would love to sell you a "cyro" treated part that gave better performance than stock, they would come up with a snappy name and a surcharge -- a cash cow.

Where is it?

Anyone?

And stop dithering your 16 bit to 16 bit transfers.

You're welcome,

DC

Hallams

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2005, 12:15:36 AM »

Here i am in my little studio in Melbourne watching the CD in my see through Bang and Olsfen CD player spin anti clockwise. I have even done the green texta thing, but for entertainment purposes only as i drew a spiral from the centre to the edge instead of confining my artistry to the edge only of said CD.Incidently, to my great surprise, when i hit play i know the CD sounded superior , particularly in the all important mids, but that is not the purpose of this post. The previous posts remind me of the time an entertaining fellow from "Fatnsassymastering" proceeded to argue with some top mastering engineers on a forum here in Aus. He tried to post anon but it only took a few minutes for someone to track down his identity and web page and the discussion that followed was one of the most entertaining nights on the world wide waste of time i have ever spent.
For a real education visit his site and hit the" why master " link.......and please excuse my ignorance if indeed he turns out to be a genius!!!!
http://www.fatnsassymastering.com


Chris Hallam
Hallamsound Productions
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Ronny

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2005, 12:37:44 AM »



NASA does test their circuits and cables in very cold laboratories, Chris. They have to do that, especially for probes going to the outer planets where it's much colder than a well diggers ass in Alaska, but they don't claim that freezing a cd makes them sound better. Typically they are developing new ways to keep from cold breaking the stuff down, not freezing things to make them work better, but freezing them to be able to design them better to work in the super cold environment of space.


Sinan, now that you have introduced yourself I'll be happy to talk to you. Some of the members on this forum design the best analog gear, digital audio software and digital audio gear on the planet. If you squelch the defensive posture, you can learn a helluva lot. All I ask is that you answer questions based on your own experience, not what you read in audiophile magazines and with an open mind, allow others to explain their views, even if it is opposite of what you have been led to believe.
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Chris Cavell

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2005, 01:20:53 AM »

Quote:

Typically they are developing new ways to keep from cold breaking the stuff down


Definitely...and that's really what I meant.  It's my understanding though that the research is not being conducted on the circuits or electronics, but entirely on the shielding efforts against that extreme environment, namely housings...the alloys and polycarbonite's they are typically constructed from, as well as the thin films used in space based optics.  Sort of a "if the house is strong enough to withstand a hurricane, the stuff inside should be fine" kind of mentality.  NASA's research into super-cold tempering is all about durability against the elements as I understand it...perhaps there's something new (or old) I'm not aware of though.  That's always a possibility; I don't keep up with the physics world like I did when I was a student.
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Art of Vinyl

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Re: What's the best way to make a copy of a Master CD?
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2005, 07:00:40 AM »

A number of years ago, Audio magazine did a double blind test on audio cables with the help of their staff, members of the audiophile "community," and several noted audiophile writers. If I remember correctly, they tested 12 gauge lamp wire against esoteric cable from Spendor, Apogee and a bunch of others. I beleive the result was just about always incorrect.

Sometimes, what the listener believes he or she is hearing is at least as important as what's actually there. It's part ego and part ignorance, but the fact is, broadly, that if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. Even if you can measure it, it doesn't mean you can hear it. For instance, I doubt very much the claim of some audiophiles that they can "hear" a 30 kHz signal. They might sense a harmonic, but then, how do I disprove their claim? I freely admit I can't hear 30,000 cycles, so, I must be inferior. I can accept this as a snobbish audiophile sensibility.

Now - if I client has me remaster something because he "hears" a difference, and I suspect he or she is deluded, I will provide a master with a "fixed" version along with the "original" version. Can you guess which one they pick? They always pick the second one. Can you guess which one is the second one?

What I'm getting at is that green pens, stabilizing "coatings" and supercooled RCA cables may yield a difference in measurement, but a change in barometric pressure can just as easily explain some of this. I mean, a CD is injection molded at around 500 degrees - what can the differential between room temperature and 20 degrees possibly mean in mechanical terms? Sure, the atoms are moving more slowly, but not that much more, and logarithimacally insignificant compared to the difference between the melt, flow and hold points of the polycarbonate. There's more variation induced by placing the disc in the player than anything else. BTW - don't imagine that the CD hole lines up with the player's spindle the same way twice, because it won't.

Real world issues - things that cause EC circuitry to go into action - are the things that need to be addressed in a client master or manufactured product. And as anyone who's been in the pressing business will tell you, there's no such thing as a perfect disc. Go to your CD collection, whip out a Chesky or two and maybe a Water Lily and a Reference Recordings and put them in your checker. Jtttrrrrrr. E 22's. Out of center. Put it in a cheap player: sounds krappy. Put it in your Ayre C-5xe - mmmmmm, good!

In other words, better cables reject noise better, are more consistant impeadance-wise and so forth, but the upper limit is where no one really, actually can hear change. The difference between Wyde Eye cabling and Radio Shack molded-end RCAs does matter, but freezing a disc? Doesn't it get warm as it plays back  (in the warm environment of the player?) Doesn't that cause MORE physical change to the disc DURING playback, which translates in less stability?

Finally - the marginality of any medium (tape, vinyl, CD, etc.) means that we've likely reached the edge of its domain. If it's really an issue, there's whatever is next, i.e., SACD, DVD-A, etc. Otherwise, if it's as good as it can quantifiably be, that's it. And in a world filled with iPods and streaming media, I tend to look askance at those claiming to "hear" unmeasurable improvements.

Of course, the client is always right. For those situations, see paragraph 3. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Thanks again for your patience with what are probably way too many words.
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Art Blavis
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