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[rphilbeck]

If so what brands/models?  I was looking at this...

 http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?i  d=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1093&product=MC 275

and this....

http://www.caryaudio.com/products/audio/sli80.shtml

among many others.


Any opinions on using tube amps in a studio enviroment for monitoring?


-Robert

[tom eaton]

Why would one use an amp that adds color when trying to judge the ability of a work to translate to multiple playback systems?  Neutrality seems to be the best thing a studio amp can bring to the table, and my experience with tube amps leads me to believe that most are not even trying to be neutral.  I can understand having a tube amp around as another reference point, but not as the primary amp for the primary monitors.

-tom

[rphilbeck]

TER wrote on Sun, 07 August 2005 19:35

Why would one use an amp that adds color when trying to judge the ability of a work to translate to multiple playback systems?  Neutrality seems to be the best thing a studio amp can bring to the table, and my experience with tube amps leads me to believe that most are not even trying to be neutral.  I can understand having a tube amp around as another reference point, but not as the primary amp for the primary monitors. -tom

So you're suggesting tube amps can't be neutral?  That's interesting.  How many have you owned or listend to?

Thanks,
Robert

[tom eaton]

Never listened to one claiming to be neutral...always heard them in home systems where they were chosen for the "warm" quality of the tubes to improve the recordings.  Of the two links you posted only the Mc. one had distortion specs available, which looked decent to me on paper.

I have yet to hear a tube device in the studio which does not alter the signal going through it (twin topology devices make these things obvious even inside the same box), and so perhaps my initial response is based more on my experience with gear that is trying to have a sound rather than on tube gear which is trying to be as clean as possible.  

I don't know a single mastering engineer or room that uses tube amps.  The serious choices (Bryston, Cello, Pass, Hot House, high end Haflers, etc.) are all solid state.  I'd be interested to hear about a mastering engineer who uses a tube amp in the monitoring chain!

-tom

[archtop]

http://www.bearcreekstudio.com/

and http://www.robertlangstudios.com/

both use tube amps for monitoring

[tom eaton]

Well is Bearcreek really fair?  Active Genelecs being the first monitors in the monitor list, and active Mackies are there, too.  Sure, 3 out of 8 amps listed are tube amps...makes some sense to me to hear what a tube amp would do to mixes, but I wouldn't do ALL my listening unless the amp in question was pretty darn transparent.  I've not personally heard their "custom EICO stereo tube amp," so it may kill!

Robert Lang has tube amps on the bigs and NS10s and then two pairs of active Genelecs.  Similar story.  

I'm not against the idea of using a tube amp in a studio at all!  I'm not convinced that a tube amp can be as transparent as a solid state amp.  Sure, a tube amp can sound better than a similarly spec'd solid state amp, but monitoring gear should tell you what you've got and that's it.

I'm impressed that you came up with a couple of studios so quickly, though!

Found any mastering studios using tube amps?

-tom

[vernier]

Tube amp? ..of course! ..Mcintosh ..(tubes have no equal).

[rphilbeck]

Archtop, thanks for those links!  Nice studios!  It's hard to explain, but I hear a clarity and detail in vacuume tube amplifiers that I've never gotten from solid state.  So, I don't really agree with Ter about the transparency issue.  Maybe I've just never heard a really good solid state amp.

[J.J. Blair]

I use Manley 35 watt monoblocks with my soffit speakers for the high end.  I'd use tube amps for the low end if they wouldn't cost a fortune.

All amps color the sound, whether they be FET or tube.  It's a question of extent and character.  I'd rather listen to Manley tube
amps any day of the week over any SS amp.

[Peter Simonsen]

Robert Philbeck wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 01:12

If so what brands/models?   Any opinions on using tube amps in a studio enviroment for monitoring? -Robert

I for one is not at all scared of tube amps in the chain..be it recording or monitoring..I use both my own modified stereo 2 * 25w tube poweramps and SS amps. I agree greatly with J.J. Blair..nothing I have come across as of yet..does not colour the sound...in the end its all a matter of what get the work done..ymmv

Kind regards

Peter

[rphilbeck]

Both Peter and JJ are using relatively low wattage amps.  That's interesting.  Check this excerpt from Cary Audio out....

POWER CORRUPTS!

I believe there is a well kept secret in the circles of audio designers. Most designers will not admit to the fact that "the best sounding audio amplifiers are low-powered." Some in the industry believe that even 9 or 10 watts is too much. I have heard it said in many audio forums that, "if the first watt sounds bad, why do I want 200 watts more of the same!"

During a design effort on a new Cary Audio amplifier, I place a great deal of attention concentrated on the "overload recovery" ability of the amplifier. The ability of an amplifier to instantly recover from clipping is much more important than is commonly believed. In the power war of amplifier manufactures the mentality is focused on high and then even higher power output to solve the clipping problem. When in reality the most critical aspect is how fast of a recovery an amplifier can achieve after overload. With the incredible dynamics range of live and in turn recorded music, even 2,000 watts of power is not enough. Most of the music being listened to in an average home listening room is only requiring about 3 watts of power. It is on the transients of loud low frequency program material that tremendous signal voltages will appear at the input of the amplifier. It is in this situation that the overload recovery ability of an amplifier is of critical concern. The single-ended triode class A amplifier extols its merits in the ability to handle transients and instantaneously recover from brief or even extended overloads. The class A triode single-ended amplifier will overload symmetrically at any frequency in the audio bandpass. The triode in class A will also yield faithful reproduction of extremely low frequencies at full output levels. Power transformer, power supply regulation and output transformer design and careful shaping of the overall frequency response curve all play a very important part in the ability of an amplifier to recover quickly when overloaded. If one were to monitor the high voltage rail of a Cary Audio, single-ended class A amplifier during soft and also loud music passages it would be found there is no more than a volt or so change form soft to loud passages.

Another technical feature of a low powered single-ended class A triode amplifier is stability. A properly designed class A triode single-ended amplifier maybe operated with no load (without speakers) without damage to the amplifier, output transformer or tubes.

You will note that most of my discussion has been in the realm of vacuum tube single-ended triode class A audio amplifiers. The single-ended triode audio amplifier is by nature a low wattage device. In staying within that realm, I conclude that "High Power Corrupts!"


Of course I suppose that if you're mixing music, the "best sounding" is not as important as the most "accurate sounding", but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.

[zetterstroem]

Peter Simonsen wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 16:23

Robert Philbeck wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 01:12 If so what brands/models?   Any opinions on using tube amps in a studio enviroment for monitoring? -Robert I for one is not at all scared of tube amps in the chain..be it recording or monitoring..I use both my own modified stereo 2 * 25w tube poweramps and SS amps. I agree greatly with J.J. Blair..nothing I have come across as of yet..does not colour the sound...in the end its all a matter of what get the work done..ymmv Kind regards Peter

the most important tubeamp company that's been left out.... http://www.audionote.co.uk/

if you wanna part with the traditional view on tubes then you should give them a listen.... never heard tubes sound so neutral and analytical ....

[Greg Youngman]

I sold my MC-275 back in the late 70's for a nice profit.  I just sold my MC-225 this spring for a nice profit.  Replaced by a BGW 750.  I hear no difference and no more heating up in the equipment room!

[vernier]

Hear no difference? ..for me, switching to tubes was instant wonderfulness.

[bushwick]

Used to power my amps with MI-75's. Swtiched to an MC-2500. Most will argue that both are somewhat colored. All of this stuff is so relative. At any rate, I had the Meyer Sims computer deal in the control room for the second time when I swapped out the amps. I was told that I should expect to get much tighter low-end after the switch. .....ooooooooh. We had the computer there to tell us exactly what was coming out of the speakers with both setups. Gotta tell ya guys, the screens looked almost identical. Did it sound different? Not so much. Is it possible that I overlooked the differences? Yes. So either I had ham in my ears, have bad ears or some combination of the two. I would say I worry less with what I have now failing on me in a session. Do I regret having just written that last sentence? Maybe tomorrow .

So from that experience, I'd say that it is possble to get fantastic sound from tube amps that isn't really all that "colored". The MI-75 is I believe biased very far into AB, close to class B - another dark tunnel of time expending conversation for some. Ask youself something more important, are your speakers colorless. No such thing. Just different interpretations of an idea. Listen to what you want to listen to to help you work better.

Add: Pie Studios in long island, ny, a place Bill Wittman is very intimate uses MC-75's for the tweeters on the Augspergers. But who mixes on Soffit mounted speakers anyway? Hahahahahah.

havin fun,
josh