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Author Topic: new Sony Limiter  (Read 5792 times)

Alécio Costa - Brazil

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new Sony Limiter
« on: July 16, 2005, 06:52:20 pm »

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Alécio Costa Studio
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Thomas W. Bethel

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 10:21:28 am »

Since this only works with Pro Tools and most professional mastering engineers do not use Pro Tools I don't see the need for yet another plugin compressor for a system I don't use. But if you use ProTools and like the compressor then you should buy and use it.

-TOM-

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Thomas W. Bethel
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masterhse

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 08:37:48 pm »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 10:21

Since this only works with Pro Tools and most professional mastering engineers do not use Pro Tools ...



Tom -

According to the poll here, it's on the upper end of the list.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/6025/4063/?SQ=1 ce70f5213e942f13d570d40057b5c34

Granted for some it may be their second DAW.
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Tom Volpicelli
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2005, 03:30:06 pm »

I was talking to the top brazilian mastering engineer this week and he insisted on me that Sonic still rules (!!), although he has not seen many upgrades recently.
Each man and his tools.
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Jules

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2006, 09:33:05 pm »

Can I just say, that I really like this plug in?

For my mastering sessions...

... a lot.

compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2006, 11:06:32 pm »

Jules wrote on Sat, 04 February 2006 21:33

Can I just say, that I really like this plug in?

For my mastering sessions...

... a lot.




Yes you certainly can.  I think it is the best "unknown" plug-in out there!

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/88149/6490/?SQ= e5a00166ba07b054bd11dff2a968d394#msg_88149

Using it to master as we speak.


Terry
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bblackwood

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2006, 11:08:40 pm »

You TDM guys are pissing me off...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2006, 02:00:39 am »

One would have to assume they'll port it over to Power Core in due time.....

I've been diggin the Inflator.. although it's not cool for all things....

I bought the Power Core unplugged just to run the inflator... I'm glad I was able to get the Power Core without all the other cheese bundled plugs....

If they ever port the liniter to Power Core that would rock....

t

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trevor sadler
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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2006, 06:50:48 am »

Over 4 months ago, Rod Mansell of Sony told me:
"I can confirm that Sony Oxford will be producing versions of the Limiter plugin for the Powercore platform."

It is noticeable that none of the more recent Sony plugs have appeared for Powercore.  If Sony are not going to support the TC product in future, seems to me that it would serve production pros betters if this were announced officially.  Then we could all make  informed decisions about our platforms.

In the meantime I suggest that Powercore users hungry for the newer Sony plugs make their views known, in the hope that SonyOxford get a better view of how many of us there are!
support@sonyplugins.com


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Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2006, 10:21:59 am »

I have not tried the limiter.

What makes it special guys.

Whats great about it please.
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ammitsboel

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2006, 11:14:55 am »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 05 February 2006 05:08

You TDM guys are pissing me off...
Couldn't have said it better myself!
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Bob Boyd

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2006, 11:58:43 am »

ammitsboel wrote on Sun, 05 February 2006 10:14

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 05 February 2006 05:08

You TDM guys are pissing me off...
Couldn't have said it better myself!


Ah, don't be jealous.  You've always got Windows!
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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2006, 12:22:21 pm »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 09:21

Since this only works with Pro Tools and most professional mastering engineers do not use Pro Tools ...


PT 7.1 HD here, & WaveBurner to burn masters.

Although I'm not a big plug-in guy, I'll be checking out these Oxford tools.

Wonder how much TDM juice this limiter uses.

cheers
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2006, 01:25:05 pm »

I have to give to Sony, all of their Oxford plug ins rock..very high end... and allow one to get great results. I am a UAD and Waves man, but getting a Powercore card just to run some of the Oxford plug ins is something I have thought about....too much.  Shocked It is on my list but I need to get other things for my studio first.  Sad
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compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2006, 01:49:17 pm »

Pingu wrote on Sun, 05 February 2006 10:21

I have not tried the limiter.

What makes it special guys.

Whats great about it please.


 http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/88149/6490/?SQ= e5a00166ba07b054bd11dff2a968d394#msg_88149
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minister

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 10:00:59 pm »

fanstastic !! plug.  for all kinds of music!  very versatile and precise.  surely a "desert island" plug for me.  a real L1, L2 killer.  i use for mixing, and when i "master".

if you don't have it, just read (paul frindle's) manual!  might convince you just based on that.

i am amazed what it does to transients.  i know the OXFORD DYNAMICS uses feed forward.  does anyone know what the limiter use?  just look ahead?
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 09:51:27 am »

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 10:30:20 am »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 14:51

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.



Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:

http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

You might want to reconsider the transparancy of the L2 ...

UnderTow
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 10:48:53 am »

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy
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bblackwood

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 11:18:07 am »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 09:48

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy

HERETIC!
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 12:27:13 pm »

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 15:48

I am less interested in a wave on a graph compared to what my hears hear. Up to 3db is pretty acceptable to me on the L2, but hey if you don't like it, just don't use it.  Very Happy


I agree about listening rather than looking at graphs. The thing is, I made those graphs because of what I heard! I was a bit surprised that I found the Elephant2 better sounding than the L2 considering the price difference...

But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  Smile

Alistair
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compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 12:54:22 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:27



But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  




Or the (better) competition, regardless of its cost.
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Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 10:25:49 pm »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 23:30

Keef wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 14:51

I have not heard the Sony Limiter but I won't argue that you may be able to squash mixes more with it over the L2 without having bad artifacts. However I don't like music having no or little dynamics. The L2 to me up to 3 db sounds very natural, while the UAD Prec adds a little smoothness. With staying up to 3db on the limiting, you have a natural, louder sound that still retains dynamics. At this point, I will stick with my trusty L2.



Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:

http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

You might want to reconsider the transparancy of the L2 ...

UnderTow



This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.

Also what tools do i need to be able to run similar tests.
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lagerfeldt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 10:33:58 pm »

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 04:25

[
This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.



Yes, it basically translates to distortion.

However, distortion isn't always bad. Especially harmonic overtones like from tubes can sound great and make the mix sound richer.

I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.

Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 10:36:15 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 11:33

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 04:25

[
This is interesting.

Does anyone know what this means sonically.



Yes, it basically translates to distortion.

However, distortion isn't always bad. Especially harmonic overtones like from tubes can sound great and make the mix sound richer.

I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.


Do you know how to run similar tests  to these?
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UnderTow

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 10:41:41 pm »

lagerfeldt wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 03:33


I've noticed than in some cases the distortion from the L3 is worse or at best different than the L2, I don't know why.


Probably because of all the cross-over filters. (From what I understand, the L3 Ultra is the same the the Multi but all the bands are hidden from the user).

Alistair
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thephatboi

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2006, 10:30:28 pm »

I own the Oxford Limiter and love it, Way more transparant than L2, I find if you go with a medium slow attack and pretty fast release, with about 2-3 db of reduction, it is really nice, hardly noticable. It also has the "enhance" slider which tends to make the mix sound wider and "fluffier," be careful not to abuse this as it will cause a certain distortion particularly in hard hitting sounds like piano or hard male vocals, conservative use or none at all recommended. Not sure what it is actually doing to spread the sound out... Paul F. of Sony can tell you. This plug-in gets a big thumbs up from me. And buying it alone doesn't break the bank (around $400 I think)
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Pingu

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 10:36:05 pm »

Would you guys say that this beast has surpassed the L2?


Also is a VST version in the woodwork.
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compasspnt

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2006, 11:00:27 pm »

Pingu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 22:36

Would you guys say that this beast has surpassed the L2?


Blasphemy!  If the L2 is a beast, then the Oxford is a Noble Animal.


Quote:

Also is a VST version in the woodwork?


Probably.
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AndreasN

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 07:49:52 am »

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:30


Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/



As Pingu wrote, this is indeed interesting! Couldn't actually believe my own eyes. Still don't..

I've become very cautious of trusting the computer screen, especially when it comes to dealing with the representation of time discrete signals, as in sampled signals. Quick and dirty tests like this that shows such obvious errors are on my top list of sceptical subjects. If there is such an obvious error, don't you think the manufacturer of these plug ins would have noticed as well?

Loaded up the (freely downloadable) Span analyzer and played around with it, sine waves and the L2. Was at first unable to duplicate your results, until setting the window options exactly as you did.

Then I tried various frequencies. At 900Hz, there's almost nothing left of all this distortion. Looks rather nice at 1050Hz too. The display is horrible around 1000Hz!

Sound Forge's FFT showed much the same artifact. Tried null-testing and it failed at those frequencies. The remaining waveform was very low, at the level of 16 bit dither, and showed a nice sine wave cycling up and down in amplitude. Another hint of discrete sample point weirdness.

But the null test did not fail exact integers of the sampling rate. Ie, at 1102.5Hz or 551.25Hz, the original and L2 processed waves nulled completely!

This stuff only happens when the L2 (or L3) as active though, the display is as clean as can be when the threshold is too high to affect the signal. So there must be something happening, but I'm not sure if it's creating distortion or not.


This is way beyond my head, especially first thing in the morning! Think it's got something to do with the shortcoming of FFT. This link was interesting:  http://www.steema.com/FFTProp/FFTProperties/FFTProperties.ht m but I can't mesh that info with these tests right now, my brain is hung ower at the moment. Razz

Someone with the knowledge of FFT's, sines, processing and sample points care to step up and explain?


Andreas


EDIT: Did another test on this weird limiter behaviour. Viewed the DAC outputs on an oscilloscope, one channel being the clean sinewave and the other with the L2 engaged as you did in the test, 3dB limiting. No difference.
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2006, 08:05:36 am »

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:54

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:27



But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  




Or the (better) competition, regardless of its cost.



Hey thats not true. Right now I am in the middle of paying off debt that I have. So I am very careful on what I buy right now. Wavelab 6 is the first thing I need to buy and some money I am making in the studio will pay for it. Only $399 since I already own Cubase. The L2 has given me great results for years (and many others here) and it has a decent dither built in. So I am not going to jump on every thread about new great gear and just start buying stuff. After Wavelab 6, and a matched pair of mic's for acoustic guitar, then I will look into things besides the L2.

In regards to the Sony Limiter, I could not even try it if I wanted to, becuase I run Cubase and don't have a Powercore card.
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astroshack

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2006, 11:30:59 am »

AndreasN wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 20:49

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:30


Look at what 3dB of limiting on a sinewave does in the L2:
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/


Someone with the knowledge of FFT's, sines, processing and sample points care to step up and explain?




This is related to the thoeretically infinite non-linearities generated by limiters. What you see in the graphs is most likely fold-down aliasing from non-linearities which exceed the Nyquist limit and are therefore "folded down" (also known as downward aliasing) into the "legal" frequency bandwidth specified by Nyquist.

This is why you see less distortion in the Elephant when running at 4Fs (ie upsampled to 192KHz) - due to the increased frequency response, less downward aliasing occurs. And, there is presumably a filter deployed during the downsampling to further deal with aliasing distortion.

Most aliasing distortion is regarded as un-musical (ie not euphonic) but the graphs cannot confirm this. The only real way you can tell which limiter sounds better than another is by ABX listening.

FWIW, I like Elephant when used in 4X upsampling mode. I also like the Precision Limiter and TC Brickwall Limiter. Looking forward to hearing the Oxford.

Sean  

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AndreasN

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2006, 01:34:49 pm »

Thanks for the clarification!

Sorry for jumping on quick conclusions.


It really IS that bad?? Ripley, I'm scared!
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Jules

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2006, 07:56:21 pm »

Re: new Sony Limiter

I am glad of the long review of Compaspoints

Short Jules review..

Louder & nicer

Very Happy

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2006, 08:00:23 am »

I used the Sony limiter and dynamics demos to do a home master job of a pretty ruff mix. Even being an amateur I turned the song into a great sounding track in minutes with them on the bus. I liked being able to adjust the mix with these on the bus.

The limiter is way more musical sounding than an L2 and the dynamics has a limiter built into it as well. I used the compressor with the side chain to remove the bass from the trigger, and the soft clip limiter engaged with the oxford limiter at the end with a good amount of the enhancer on. Turned my little techno track into a pro sounding record with a nice tight bottom. I have played it on many systems and it sounds great on all.

I only wish I was staying with Protools but I am selling it off to get a new g5 and logic pro 7.2. I am interested to hear the new waves SSL plugs. The Sony oxford dynamics had that SSL finish to it.

I think they are the best plug-ins I have used for dynamics control and bus compression.  

If they do a powercore version of the limiter, I may do that. Will a powercore run on a new G5? firewire?
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Andy Krehm

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2006, 09:31:56 am »

Revelation wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 08:05

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:54

UnderTow wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 12:27



But hey, if you are going to stick with the L2 without comparing with the (cheaper) competition, thats fine by me.  




Or the (better) competition, regardless of its cost.



Hey thats not true. Right now I am in the middle of paying off debt that I have. So I am very careful on what I buy right now. Wavelab 6 is the first thing I need to buy and some money I am making in the studio will pay for it. Only $399 since I already own Cubase. The L2 has given me great results for years (and many others here) and it has a decent dither built in. So I am not going to jump on every thread about new great gear and just start buying stuff. After Wavelab 6, and a matched pair of mic's for acoustic guitar, then I will look into things besides the L2.

In regards to the Sony Limiter, I could not even try it if I wanted to, becuase I run Cubase and don't have a Powercore card.

I've seen a lot of L2 trashing on the mastering webboards but nobody (probably on purpose) seems to be explaining how to use it. The "secret" is that it works very well if you only use 1.0 to 2.0 of the threshold setting.

Now you are going to say that you can't get the program loud enough. So in order to use the L2 very lightly, one has to get the gain hot enough before the ADC so that the L2 is not over used.

I can't speak for plug-in mastering guys but I get my volume by stepping up through 3 to 4 units of high-end tube gear (usual culprits, Manleys, Tubetech, Requisite), hit an analog peak limiter and get competitive volume with more dynamics.

If I need a little more help, I'll use my Weiss DS1 in parallel or straight compressor mode, say a 2.00:1 ratio with 1 db of gain reduction. I can also add a bit of compression with any of my tube units. Unless its the latest emo/screamo, my approach is to finess the levels upward.

I used to be a plug-ins only guy in the early days and also over did the L1/L2, thus causing distortion as described.

However, hitting the L2 lightly, it sounds just as "transparent" as my TC 6000 Brickwall limiter and for loud music, is almost always my first choice.

I have hitched my horse to Mac so I am envious of those of you with choices that only work in the PC environment but using the L2 as described above works very well for me and many other experienced mastering engineers.

Andy,

Silverbirch Productions

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2006, 10:19:38 am »

Andy Krehm wrote on Mon, 27 March 2006 08:31

I've seen a lot of L2 trashing on the mastering webboards but nobody (probably on purpose) seems to be explaining how to use it. The "secret" is that it works very well if you only use 1.0 to 2.0 of the threshold setting.


99% of the time, I leave my L2 (hardware) set to 3dB on the threshold, and it works very well... but only "hit it" 1 or 2dB. Once in a blue moon, if someone wants it "Ultra Loud", I may turn it to 4dB, not often. I'm sure we all have our favorite settings.

I'm pleased that there are good sounding alternatives (to Waves) out there... the Sony, the UAD, and others... may add them to our "bag of tricks" at some point. Although Waves is the pioneer of plug-ins, they can be a little arrogant at times... WUP, iLok policy, etc.

Andy Krehm wrote on Mon, 27 March 2006 08:31

I have hitched my horse to Mac so I am envious of those of you with choices that only work in the PC environment...


I'm not envious of our PC brothers at all.... been a proud Mac user for 20+ years... we have 10 of them currently in use... but I did add one "utility" PC last year for Plextools... I'm beginning to see, that being able to function in both worlds, is the smart way to go.

"Well They Call It Stormy Monday..."  T-Bone Walker

Cheers
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Nigel Jopson

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2006, 05:44:45 pm »

Good news for Powercore users:  I saw the limiter running on a Powercore compact on the Sony stand at Paris AES.  Apparently it is "in Beta" ... but seemed to be working fine with Nuendo.
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Ben F

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2006, 01:30:49 am »

I think that there is not one 'magic' limiter, as indeed there is no one 'magic' EQ or compressor that fits every job.

They all sound slightly different. The L2 puts bite in the top end and sucks out the lowmids (slightly)...so the solution is give the track less top end and more lowmids than normal, wack it through the L2 and hey presto, the L2 'sound' is tamed. I personally like the L2 sound on hip-hop and some electronic music, dislike it on acoustic rock, jazz, but then the Weiss DSP1 is almost totally transparent for this style of music. But once again not completely transparent.

There's no quick fix, no 'one' solution, just listening continously and learning equipments pros and cons. I honestly think that limiting is the least difficult part of mastering, yet is talked about the most!
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cerberus

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Re: new Sony Limiter
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2006, 09:18:31 am »

Ben F wrote on Thu, 25 May 2006 01:30

 I honestly think that limiting is the least difficult part of mastering, yet is talked about the most!


not easy for me, so i think i know why we talk about it so much... but if you want to talk more about elliptical eq, that would be cool.

jeff dinces
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