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Author Topic: new Sony Limiter  (Read 5846 times)

minister

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 10:00:59 pm »

fanstastic !! plug.  for all kinds of music!  very versatile and precise.  surely a "desert island" plug for me.  a real L1, L2 killer.  i use for mixing, and when i "master".

if you don't have it, just read (paul frindle's) manual!  might convince you just based on that.

i am amazed what it does to transients.  i know the OXFORD DYNAMICS uses feed forward.  does anyone know what the limiter use?  just look ahead?
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 09:51:27 am »

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 10:30:20 am »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 14:51

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.



Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:

http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

You might want to reconsider the transparancy of the L2 ...

UnderTow
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 10:48:53 am »

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy
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bblackwood

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 11:18:07 am »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 09:48

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy

HERETIC!
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 12:27:13 pm »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 15:48

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy


I agree about listening rather than looking at graphs. The thing is, I made those graphs because of what I heard! I was a bit surprised that I found the Elephant2 better sounding than the L2 considering the price difference...

But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  Smile

Alistair
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compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 12:54:22 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:27



But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  




Or the (better) competition, regardless of its cost.
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Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 10:25:49 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 23:30

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 14:51

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.



Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:

http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

You might want to reconsider the transparancy of the L2 ...

UnderTow



This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.

Also what tools do i need to be able to run similar tests.
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lagerfeldt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 10:33:58 pm »

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 04:25

[
This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.



Yes, it basically translates to distortion.

However, distortion isn't always bad. Especially harmonic overtones like from tubes can sound great and make the mix sound richer.

I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.

Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 10:36:15 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:33

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 04:25

[
This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.



Yes, it basically translates to distortion.

However, distortion isn't always bad. Especially harmonic overtones like from tubes can sound great and make the mix sound richer.

I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.


Do you know how to run similar tests  to these?
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 10:41:41 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 03:33


I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.


Probably because of all the cross-over filters. (From what I understand, the L3 Ultra is the same the the Multi but all the bands are hidden from the user).

Alistair
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thephatboi

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2006, 10:30:28 pm »

I own the Oxford Limiter and love it, Way more transparant than L2, I find if you go with a medium slow attack and pretty fast release, with about 2-3 db of reduction, it is really nice, hardly noticable. It also has the "enhance" slider which tends to make the mix sound wider and "fluffier," be careful not to abuse this as it will cause a certain distortion particularly in hard hitting sounds like piano or hard male vocals, conservative use or none at all recommended. Not sure what it is actually doing to spread the sound out... Paul F. of Sony can tell you. This plug-in gets a big thumbs up from me. And buying it alone doesn't break the bank (around $400 I think)
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Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 10:36:05 pm »

Would you guys say that this beast has surpassed the L2?


Also is a VST version in the woodwork.
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compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2006, 11:00:27 pm »

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 22:36

Would you guys say that this beast has surpassed the L2?


Blasphemy!  If the L2 is a beast, then the Oxford is a Noble Animal.


Quote:

Also is a VST version in the woodwork?


Probably.
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AndreasN

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 07:49:52 am »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:30


Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/



As Pingu wrote, this is indeed interesting! Couldn't actually believe my own eyes. Still don't..

I've become very cautious of trusting the computer screen, especially when it comes to dealing with the representation of time discrete signals, as in sampled signals. Quick and dirty tests like this that shows such obvious errors are on my top list of sceptical subjects. If there is such an obvious error, don't you think the manufacturer of these plug ins would have noticed as well?

Loaded up the (freely downloadable) Span analyzer and played around with it, sine waves and the L2. Was at first unable to duplicate your results, until setting the window options exactly as you did.

Then I tried various frequencies. At 900Hz, there's almost nothing left of all this distortion. Looks rather nice at 1050Hz too. The display is horrible around 1000Hz!

Sound Forge's FFT showed much the same artifact. Tried null-testing and it failed at those frequencies. The remaining waveform was very low, at the level of 16 bit dither, and showed a nice sine wave cycling up and down in amplitude. Another hint of discrete sample point weirdness.

But the null test did not fail exact integers of the sampling rate. Ie, at 1102.5Hz or 551.25Hz, the original and L2 processed waves nulled completely!

This stuff only happens when the L2 (or L3) as active though, the display is as clean as can be when the threshold is too high to affect the signal. So there must be something happening, but I'm not sure if it's creating distortion or not.


This is way beyond my head, especially first thing in the morning! Think it's got something to do with the shortcoming of FFT. This link was interesting:  http://www.steema.com/FFTProp/FFTProperties/FFTProperties.ht m but I can't mesh that info with these tests right now, my brain is hung ower at the moment. Razz

Someone with the knowledge of FFT's, sines, processing and sample points care to step up and explain?


Andreas


EDIT: Did another test on this weird limiter behaviour. Viewed the DAC outputs on an oscilloscope, one channel being the clean sinewave and the other with the L2 engaged as you did in the test, 3dB limiting. No difference.
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