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Author Topic: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....  (Read 1896 times)

matucha

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Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« on: August 11, 2005, 02:15:36 AM »

  Rolling Eyes

Quote:

The goal of the Crystalizer is to restore the sound of the original recording (as it existed before mastering the CD) through a kind of "reverse engineering" that applies corrections that are the inverse of the ones typically used during mastering.


http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20050705/x-fi-02.html
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Trillium Sound

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2005, 08:02:25 AM »

Oh! That is fine, I will start a new business:
An Unmastering Studio

...and also write a book called:

"How to become an UnMastering Engineer" Rolling Eyes
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2005, 08:18:18 AM »

You'd think this would finally be the wake-up call to labels that turning music into 2-by-4's to bludgeon people with is a less than prudent business strategy.  When a mass-market company like Creative Labs calls them out it's a good bet that consumers are not being fooled anymore.  To quote from CL "...it re-masters and selectively enhances the audio by analyzing and identifying which parts of the audio stream have been restricted or damaged during the dynamic compression stages..."

The Automatic volume feature might be a good thing, however.  If it works well, it might make more naturally mastered music less disadvantaged by the blaring competition.
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Ronny

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 10:41:40 AM »

AlanS wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 08:18

You'd think this would finally be the wake-up call to labels that turning music into 2-by-4's to bludgeon people with is a less than prudent business strategy.  When a mass-market company like Creative Labs calls them out it's a good bet that consumers are not being fooled anymore.  To quote from CL "...it re-masters and selectively enhances the audio by analyzing and identifying which parts of the audio stream have been restricted or damaged during the dynamic compression stages..."

The Automatic volume feature might be a good thing, however.  If it works well, it might make more naturally mastered music less disadvantaged by the blaring competition.



Although it's good that a company like Creative would attempt to restore "typically mastered" material, Alan, they are way off base when they bring up the quantization from 24 bit to 16 as a factor in losing dynamic range. Yes, we all know that 24 bit has a lower theoretical noise floor than 16 bit, however all of the audible information in the 24 quantized with dither word is contained in the 16 bit word. The quantization process does not alter RMS or crest factor, only raises noise floor of the systems minimum RMS power. Maximum RMS power, average RMS, total RMS power, peak decibels and crest factor remain the same in both examples.

The example (at the top) of a 24 bit song quantized to 16 bit (at the bottom). It's incorrect to assume that you lose "audible dynamics" with a 24 to 16 bit word reduction.

11:36 AM 8/11/2005


   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -28604.85   -31305.82
Max Sample Value:   27987.25   28866.58
Peak Amplitude:   -1.18 dB   -.4 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   -.001    -.001
Minimum RMS Power:   -99.9 dB   -96.85 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -5.76 dB   -4.86 dB
Average RMS Power:   -17.34 dB   -18.43 dB
Total RMS Power:   -16.66 dB   -17.37 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   24 Bits   24 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms



   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -28602   -31307
Max Sample Value:   27991   28871
Peak Amplitude:   -1.18 dB   -.4 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   -.001    -.001
Minimum RMS Power:   -73.67 dB   -73.71 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -5.76 dB   -4.86 dB
Average RMS Power:   -17.34 dB   -18.43 dB
Total RMS Power:   -16.66 dB   -17.37 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms


This statement:

"The instruments that are most affected by the dynamic compression applied during mastering operations are obviously those that produce the most transients. For the sound engineer, it's much more comfortable to compress these in order to make them fit easily into the dynamic range offered by 16 bit quantification."

That's not the reason that ME's use final compression or limiting, they compress to raise perceived levels and they do it when the material is 24 bit, it's preposterous to think that ME's limit to store the 24 bit word more effectively within the 16 bit word, it's all about having the material perceived louder and has little to do with retaining dynamic range on word reductions, it's moot to say the least, because hyperlimiting lowers peak levels while raising low level information.

Their before and after graphs don't show me much either, what I see mainly is that peak is raised, however with the final level of a mastered song, the peak level is going to be at the top of the dB axis. So the before example mainly displays that the overall gain is lower on the before clip.

This statement tells me that they are confusing data compression with dynamic compression.

"The processing is also capable of clearly improving the reproduction of compressed sound, such as MP3s." A consumer statement if I've ever heard one. High end designers have been working on algo's to restore dynamic range for over 10 years now and no one has gotten the cigar. So now Creative a consumer company, known more for their soundblaster cards that unnecessarily resample 44.1k material to 48k have come to the rescue and want us to believe that they have succeeded when designers with more knowledge have fallen short of effectively  restoring dynamic range on hypercompressed material.

That said, I do agree with you that it is beneficial that someone, anyone, is recognizing that pancaking the music isn't the answer and are at least trying to do something about it, but they don't need to throw this off on ME's that are only doing what their clients request. The article is blanketly blaming ME's for doing their job and I see the motive as profit orientated and not true concern for the sad state of music at the present. They are just jumping on the band wagon, because they have heard the complaints, but I'll be damn surprised if they are going to be the first company to really restore hyperlimiting.  
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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2005, 12:25:06 PM »

Yeah, the whole ad copy is filled with obfuscating technobabble, but the fact remains that the underlying message of their product is that today's mastered CDs sound like crap even on computer speakers.   One of the label suits' arguments against sane mastering levels is that most music is listened to on computers and ipods where crushed mastering is "needed," but Creative's logic repudiates that.
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2005, 12:56:18 PM »

Don't believe a single word the ad is stating, all hogwash.

using the term "crystalizer" indicates they are trying to appeal to the "new age" folks, more prone to believe in magical thinking.

reverse engineering ???  howbout reversing consumers from their cash.

First of all, the "before" waveform bears no resemblance to a mastered waveform.

Someone should contact Tom's Hardware with the facts.

Should someone obtain the product to see what it actually does, if anything?
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matucha

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 12:58:05 PM »

but look at those waveforms, in fact they are making everything LOUD and all the peaks are full scale, not smashed but they bring low-level material up... isn't that strangely familiar? It could be anything from transientshaper to any form of expander-compressor, but for sure it tries to make things louder Wink. IMO it is funny.
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Trillium Sound

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 01:11:55 PM »

matucha wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 12:58

but look at those waveforms, in fact they are making everything LOUD and all the peaks are full scale, not smashed but they bring low-level material up... isn't that strangely familiar? It could be anything from transientshaper to any form of expander-compressor, but for sure it tries to make things louder Wink. IMO it is funny.


Agree, maybe that is what they call reverse engineering :expander compression = reverse engineering ??
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Arf! Mastering

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 02:47:04 PM »

You're missing the elephant in the room.  Creative is saying their pre-fab process will correct, repair, and improve any professionally mastered major label release.  Whether they can or not is besides the point.  What is key is that they obviously are aware that so many consumers think "mastered" CDs sound like utter crap that the ad hype will be believed.  Is our entire industry so  arrogant as to think that if the customer is constantly fed crap they won't notice and there will never be a backlash?   The very premise of the Creative sales copy shows how far off the deep end the entire record production community has gone.
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“A working class hero is something to be,
Keep you doped with religion and sex and T.V.”
John Lennon

"Large signals can actually be counterproductive.  If I scream at you over the phone, you don’t hear me better. If I shine a bright light in your eyes, you don’t see better.”
Dr. C.T. Rubin, biomechanical engineer

silverdisk

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 02:55:16 PM »

The dbx dynamic range expander was made for the old school Hi-Fi  croud years ago....    and it didnt catch on.    Its supposed benefits were almost exaclty the same as those claimed by creative labs. Reversing damage of the production process


 http://cgi.ebay.com/DBX-MODEL-2BX-2-BAND-DYNAMIC-RANGE-EXPAN  DER_W0QQitemZ5795954939QQcategoryZ14978QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem
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Ronny

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 03:29:47 PM »

AlanS wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 14:47

You're missing the elephant in the room.  Creative is saying their pre-fab process will correct, repair, and improve any professionally mastered major label release.  Whether they can or not is besides the point.  What is key is that they obviously are aware that so many consumers think "mastered" CDs sound like utter crap that the ad hype will be believed.  Is our entire industry so  arrogant as to think that if the customer is constantly fed crap they won't notice and there will never be a backlash?   The very premise of the Creative sales copy shows how far off the deep end the entire record production community has gone.



Very true, Alan, we can all benefit by the exposure that this product will give to the loudness wars regardless of it's effectiveness, however they'd be better off if they were armed with the facts and didn't point the finger at just ME's. That's my main gripe. They should broadband the blame to cover A&R, label execs and the low profile producers and artists that are pancaking the material so that it sounds competitive to what has become standard market levels for many genres and more and more isolated genres falling into the same trap.
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compasspnt

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 05:15:22 PM »

Firstly, thanks Ronny...very succinctly and well stated.


AlanS wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 14:47

You're missing the elephant in the room.  Creative is saying their pre-fab process will correct, repair, and improve any professionally mastered major label release.  Whether they can or not is besides the point.  What is key is that they obviously are aware that so many consumers think "mastered" CDs sound like utter crap that the ad hype will be believed.



Perhaps Alan.  But it may well be that they expect to EDUCATE the public to the dangers of over-compressed music, and hence the need for their product, rather than expecting that they already know it en masse.  Typical marketing strategy!
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chd

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 06:07:20 PM »

LOL,

Creative is running dry on "creative" ideas to sell their sh*t.
Someone form Creative must have been lurking around these forums, noticed the omnipresent opinion on the "hotness" of contemporary mastered material and then sent a memo to the product development team.
Wonder what this thing would do on unprocessed material though ))))  Cool
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matucha

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Re: Creative Labs Crystalizer - oh my....
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2005, 08:11:38 AM »

nothing, it recognizes it is OK and do nothing  Laughing
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