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[vernier]

I think the "color" issue was created to defend transistors. Same with "clean", "transparent", "less heat", "less maintenance" etc.

[New Orleans Steve]

I would never use any tube amp I am familiar with for critical listening, or mixing to be more precise. To me, sonically, this is kind of the opposite of the Genelec approach.
Again, to Me, even the solid state Macs are too colored for mixing. They are gust flattering. I don't want to mix on a system that makes everything sound better than it is! Even my favorite Mac MC2105, is just so creamy it ain't right.
I prefer MOSFET amps, Perreaux, BGW, Crown. For 6" nearfields., an old DC 300 works for me.

Steve

[zetterstroem]

"To me, sonically, this is kind of the opposite of the Genelec approach"

what is the genelec approach??....

they make crap sounding speakers with built-in limiters that makes them unusable for critical monitoring....

[ammitsboel]

To me the MAC amps sounds unclear and flat when compared to a tube amp like the Audio Note Silver Meishu which is about the same price. I have heard warm sounding not very revealing transistor amps that sounded good, but I have yet to hear a revealing one that doesn't ad a certain amount of "destructive" color.

There is a lot of techno babble going on about both tube and transistor amps. I think that one could get a decent result with both, but to find a solution that works best for you means that a lot of work has to be done.

[ammitsboel]

zetterstroem wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 14:43

"To me, sonically, this is kind of the opposite of the Genelec approach" what is the genelec approach??.... they make crap sounding speakers with built-in limiters that makes them unusable for critical monitoring....

But they measure great don't they!?!

[Sam Lord]

Hey Robert, I spent several years designing (though not the core gain stages) and building ultra-high-end amps.  There are a few tube amps out there (the OTL units like Atma-Sphere) which don't color the sound too much, but they are certainly the exception.  Great SS amps are becoming less rare and $$ now.  I think you will do better to get the very best SS amps you can afford.  There are far more candidates marketed as consumer amps, but they can do very well.  Take a look at Parasound Halo, Theta Dreadnought, Edge, Crown Reference, Pass Labs, and very many more.  Good Luck, Sam

[Teddy G.]

I can't afford the sillyness, better or not.

If you are little interested in whether to choose this tube or that and more concerned with your project itself, maybe you will stick to good quality solid state - stay out of the never-ending fray...

On the other hand if you are NOT concerned about "ultimate" sound quality, maybe you should just rent studio time from someone who is! So they can concentrate on "to tube or not to tube"(And which one), and you can concentrate on your project. But frankly, if you have to ask others what to do, you are at least not yet ready to make the decision Mackie or MacIntosh..?

However, if you think you ARE one of those "which tube" types, but you just don't know for sure yet, you'll have to bite the big budget bullet, buy some of this stuff(A whole lot actually of ALL types) and hear for yourself, taking a good long time to evaluate. You'll never get usable advice from this or any other forum. Here you get statements like  - Genelec is no good! Even if true, laughable non-the-less... and absolutely NO help to you or I...... These are the kinds of people who will tell you the Telefunken "black plate" tube is f-a-r superior to the good ol' RCA! But only if it was made on that cloudy day in January - January 16, 1965, on the second shift(The day Karl was off sick.), at the German factory in Cologne - NOT the stupid Hamburg plant! God no!!! Horrors!!! Make me stab my ear drums with a sharpened wooden Q-tip!!!

How do you reason with people like this? It's an amplifier...

IT'S AN AMPLIFIER!!!


The other day I did an audition at a studio with another guy in the same booth at the same time(We switched roles back and forth - we do voiceover). He was on a brand new multi-thousand dollar Neumann tube mic, I was on a ratty old 421. We were both going through a Millenia pre(Multi-thousand all by itself and solid state.). I never felt offended that he sounded sooo much better - his "sound" was no better at all actually, nor was mine and I've heard him and I through dozens of mic/pre combos. Of course I was then using a pair of the "studio" AKG phones - rather, ahh, well-used. The monitor speakers(Which I didn't listen to this time) were the Yamaha's with the white cones(MS10's?)((Genelec's anyone??? Is there a Voice Of The Theater in the house??????)). In the end, in this application at least, sadly, it just didn't matter. Local(Though large market) radio and TV spot VO. No one listening to the radio or TV outlets will ever question. We sounded fine. Frankly, both of us are so good we could use 2 cans and a string and still get the gig(Ha.). Matter of fact, which listener does question the mics, the pre's the amps? And when? I don't know.

I(EDIT) here, after irst reading, to add a better analogy(We''ll see. Though we'll never "hear").

Three weeks ago I did a radio spot in a studio. A really fine studio. I did the spot on an "AKG The Tube" mic(An old mic that was quickly and soundly poo-pooed by others on this very forum when I asked about it, though to my ears it sounded nice.). Anyway, I went back this week to change a line(New phone number). This time I not only went into the other studio and the other booth with completely different gear, I also used a Neumann U87(Or was it a 47? Who cares?). Sounded NO different. Guaranteed. If you ever hear the spot on the radio you will not write me and say I HEARD IT! YOU SWINE!!! HOW COULD YOU DO THAT!!!!!!?????? I chuckle... Kind'a sad ain't it..?  

Not to say you won't get into some situation where it does matter. And when you do get into a situation where it does matter and you believe your listeners WILL question(Like your doctor, who certainly owns a Mac system.), or even if just you will question... and I hope that time is now, listen to no one! But listen to EveryThing you can get your ears around! Auratones to Washniacs - mics to speakers. Pick what sounds best - To You, no matter what's inside the box.


TG

[zetterstroem]

priceless....  

i must admire the whole idea of getting onto prosoundweb to basically write that it doesn't matter what gear you have....  

so let's shut down the business and buy some ns10's and a 421 on ebay...... and let's ROCK'N'ROLL

i'll sell my dac tomorrow and buy an out of tune guitar....  

[David Bock]

Life is too short for me to have to tolerate complimentary pair BJT output stages any longer. So, YES using EAR 509's on the console, these have relegated the Mac 225 to the TV set a home. Since the Mac is "constipated" it's perfect to combat current TV post techniques, and it was too inaccurate for the control room. The EAR's are much more wideband and dynamic than the Mac. Unfortunately I believe it's the only brand that uses that particular topology that makes them not fall into the typical; "sound like a toob amp" category.
Don't get me wrong, the build quality alone on a Mac will make you a proud owner, but I wouldn't use it as a single broadband amp. It will work better in an active crossover situation (Like at Oceanway where we had Marantz #9 tube amps on the mids & highs & Flame Linears on the bass).
regards,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones
Hollywood, CA

[rphilbeck]

Teddy G. wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 17:38

I can't..

In case anyone doesn't have the time to read Teddy's post, I've condensed all the interesting parts here.

Robert

[dcollins]

zetterstroem wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 08:09

the most important tubeamp company that's been left out.... http://www.audionote.co.uk/

Where important == the most expensive?

Fwiw, I used re-capped Mac 240's on Quested H-108's for years.  A good tool, and if there was some toob colouration, I couldn't it hear it.

We did have a client bring a Cary SET amp to a session once, he obviously though I was some kind of gear-hack, and after we were done mastering we hooked it up in place of the 240.

You could say the look on his face was "priceless," but I think it's  more like US$8000.

For 8 Watts......


DC

[john abney]

An un-modified Marantz 8b in triode mode (17 1/2 WPC) for the highs. (And a solid-state Dallas Music Industries amp for the subs.) The downside of the 8b is that it really needs a couple of hours to warm up.

best,

John

[vernier]

Ah, the 240 ..euphoria.

[zetterstroem]

dcollins wrote on Wed, 10 August 2005 04:41

zetterstroem wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 08:09 the most important tubeamp company that's been left out.... http://www.audionote.co.uk/ Where important == the most expensive? Fwiw, I used re-capped Mac 240's on Quested H-108's for years.  A good tool, and if there was some toob colouration, I couldn't it hear it. We did have a client bring a Cary SET amp to a session once, he obviously though I was some kind of gear-hack, and after we were done mastering we hooked it up in place of the 240. You could say the look on his face was "priceless," but I think it's  more like US$8000. For 8 Watts...... DC

no...... important == good sound

personally i think audio note equipment is too expensive....

but that doesn't mean that i can't admire their non-compromise attitude....

[Teddy G.]

My two "dream" preamps.

A "custom" John Hardy - with everything - to go.

A Pendumum Audio Quartet. Been drooling on the tiny ads in mix for some time now.

Are there people here who really do use tube gear? Strange... Thought I was the only one.

Personally, when I do turn on the radio(Very rarely.) it is a Zenith table-top tube set from the 60's. Little extra hum to it, but, gives it "flavor". I use mostly tube ham gear - one of my general coverage military receivers has 25 of the damned things(According to the manual it can do without half of them if needed.). My old Kenwood transceiver uses a 12BY7 driver and 6146's as finals, for transmit(140 watts on 160 meters!). I often get comments on my "fine audio"(Though I think it's more that I don't turn the compressor on, let alone all the way up, like most seem to do. The compressor in ham rigs must cost, what, 30 cents? Not good.).

Speaking of solid state "reliability". Both my Grundig and my Sony portables are "bad". Why? Don't know. One completely dead audio, one "off frequency" with it's digital readout. Neither are more than 5 or 6 years old. Lightly used. My Collins(60 pound portable, without the 27 volt supply!), built prior to 1960, still kicking. Could use re-capping and a mod or two and certainly a few new tubes, but, when it works it works so much better than anything else I have, it's worth the fuss.


That said, my main mic pre is a tube pre. It's fine. Worries me though. I only have the one Telefunken and I have no way of testing it other than listening and comparing. I have several NOS RCA's, straight from my friends at the old RCA plant here in Lancaster, PA. I have several Japanese tubes and a Lafayette a Zaytron and a Shield brand of unknown origin.). Like to find another reliable outlet or two. I must warn you, so far I have "heard" little difference among those tubes that "put out" reasonably well, though the actual volume "output" itself(On the meter) of some tubes is obviously better than others. The tube pre does sound different than the pre's on my little Mackie mixer, but not always "better", perse. I recently purchased a good pair of headphones(Finally replacing my 25+ year old Koss), so I can listen a bit more carefully now and would like to try some tube subbing.

Question is:

Where do you get your tubes? I pick them up at hamfests and I use one guy in Ohio, but doesn't hurt to have options. Couple of the tube websites seem very good, but I have no buying experience from them.

Thankx,

TG