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[jimmyjazz]

I am trying to get a run of 1,000 CDs replicated at a local shop.  They will not quote any better than a price +/- 10%.  They claim this is standard practice.  

Is it?

I had our last release replicated at OmniDisc in Canada.  They provided a firm quote and stuck to it.  Is that the exception to the rule?

[Norwood]

I have used Oasis and DiscMaker and both provided and stuck to firm quotes, however some local shops can be cheaper but will charge for overs, if its worth it to get the deal then go for it.

[jimmyjazz]

Is the thinking that they'll have to run (say) 1,050 discs to "ensure" they deliver 1,000?  And in some cases, it won't quite be enough, and in others, they'll get a bit better yield?

I'd rather pay for 1,000 and take what I get.  We may not move 1,000 CDs.

[canada]

If it's the real deal printing, this is standard for an overrun as far as I know.  Because if they didn't make the extra 10% CDs, the blotches from the offset printing might make you not want to pay them apparently.  If they're making CDRs for promotion however, they're trying to rip you.

[jimmyjazz]

No, it's "the real deal".  Silkscreened CDs, replicated audio, offset print inserts, etc.  The equivalent of Omnidisc or Discmakers or whatever, just smaller and local.

I think it's just an effort on their part to be reasonably sure they'll deliver the full order and still account for breakage, etc.  I assume they'll probably deliver just over our full order, but they did say their "worst" delivery was 5% under. (Of course, that's all the client paid for.)

They're not trying to get us to pay for more than they deliver, but I really don't want any more than 1,000 CDs.  (Just wait -- this will be the release that could have sold just over 1,000 units and we won't have them to sell!)

[Ronny]

Yes, + - 10% is standard but they seldom go that far on either side of 1000 and typically will meet the 1,000 count or a few over. Some cd's are used to setup the inking process, same with cassettes, they run a few to get the printing correct, so it's not a rip off. You can tell them to start with 1000 and you take the loss of the first runs or you can go with the + or - 10% deal, either way they are going to charge you for the cd's that they use for proper setup. The guy that got the 5% less and didn't have to pay for the full thousand is lucky.

[TunaSafeDolphin]

I agree - the 10% over/under is normal. However, in my experience I've never had a run come even close to 10% in either direction.

-C

[joeq]

we were offered a deal where if we paid up front they threw in the "overs" at no extra cost.   We took the deal and got about 75 extra disks in a run of 2000

[brandondrury]

Dude,

The price you pay for shipping cds from one of the big boys makes your 10% less of a concern.  It was well over $150 for shipping on a album I engineered recently.  

If you can cut the shipping part out, you are already ahead.

Brandon

[Technotechno]

I can understand this for Vinyl because it takes a while for the machines to turn down.

For CD I see no reason for this practice. Ive never had to pay for more CDs than I ordered and I wouldnt either.

I think its quite convienent. Add up those xtra 10% on every job and over a year it yields a tidy sum I would imagine.

[jimmyjazz]

brandondrury wrote on Mon, 01 August 2005 01:59

Dude, The price you pay for shipping cds from one of the big boys makes your 10% less of a concern.  It was well over $150 for shipping on a album I engineered recently.   If you can cut the shipping part out, you are already ahead.

Except their price is higher than what we paid Omnidisc (out of Canada), by an amount almost exactly equal to that shipping.  That's cool, I'll support the local shop over the foreign shop when the total cost is similar, but I'd sure rather know exactly what I'm in for, especially when the odds are good that we won't sell the whole order.

[TotalSonic]

Coming from a background where I worked many years as a production manager for a vinyl record and CD plant -
let me explain why manufactures (for nearly every kind of "custom" product - i.e. such as printers also) have 10% underage/overage clauses.

Anyone who has done Business 101 or has worked even a day in production management of a factory line knows that downtime is one of the biggest causes of lower profits.  One of the biggest causes of down time is setting up a new job - which in the case of a replicated CD run is placing in a new stamper in the press, testing the initial replicated product to insure that the run will be ok, making any adjustments necessary to the press to have product come up to spec.  Then you have secondary steps of silkscreening (which involves setting up the individual screens for each color in the printer) and packaging (which in the case standard jewel case packaging  usually involves loading the trays, inserts and discs into an automated packer/shrinkwrapper/boxer).  

So for each one of those 3 steps - you only want to do the setup once - and only once!!  If you've ever tried to make a large quantity of anything in your life though you'll find that no matter how well maintained your equipment is and no matter how careful you are a defect will happen now and then.  For CD manufacturing these often happen in silk screening    where there is usually a few misprints at some point in the run.   So - in order to prevent having to go back and put back an already completed run back on press just to get the order up to an acceptable quantity (which would result in an enormous amount of backtracking and extra downtime) manufacturing plants as a standard practice overpress (usually by about 10%) in order to cover for the possibility of loss from defects that happen further "downstream" in the manufacturing process.

This is the reason why there have been overage/underage clauses for nearly every wholesale manufacturing contract since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.  However - a number of CD brokers (i.e. companies such as Oasis that do not manufacture anything themselves but subcontract out the printing and pressing and deliver completed product to the client) noticed that musicians especially had a really hard time grasping this underage/overage concept and rather than go through the possibility of losing a client due to their poor math skills decided to just give "package" rates - that either include the overage if there is any - or that require the manufacture to actually scrap any additional units made above the ordered quantity.  

What works best for you is entirely based on how you figure out the bottom line - but the underage/overage clause is not a "scam" by the manufacturer - it's simply a fact of a factory line's necessary work flow.

[Ronny]

Diskmakers guarantees a full count with no unders, but they make up for it by charging a hundred or so more per 1,000 than other reps.

[jimmyjazz]

Thanks, Totalsonic.  That was very helpful.

[TotalSonic]

Technotechno wrote on Mon, 01 August 2005 22:54

I can understand this for Vinyl because it takes a while for the machines to turn down.

Just to clear this up:
Actually it doesn't.  A vinyl press can be stopped extremely quickly - this is absolutely necessary due to safety concerns.

The reason vinyl is very hard to replicate in exact quantities is that inspection of the product for defects (i.e. off centered labels, scratches, stains, scuffing, bad center holes, bad trimming, etc. etc.) takes place not only at the press but also during the sleeving stage.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson