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Author Topic: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...  (Read 4152 times)

Walter Odington

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Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« on: August 10, 2005, 05:08:46 AM »

I was wondering what peoples opinions were on practices and equipment for field recordings.

I myself have to go out and record the sounds of the city, the public transport, animals at the zoo (boo to zoos), sounds from the great outdorrs, rivers etc etc.

So far I'm using a minidisc and cheap omni, but want to tackle things more professionaly. I dont really like to use a lossless codec on the recording, but what hand held alternatives are there? I do have a powerbook. Shame iPods dont have an ADC (though I would not expect it to be of high quality). Maybe a Metric Halo I/O is good on the move? Any experiences of people wandering aound with big bags of computer gear whilst making HD recordings?

Anyone got any general advice?

Thanks in Advance

Zaireeka

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2005, 12:20:55 PM »

portable DAT's are fairly common for this kind of thing, you can get one for under
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2005, 06:52:16 AM »

Portable DAT, but if you are using the more "walkman" style types (Sony TCD-D7 or D8) you will need an external mixer that can supply phantom power...

HHB used to make the Portadat in 2 versions: with TC or without TC. That's got all you need right there.

Fostex PD-4: 3 channel mixer integrated with a good transport. The PD-2 is rarer, mainly because it's older and didn't sell as well as the 4.

Next, lose the cheap omni. Actually, that should have been first. Very Happy

Assuming you want stereo, you have a veritable plethora of options. Here's a few:
Shure VP-88. Point source. Not bad...until you have to crank the gain to get the really quiet stuff, then it's a bit noisy.
Sennheiser MKH 418. Point source MS mic. This will have to be decoded in post, but it can give you more control. Upside to this mic is that the M mic IS a 416.
AKG CK1x's with either 451 or 460 bodies. Whack the heads into a Rycote sphere for great coincident stereo atmoses.
Rode NT-4. I haven't used it. Some swear by it. Being a Rode, I usually swear AT them. Again, some kind of Zeppelin is essential if your going to be outdoors.
Schoeps Stereo Spere. Fantastic...but I wouldn't feel good about taking it outdoors.
Crown SASS. Various versions. Pick your own poison. If your source sound is closer than about 2' you can end up with a "hole in the middle" effect. I don't mind these at all, but they are a little bulky.

If you don't have good windsocks, you are completely screwed.

Assuming you may want to record to HD, Sound Devices 722 would be ideal, or a 744 allowing you to simultaneously record a stereo AND a mono.

There are plenty of other HD recorders out there. Deva, HHB, Aaton Cantar to name a few...

Your best bet is to hire this stuff from Samuelsons or another film hire joint, rather than having to shell out the big bucks for the good stuff.

Or you could just buy the BBC sound effects discs and be done with it. Very Happy

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Tim

[Edit: damn afterthoughts! Rolling Eyes ]
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TB-AV

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2005, 10:51:15 AM »

Check out the Edirol R-4 or R-1

Edirol.com
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mtw00

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2005, 02:40:19 PM »

I've been using a Marantz PMD660.  You've got the option of 128k MP3, and 44.1/44k wav.  2 pre-amps with 48v and some handy features.  (e.g. when recording, if you hit pause, then pause again a new track is created)

The stock compact flash card is way too small and it sucks up batteries like crazy, but the sound quality is decent and it's nice and portable.  Plus you don't have to deal with DAT tapes.  I've used it with a Sennheiser shotgun and stereo Earthworks TC30Ks (omni) with good results.


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Greg Youngman

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2005, 10:03:10 AM »

Edirol R-1.  Using one with AT-822, Rode NT4, Sennheiser ME-67 mics for FX recording for small film and video productions.  The only thing I don't like about it is the record level indicator is slow in responding, not calibrated and not stereo.  But, once you get used to this limitation, it is a fabulous recorder for what you want to use it for.  You get almost 2 hours of stereo 16 bit 44.1 wav files on a 2 Gb flash card.  Runs well on Duracell 2050 mAh, NiMH rechargeable batteries (2 x AA). MUCH better than dealing with DAT.
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Antonw

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2005, 04:42:27 AM »

Hi,

I'm a very happy Sound devices 722 owner, great unit but you pay for it. ($2375)
I've heard great things done with the Edirol R-4 (plus its 4 ch!) which can be had for about $1200 i believe.
Another option i've been hearing a lot about recently is the new M-audio Microtracker, but at this point you might want to avoid that unit because of firmware bugs (but its moderatly priced around $400)
I've rented a Marantz 670 but it definantly wasnt for me, the pre-amps are loud mofo's.
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Anton Woldhek
Utrecht School of Music Technology - Sound Design student
Latest Freesound: Coot in the City. http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=7916

davidl

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2005, 04:43:31 PM »

I'm a DISsatisfied Sound Devices 744T owner. It's too fiddley, has a ridiculously crowded LCD screen that is badly illuminated, and too many critical functions are in software rather than being controlled by knobs. The people who designed it seem to have listened only to film recordists, not to those of us who do field work recording musicians.

If it's within your budget, I suggest you get a Nagra V. If not, then look around for a Portadat, whose shortcomings are: 1) it's 16 bit, rather than 24 bit; 2) it uses DAT tape; 3) it has Japanese preamps, rather than the far better Sound Devices versions.

Mics:

A pair of EV RE50ND.

A pair of really good small diaphragm cardioids (I use KM84s)

A really good bidirectional (Iuse a Senn MKH30).

I use the KM84s as a crossed pair for recording rituals in Tibetan temples.

A Rycote stereo windscreen containing one of the 84s with the MKH30 works well for making Mid-Side recordings, both outdoors and indoors. Let's say I'm recording two or three musicians in a remote Himalayan village, a vocalist or solo instrumentalist with accompanying singers & musicians: I use the Mid-Side rig, with the soloist centred in the image, and the other performers to left and right. The Rycote prevents them from getting too close to the mics. This configuration works very nicely outdoors, too.

NB: For Mid-Side recording, the recorder MUST provide Mid-Side monitoring. The Portadat and Sound Devices boxes offer this function. Most of the cheap units don't.

The RE50ND are handholdable omnis. When I'm recording outdoors, and the sound from the Mid-Side rig doesn't please me, I switch to the RE50s, holding one in each hand, as far apart as necessary.

Get a really sturdy headset, something that can withstand abuse when you're in remote places. I still use a Koss 4AA.

Mic cables: Three sets, a pair of 50', a pair of 15', and a pair of 5' for handheld recording.

Batteries: Lots.

Unpretentious baggage. All my critical equipment travels in a daypack.

Field backups:

If you go the Portadat route, also get a Walkdat and the appropriate digital cable. It's important to make backups as you go along. Carry two different brands of DAT tapes. One batch could be bad, but the other should be OK. I make original recordings on one brand, the backup on the second brand.

If you go the HD recorder route, add a laptop with DVD burner to your ensemble. Transfer the recordings to laptop & burn to DVD.

Salutations, David Lewiston
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2005, 07:32:35 AM »

davidl wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 04:43

I'm a DISsatisfied Sound Devices 744T owner. It's too fiddley, has a ridiculously crowded LCD screen that is badly illuminated, and too many critical functions are in software rather than being controlled by knobs. The people who designed it seem to have listened only to film recordists, not to those of us who do field work recording musicians.





Well, I guess in the portable field recorder market, the film guys are the majority. The fact that the unit is versatile enough to be able to cover more than one base - as are the Nagra, Deva, Aaton Cantar and all of the other devices - speaks to good design.

Apparently there has been a recent software release for the 422 which may address some of the issues you raise.


Anyhoo, the original poster was enquiring about sound fx recording - not music...

Your suggestions about backups in the field are sage advice..

Cheers,
Tim
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davidl

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2005, 08:36:49 AM »

Recording sound effects in the field has more in common with music recording than film work.

The *software* updates of the SD machines can't remedy what is fundamentally a lame design.

The designer couldn't even get the outer case right. Recently, SD realised that the A/D card was defective, and supplied corrected cards to users. So far, so good. It took me five minutes to open the case, and one minute to swap the card. Then I spent three hours trying to fit the case together, without success. Called tech support the following morning. The chap talked me through the process, again without success, and I wound up having to Fedex it to SD at my own expense just to have the case closed!

Every pro recorder I've used since the Stellavox in the early '70s has had a case that opened and closed easily. This isn't rocket science.

At the SD website, 744 users who record all 4 channels complain that there's no way to monitor all of them at the same time. I wonder how long it will take the company to deal with this issue.

My advice to field recordists with a decent budget: Get a Nagra.

David Lewiston
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Antonw

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2005, 04:25:09 PM »

Thanks for the Mike suggestions David, they are useful to me also. I also like the suggestion of a unpretentious bag, what kind of bag do (did) you use for the 744? Currently im using a DV cam bag where i punctured it to be able to use normal xlr connector, however its a little short on the sides which makes accessing the phone and menu button a bit of a pain.  
 I understand your grieves with the 744, although i don't share them because i don't need that functionality. There are other things about the 7-series that are in need of improvement.
Im thinking about the lack of a delete function. And also (see a recent post of mine on the SD forum) the lack of BEXT chuck date on the 722.

PS: why are rycotes so ridiculously expensive? (And why is the DPA windpak so truely insanely expensive)
PPS: EV RE50ND-B, its looks nice from the spec, thanks for putting my attention onto this one. Although im saving up for a M/S setup at the moment this does like a great mike to keep around for the on the go recordings.
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Anton Woldhek
Utrecht School of Music Technology - Sound Design student
Latest Freesound: Coot in the City. http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=7916

davidl

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2005, 01:22:24 AM »

Antonw wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 10:25


PPS: EV RE50ND-B, its looks nice from the spec, thanks for putting my attention onto this one. Although im saving up for a M/S setup at the moment this does like a great mike to keep around for the on the go recordings.


I've used these very modestly priced mics for lots of successful recordings. In Bali this pair is all I use. Gamelan is meant to be heard outdoors, and a spaced pair of well-behaved omnis works wonders. To get an idea of their quality, listen to the Nonesuch Explorer "Bali: Gamelan & Kecak" and Bridge Records "Kecak, a Balinese Music Drama." A pair of spaced RE50s captured all of this. They also worked wonderfully well for many Himalayan recordings. Although they're dynamic, and roll off below 100 Hz and above 13 kHz, you'd never know it from the recordings. As said earlier, they're very well-behaved.

To anyone thinking of buying a used pair on Ebay, a caution: the RE50 consists of a small RE635a mic inside a handholdable casing, with foam in between the two. The foam degrades with time. No way to tell how old the mics are, and the condition of capsule & foam, if you buy them used. Electrovoice has been steadily jacking up the refurbishment price, so it may cost more to buy them used and find out they have to be refurbished. My advice: Buy them new.

David Lewiston
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Antonw

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2005, 05:56:52 AM »

davidl wrote on Thu, 29 September 2005 07:22


I've used these very modestly priced mics for lots of successful recordings. In Bali this pair is all I use. Gamelan is meant to be heard outdoors, and a spaced pair of well-behaved omnis works wonders. To get an idea of their quality, listen to the Nonesuch Explorer "Bali: Gamelan & Kecak" and Bridge Records "Kecak, a Balinese Music Drama." A pair of spaced RE50s captured all of this. They also worked wonderfully well for many Himalayan recordings. Although they're dynamic, and roll off below 100 Hz and above 13 kHz, you'd never know it from the recordings. As said earlier, they're very well-behaved.


Hi David,
Very cool, im not familiar with those recordings but i am with gamelan. One of my teachers  at the USMT is quite knowledgable on the subject and last year i had the fortune to be able to work on a sample library recording the gamelan of the conservatory here in Utrecht. Unfortunatly though, in a rather poor acoustic enviroment which is why it hasnt been released to the public. I've been thinking about re'doing the project but this time in the anechoic chamber we have here left over from the days that the school building housed the NOB.
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Anton Woldhek
Utrecht School of Music Technology - Sound Design student
Latest Freesound: Coot in the City. http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=7916

davidl

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2005, 06:25:58 AM »

Antonw wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 23:56

Hi David,
Very cool, im not familiar with those recordings but i am with gamelan. One of my teachers  at the USMT is quite knowledgable on the subject and last year i had the fortune to be able to work on a sample library recording the gamelan of the conservatory here in Utrecht. Unfortunatly though, in a rather poor acoustic enviroment which is why it hasnt been released to the public. I've been thinking about re'doing the project but this time in the anechoic chamber we have here left over from the days that the school building housed the NOB.



It's important to specify  which gamelans are being discussed. Balinese and Javanese gamelan are very different.

It's my impression that the Netherlands is more likely to have Javanese gamelans, which are known for subtlety and delicacy. In Java, the best ensembles perform indoors in the kratons of Solo and Jogja, and that's how they should be recorded -- in rooms with appealing acoustics.

With their power and brilliance, Balinese gamelans, on the other hand, are intended for outdoor performances, and that's where they should be recorded. While Javanese gamelans can be recorded more or less as they set up for performance, Balinese gamelans need to be reconfigured for recording. Anechoic chambers don't appeal to me. A pleasant outdoor acoustic is what's called for. I often help Balinese recordings in post, using the Nature room simulations in Samplitude to help things along.

Salutations, David Lewiston
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Walter Odington

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2005, 09:45:35 AM »

Some superb advice here. Very interesting to get the insights of those who have already trod this ground. Thank you.


What do people think about using laptops with FW audio interfaces? There must be a FW powered interface that offers phanom power?

I wouldn't have thought a bagged laptop would make too much noise.


Also, what would be good mic(s) to jump in feet first with? The fore mentioned EV RE50ND-B? The price looked attractive.

I am keen to use the laptop route as there is a perception in me that this could be done cheaper whilst still capable of good quality. (ie I already have a laptop, and a mobile FW interface should cost less than HD recorder)


Am I being ignorant? Please tell me everything I dont know!

World Wide Simmo

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 07:34:31 PM »

Hi Walter,

I wouldn't say you're being ignorant, there is a lot to discover about laptop audio in the field and not many places where you can find out about it. The best advice I can give regarding using a laptop in the field is this:

Don't do it.

I have tried them many times over the years, always hoping/believing that the technology would get better and they'd finally reach an acceptable level of reliability. The whole concept is so cool, but my conclusion remains that they simply cannot be trusted. They are fine for multitrack/studio/home recording work, where a crash isn't a major disaster, but if you're in the field you usually only get one chance to get it right...

My current laptop is a very recent IBM ThinkPad T43 (about 6 months old) running Windows XP. It is the best and most reliable computer I've ever owned, but there is still no way I'd use it for recording sound on location. (Oh, and if I did I'd have to disable the built-in shock detection and associated head parking routine, because a head park in the middle of a critical field recording would be a disaster!)

In my opinion, building anything on top of a Windows or Macintosh platform designed for general-purpose personal computing is fundamentally flawed if fast set-up and high reliability are required in a portable context, and that's the fundamental problem (aside from the operational difficulties). After they solve the hardware problems, you are still running on top of a platform that was not specifically designed for audio, let alone field recording.

And not to mention the rigours of travelling required for field work... Dust, dirt, temperature extremes and so on. Laptops are designed for laps, not backpacks! On a recent recording journey into Tibet and Nepal, my Nagra V went through hell, happily recording at temperatures below 0 degrees Celsius and in dust storms in Tibet, the humidity of the jungles in Nepal, and so on. It worked each and every time I turned it on, no problems at all. One day in the jungles of Nepal I was hanging over the side of an elephant recording the sounds of its feet crashing through the jungle, and I got totally showered in seeds from tall grass. Little tiny seeds, rather like linseed but smaller, zillions of them. They got into everything - my shoes, my underwear, the Rycote windjammer, you name it. I was still picking them out of the toe ends of my socks a month later! My Nagra V got totally buried in them but just kept going, of course, and I remember thinking to myself at the time, "If this was a laptop, I'd have to pull it apart and clean the seeds out from beneath the keys, the CD drive, everywhere" - not to mention that you can't hang over the side of an elephant with a laptop anyway. With the Nagra V, all I had to do was blow some wind over the front panel and the seeds were all gone, no problem.

Film and documentary sound people have faced the problem of portable and reliable audio for years, and so the easiest solution is to look and see what they're using. Very few, if any, are using laptops on location, particularly not for field work. Shooting on sets (even on location) is a very different thing, much more like a studio session, and a laptop may be viable.

In my opinion, you will be entering a world of frustration, pain and disappointment if you're relying on a laptop as your primary audio recording device. Most people who make field recordings would agree with me on that one, so my advice is to go by the experience of others rather than finding out for yourself and finishing your field work with a whole lot of memories of great sounds you didn't manage to record due to equipment problems! And, more than likely, returning home with a broken laptop.

My advice is to forget the laptop, get yourself a proper field recording device such as a Nagra V or Nagra ARES-BB+, and get on with it:

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_ares_bb.php

An ARES-BB+ is small, rugged, affordable, super-reliable (far more reliable than any audio interface for a laptop), and it's ready to record as soon as you turn it on...

You will notice a dearth of high quality, portable and rugged audio interfaces for laptops. Why? I reckon it's because it is simply not a reliable method, and the manufacturers of quality equipment know this and tend to avoid the grief they'd get from people having problems trying to use these things in the field. Most of what you will find are plastic boxes aimed at musicians recording at home or similar, where they can stop and start and can tolerate a crash (or similar problem) because they can simply record it again. This isn't the case for location sound where you only get once chance to capture it.

Try this little experiment: Get yourself a laptop with an audio interface, and go out to the nearest park and make a number of recordings at different locations within the park, each time packing the entire rig up before moving on, and unpacking the entire rig at the new location. In other words, a time-compressed simulation of real field recording. Apart from being amazingly cumbersome to pack up and set up (all those bits and pieces strung together with toy connectors) and keep an eye on, you'll wish you had three hands much of the time, unless you're able to put the laptop on the ground or a park bench or similar.

And finally, please bear in mind that a laptop is a highly valued commodity and a prime target for thieves. You will need to have it out in the open whenever you're recording (you can't leave a laptop closed in a bag while recording), and that's a real attention grabber. In contrast, my Nagra V stayed in my backpack and that stayed firmly fitted over my stomach/chest during recording, the only things that came out were my microphones and headphones, so no-one knew what I was using. I could walk around while making my recordings, and not have to worry about carrying all those bits and pieces and keeping them somehow connected together.

Okay Walter, I hope you find this information helpful. I am sorry for blabbing on and on against laptops, but you asked...

- Greg Simmons

P.S. I have written a couple of things about this for magazines, let me know if you're interested and I'll send them to you...
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Eric Rudd

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Re: Reccomendations for Field Recordings...
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2005, 10:52:33 PM »

Quote:

 Next, lose the cheap omni. Actually, that should have been first. Very Happy




My vote is...lose the minidisc first. We send most of our reporters and contributors out with the Marantz 670. The 660 is smaller although a few folks have said the the noise floor of the mic pres is higher than in the 670. The small DAT recorder is a good choice too.

Eric
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