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Author Topic: Dithering?  (Read 7924 times)

Ronny

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2005, 08:35:58 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 20:31

Ronny wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 19:18


I realize that some of this is remedial, Brad, but remedial used to mean supplying a remedy, the forum title is Mastering Demystified, not mastering for People That Already Know Everything. Please understand from my above post that it may take me longer to understand than others as I don't have a degree in electronics and just aren't going to understand everything as quickly as formally educated folks, without simple clarification.

What many people seem to have lost nowadays is that ignorance isn't an insult but a fact of life for everyone. We all have gaping holes in our knowledge, so the fact that this subject is remedial isn't insulting but rather meant as a reference point for those who know 1% of what you do...

It's not meant as an insult - we all have much to learn!

I just hope that when any of us tread on subjects we're not 100% sure of, we do so carefully, as our posts may unintentionally mislead someone trying to get a grasp on what we're discussing...


Ok, thanks for the reply, that makes me feel better. See it just takes a litte more clarification for me.  Laughing
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chrisj

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2005, 10:16:30 PM »

dcollins wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:33


Has Chris started used conventional FFT's to test the dithers, or some kind of charts  that no one else uses?
DC


Sir! Shocked, shocked, I am, that you would suggest any irregularity in my technical calculations!

Laughing

My own wacky charts, of course, what else? I've never suggested anything else. In fact, this time around, I cheated the dither files to pretend they were 44.101K and SRCed them to 44.1K using virtual analog resampling JUST to attenuate near-Nyquist material somewhat so I could get a better idea of how the high energy noise shapers were working.

I don't know exactly how much I attenuated 22.050K, other than to say that the SRC's stopband attenuation is upwards of 90 db. I did at least process every dither file, and the original high-res file that I was subtracting from the dithers, exactly the same.

*shrug* Anyway, conventional FFTs won't tell you a damned thing about how the dither sounds. According to conventional FFTs and Fletcher Munson, Pow-R 3 should rule all and march on a road of bones, and it doesn't, quite, does it? And they also won't explain the popularity of the Sound Forge dithers, which did very very well in the blind shootout. I have. I identified something the Sound Forge dithers do, that the conventional noise shapers don't.

The Sound Forge may have their own drawbacks (according to Alexey, they do: correlated noise, which is bad) but it's still interesting to learn about. In theory if you do a dither like that in which the noise is NOT correlated, it might kick butt in a serious way.

I've done that, too. The new dither shootout Steve Berson is doing will contain it, and you can see for yourself. I can promise you, Dave, that you'll like it a lot better than goofy old 'Ten Nines'- much better behaved, it is. For that I have Bruno Putzeys to thank- I frankly wouldn't have got it that good without his guidance.

OK?

jfrigo

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2005, 10:20:38 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:31


I just hope that when any of us tread on subjects we're not 100% sure of, we do so carefully, as our posts may unintentionally mislead someone trying to get a grasp on what we're discussing...


Worth remembering. One reason misconceptions spread like wildfire that plenty of people on the internet talk a good story and spread myth as if it were fact. Some do it unintentionally, but some others are just too pig-headed to listen to reason or consider the facts. Hopefully none of us around here will fall into that trap.

So, in that spirit, I will stress that dither was really brought to us by the aliens who built the pyramids.
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dcollins

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2005, 11:19:21 PM »

Ronny wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:18


Yes, I agree I should get the Pohlman book. It's not that I don't believe you right off the bat Dave, I've learned a lot from you, but you are only one person, you are human, you make mistakes like the rest of us and at my age, my memory isn't as good as it was when I was younger, so I can't retain information like I used to and that prones me to making mistakes and why sometimes you notice me covering the same question that I might have asked a year ago.



I thought you had read Pohlman, my mistake.

  http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/12957/831/?SQ=b d1c28695516fb1b42a228415e08723d#msg_12957

I guess this is why we really need some kind of FAQ, as I've been "arguing" d*ther with you as far back as the old webboard, which has must be five years by now!

And the topic isn't even controversial...

Quote:


Also, there is much stuff written that conflicts with what you are compiling and relating from Pohlman, so in that regard it's hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaf.



Ronny, outside of the cranks, I think you'll find that everyone agrees on how d*ther works, which amplitudes and "densities" are correct, etc.

Quote:


There are other factors involved, I don't have a college education and lack the skills to read complex mathematical formulas, this makes it harder for me to understand a lot of the information.



And you're talking to a high-school dropout here.  The bombsight gear, while apocryphal, is a way to visualize the thing.

There are plenty other analogies that don't require any math.

Quote:


they didn't have consumer computers when I was in school and consequently everything that I have learned is from my own experience



Well, we did have an ASR-33 at my school, so you're got me there!

DC

Ronny

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2005, 12:10:09 AM »

dcollins wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 23:19

Ronny wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:18


Yes, I agree I should get the Pohlman book. It's not that I don't believe you right off the bat Dave, I've learned a lot from you, but you are only one person, you are human, you make mistakes like the rest of us and at my age, my memory isn't as good as it was when I was younger, so I can't retain information like I used to and that prones me to making mistakes and why sometimes you notice me covering the same question that I might have asked a year ago.



I thought you had read Pohlman, my mistake.

 http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/12957/831/?SQ=b d1c28695516fb1b42a228415e08723d#msg_12957

I guess this is why we really need some kind of FAQ, as I've been "arguing" d*ther with you far back as the old webboard, which has got to be five years by now!

And the topic isn't even controversial!

Quote:


Also, there is much stuff written that conflicts with what you are compiling and relating from Pohlman, so in that regard it's hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaf.



I think you'll find, that outside of the cranks, everyone agrees on how d*ther works, what amplitudes and "densitys" are correct, etc.

Quote:


There are other factors involved, I don't have a college education and lack the skills to read complex mathematical formulas, this makes it harder for me to understand a lot of the information.



And you're talking to a high-school dropout here.  The bombsight gear, while apocryphal, is a way to visualize the thing.

There and plenty other analogies that don't require any math.

Quote:


they didn't have consumer computers when I was in school and consequently everything that I have learned is from my own experience



Well, we did have an ASR-33 at my school, so you're got me there!

DC



Yes, I know how dither works and why it's beneficial, I think we've agreed on dither and dispelling voodoo science and argued more about other things, but my only mistake was where the dither is applied, I hear BK and others say that it's noise applied around 3dB, I read my gear manuals they say 4.8dB SNR loss with TPDF but no modulation, on another that it's applied to the single bit, with option to apply it at the half bit or .2, .3 etc bit. I see dither on Digicheck at around +3dB above the noise floor of each bit depth when audio isn't playing. This same disussion on Glenn's board, someone said that the dither was applied at 16 bit when 16 bit was enabled in IDR L2, I seem to remember Glenn saying that it was applied at the LSB of 24 bit. Daniel, Bob Orban, Goran, no one corrected him, maybe I mistook him and he was just saying that it was applied while the signal was 24 bit. At my level of understanding digital, it only made sense that it's applied before the quantizer and that it would perform the same function on the quantization applied at the 24th bit, as it would applied across 9 bits, so my confusion seems to be at what gain it's applied at. If it's applied to 9 bits before the quantizer, first time that I've heard this was reading Nika's paper, not from anyone on this forum or Glenn's that I can recall until now, than how can it be only +3dB when it's applied? It would be more like +51dB, these numbers I've never heard being discussed on any of the many, many dither discussions on any of the newsgroups. When they say that dither is noise at +3dB, I take it they mean the noise level after the quantization and not when it's actually applied, is this correct? I did a 2 hour google search to find information about where dither is applied and came up with nothing, except Nika's paper, which I read when it first came out but didn't remember the 9 bits thing. Understand why I've assumed that dither was applied to the LSB of 24 bit?
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dcollins

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2005, 12:22:19 AM »

Ronny wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 21:10


I did a 2 hour google search to find informat on about where dither is applied and came up with nothing, except Nika's paper, which I read when it first came out but didn't remember the 9 bits thing. Understand why I've assumed that dither was applied to the LSB of 24 bit?


Well, when you do a Google search, the .edu domain is a good place to start.

If there's a site that says when you dither to 16 bits you add noise at -144, I'd like to see it.....

DC

Jerry Tubb

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2005, 12:30:17 AM »

I've gotten in the bad habit of loaning my books to engineer buddies, never  returned, can't remember who I loaned them to. Included in this list:

1. Pohlman's book

2. Everest's books

3. Audio Cyclopedia

4. Gary Larsen collection.

lose a few books.... make a few friends.... fair trade ! (Lao Tzu ?)
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Ronny

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2005, 12:36:12 AM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 17 August 2005 00:22

Ronny wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 21:10


I did a 2 hour google search to find informat on about where dither is applied and came up with nothing, except Nika's paper, which I read when it first came out but didn't remember the 9 bits thing. Understand why I've assumed that dither was applied to the LSB of 24 bit?


Well, when you do a Google search, the .edu domain is a good place to start.

If there's a site that says when you dither to 16 bits you add noise at -144, I'd like to see it.....

DC



Great tip, I just googled Audio Dither .edu and it pulled up over 6,000 hits all with .edu domains. You ain't bad for a high school dropout.
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Ronny

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2005, 02:08:35 AM »



Here's some stuff that I just compiled.


Dither
Dithering is the answer to low-level quantization error. An uncorrelated white noise signal with an amplitude slightly less than one quantization level is added to the original signal before sampling. The noise signal is called the dither.

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~jglettle/section/digita laudio/intro.html

Less than one quantization level, not sure what that means. It would imply that it's added below the 16th bit, if they are calling one quantization level as losing the 8 bits. Still confused.


Dither
Dither is the process of adding low-level analog noise to a signal, to randomize or "confuse" the quantizer's small-signal behavior. Dither specifically aims to address two problems in quantization. The first of which is that a reverberating, decaying signal can fall below the lower limit of the system resolution. That is to say that an attempt to encode a signal below the LSB results in nothing getting encoded. Clearly,
information is lost. The second, as discussed in the previous section, is that system distortion increases as a percent of a decreasing input signal. It is important to note
that not only does dither remove some quantization error from the signal, it effectively removes it.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~erick205/Papers/paper.html#dither

It's been my understanding that dither spreads the quantization errors out, so that they become less audible, not remove them completely.


Dither
Literally, dither is noise added intentionally to a digital recording. Low level signals are difficult for digital gear to record; the sampling machine simply has difficulty deciding whether the necessary bits should be turned on or off, creating "quantization noise." By adding a small amount of very controlled noise to the original signal, the bits can be made to positively switch on or off, improving low level sound resolution.

http://www.mus1171.neu.edu/glossary/TERMS/DITHER.HTM


This is the closest that I could find to dither being added to more than one bit, but than they say that it allows their system to encode amplitudes smaller than the least significan bit, there's that LSB talk again that has led to my confusion, they reference Pohlman at the bottom.

Dither
A well-design digitization system must be able to suppress
any audible effects of its quantization error. One could
increase the number of bits in the quantizing word, which
would result in a decrease in error amplitude of 6 dB per
each additional bit. However, this is a rather uneconomical
solution, as many bits are necessary to reduce effectively
the audibility of the quantization error. Additionally, the
error will always be significant with low-level signals,
which are quite common. Dither seems to offer a more
elegant solution. Dither is a small amount of noise added to
the audio signal before sampling. This causes the audio
signal to shift with respect to quantization levels.
Quantization error is thus decorelated from the signal and
the effects of the quantization error become negligible.
Dither does not prevent the quantization error; instead, it
allows the system to encode amplitudes smaller than the
least significant bit.

www.africandl.org/research/audio_digitization.pdf

Bit of a conflict from above where they say that it removes quantization errors.


Here's one from Berklee School of  Music that I ran across where he's saying to not dither to 16 bit after the signal is dithered at 24 bit and it remains at 24 after the mastering plug-in.

The Last Step
To finish, you need to bring your mix back down to 16-bit format to burn it to an audio CD through the process called dithering. If you were to convert it back to 16 bit without dithering, you would simply be truncating the lowest eight bits and introducing quantization errors. Dithering corrects for these errors before converting from 24 to 16 bit, allowing the song to retain the sound quality you've been hearing all along. Your maximizer plug-in most likely does the dithering, though the file itself
remains at 24 bit after processing. When you save it from your audio editor, do so in 16-bit format without applying any further dither. After the maximizing and dithering steps, you're done. Nothing further should be done to the file other than burning it to audio CD. If you need to make changes go back to your original unmastered file, call up the plug-ins and presets you've saved, tweak and reprocess.

http://www.berklee.edu/bt/162/mastering.html



So far I haven't been able to locate any information that specifically mentions adding noise at the 16th bit, the other hits all say pretty much the same thing, very low random noise, but no mention of level or where it's applied. The hits went from audio dither to graphics dither pretty fast.  There were some conflicting comments even on the edu sites. No surprise that there is so much conflicting information on the recording newsgroups.

Here's one where Benchmark Media Systems say that their dither is a whopping 14dB better than TPDF 16 bit. I've been using TPDF, I think Brad mentioned that he uses TPDF and thought that you guys might like to see it.

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/appnotes-d/wrl.html


The reason why you probably thought that I read Pohlman, DC is because I quoted some of his information that I pulled off the net, on a discussion that we had about bit depth a long while back. I'll definitely read his full book though, it's way past time that I did.

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Oliver

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2005, 11:42:28 AM »

This is a great discussion for someone like me, who knows very little about the ins and outs of dither. So, I've read BK's book, I'm in the middle of Nika's, and I plan on buying Pohlman's next time it's convenient. Are there any other must-reads? I'd google stuff but I don't feel comfortable enough with this stuff to judge what's valid and what's poo-poo.
Thanks,
Oliver.

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chrisj

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2005, 11:55:39 AM »

*whew* no wonder you're having trouble. Some of that is nonsense.

Truth:

Flat dither is random noise applied so its maximum possible peak range covers a space equal to EXACTLY one least significant bit- whatever that may be, be it 24, 16 or 8 bit. It is applied first, and then you just truncate.

TPDF is random noise applied so its maximum possible peak range covers a space equal to EXACTLY one least significant bit- twice. You use two separate noise sources, not one at twice the loudness, and it results in a dither where the combined maximum peak can go as high as two least significant bits- whatever those may be. Then you truncate. Because it's two sources, the randomness results in a statistical distribution where it's less likely for the peak to be that high. If you plotted the distribution, it would be triangular in shape, hence the name Triangular Probability Density Function.

Nonsense: (from each source in turn)

The amplitude isn't 'less than' one quantization level unless you mean 'usually less'. When you say correlated it actually doesn't mean the noise source you're using, it means that the RESULTING noise floor should not fluctuate with the music.

It doesn't 'confuse' the quantizer, just sort of statistically averages it out. Your idea that dither only diminishes the quantization error isn't really correct- what happens is that you get a blast of noise that really, truly, is indistinguishable from hi-res noise. I didn't believe this myself until I tried it with really correct dithering. If you just truncate loud white noise you can hear a difference. If you dither the loud white noise and truncate THAT, suddenly you can't hear a difference anymore. It's a hell of a neat trick, honestly.

The bits have a perfectly easy time 'deciding' whether to switch on and off- the trouble is that very gradual signal changes get encoded as stretches of no change interspersed with abrupt jumps! This is no strain on the quantizer. It's happy to dump inharmonic grunge into the sound Wink

It depends how you look at it, whether it 'removes' quantization errors. We mean 'to the ear', we mean 'the sound of truncation'. You must remember that even so, quantization is happening. It's just happening in such a way that information is allowed to get through. You can say 'dither does not prevent the quantization error' but it still prevents the EFFECT of the quantization error, by turning it into a result indistinguishable from the high-res sound with simultaneous noise.

The guy from Berklee is being unhelpful- for some reason he's saying, add dither, and then depend on the process of saving to 16 bit which will automatically truncate the resolution. This is dumb: suppose some future 'save as 16 bit' dithered a 24 bit signal, as it should be doing in the first place? Ignore him.

Benchmark Media must be doing some kind of noise shaper. That's different. There might be a penalty- they're talking about 'at some particular frequency', and other frequencies like highs might be 24 db worse for all you know.

Is that any help? As far as the 'level' question- use one or two noise sources, each peak at EXACTLY one LSB, if you used two you have TPDF and peak at one-plus-one LSB.

Ronny

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2005, 12:42:45 PM »

chrisj wrote on Wed, 17 August 2005 11:55

*whew* no wonder you're having trouble. Some of that is nonsense.

Truth:

Flat dither is random noise applied so its maximum possible peak range covers a space equal to EXACTLY one least significant bit- whatever that may be, be it 24, 16 or 8 bit. It is applied first, and then you just truncate.


I've heard this many times and it implies that the noise is applied to the LSB and than truncated, meaning if we are going from 24 to 16 bit, it's applied before the quantizer at the LSB of 24 bit. What LSB are you talking about Chris, the LSB when the dither noise is applied or the final depth after the quantization? Do you see the conflict of what you are saying and the noise being applied at the 16th bit as DC and Brad are saying? 9 bits of noise if the signal is 24 bit before the quantizer when the noise is applied, noise would than be +51dB, if the dither was +3dB like I've also heard many times, than if it's applied in the 24 bit depth, it would be around -141dB. I don't get the EXACTLY one significant bit, it it's applied at exactly one bit, which is what I've thought before this discussion, how can it be applied at the 16th bit, 16th bit is not the LSB until after the quantization and the dither is applied before quantization. One thing that I do know, if you apply a 3dB signal to 24 bit and quantize to 16 bit, there will be 3dB signal in the final depth.



Quote:

Is that any help? As far as the 'level' question- use one or two noise sources, each peak at EXACTLY one LSB, if you used two you have TPDF and peak at one-plus-one LSB.


Actually not much help as it conflicts with dither being added across 9 bits. Can you clarify what depth you mean by LSB? LSB of 24 bit before quantization or LSB of 16 bit after quantization?
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chrisj

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2005, 12:52:29 PM »

Ronny wrote on Wed, 17 August 2005 12:42


I've heard this many times and it implies that the noise is applied to the LSB and than truncated, meaning if we are going from 24 to 16 bit, it's applied before the quantizer at the LSB of 24 bit. What LSB are you talking about Chris, the LSB when the dither noise is applied or the final depth after the quantization? Do you see the conflict of what you are saying and the noise being applied at the 16th bit as DC and Brad are saying? 9 bits of noise if the signal is 24 bit before the quantizer when the noise is applied, noise would than be +51dB, if the dither was +3dB like I've also heard many times, than if it's applied in the 24 bit depth, it would be around -141dB. I don't get the EXACTLY one significant bit, it it's applied at exactly one bit, which is what I've thought before this discussion, how can it be applied at the 16th bit, 16th bit is not the LSB until after the quantization and the dither is applied before quantization. One thing that I do know, if you apply a 3dB signal to 24 bit and quantize to 16 bit, there will be 3dB signal in the final depth.


*head-explody*  Shocked

No no no, slow down.

Dither (flat) or dither+dither (tpdf) is applied at a level equal to the LSB of the OUTPUT TRUNCATED VERSION.

I have never, ever, heard of anyone calculating it by how many LSBs of the high resolution file it would occupy. What if you were at 64 bit floating point? Totally different answer- measuring it by the 16 bit truncated output, simple and direct answer.

The dither level does not RELATE to the high resolution's data storage format, at all. Not the slightest amount. It relates only and solely to the LSB of what you are going to end up with. (I'm also not used to looking at it in db terms, because it's so intimately bound up with the LSB of the output truncated format)

Phillip Graham

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2005, 01:53:28 PM »

Oliver wrote on Wed, 17 August 2005 11:42

This is a great discussion for someone like me, who knows very little about the ins and outs of dither. So, I've read BK's book, I'm in the middle of Nika's, and I plan on buying Pohlman's next time it's convenient. Are there any other must-reads? I'd google stuff but I don't feel comfortable enough with this stuff to judge what's valid and what's poo-poo.
Thanks,
Oliver.




Hey Oliver,

I have attached to this message the grandaddy of them all on this particular topic.  Namely C.E. Shannon's "A Mathematical Theory of Communication."

This paper is at the core of this discussion, as he outlined the fundamentals of quantitizing signals in the presence of noise.

Before that Shannon's masters thesis showed that relays could be used to solve boolean logic problems.

That makes Shannon the father of both digital logic circuits and information theory.  Not a bad resume!  Shocked
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Sam Lord

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Re: Dithering?
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2005, 03:20:12 PM »

dcollins wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 17:33

Sam Lord wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 11:00

 No kidding, your dither comparison sits at the top of my "Technical Papers" file above about 200 others.  You go!  Sam


Has Chris started used conventional FFT's to test the dithers, or some kind of charts  that no one else uses?

DC
I haven't a clue.  I barely looked at the graphs.  I just like his explanations and the test article, even though Robin Schmidt ran the tests.  I like posts that inform without BS.  FWIW, I have always understood the general purpose and creation of dither, and know that there are countless articles on dither in the pro audio universe.  But my memory is pretty bad, so I collect lots of quick-and-dirty summaries of info which I'll surely forget.  I am not an ME, will likely never be, but since understanding dither is important for anyone in recording I found the combination of subjective talk and speculation on cause very useful.  Just like I enjoy your one-line quips and focus.  You're one of the stars here, not by virtue of your monster discography, but because you take the time to kill misconceptions, a priceless gift to recording newbies like me.  I do sometimes do the same with the rare posts about playback, where my expertise lies.  Sam    
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