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[aeser]

recording a grindcore/death metal band with appropriately shredding guitars, i've heard it suggested before that a lot of the extremely heavy guitar sounds have actually come out of like 10" speakers with low watts,

right now we're working with a marshall 1960a cab with celestian 12"s and a mesa tri axis (which sounds the balls) and a mesa strategy 400 power amp, which is 400 tube watts which is i'm thinking WAY too much to get a good, clear, defined recorded shred tone out of, as everything i've recorded with it sounds a bit overblown and lacks definition. i'm thinking (for reference) guitar tones like on cryptopsy's "none so vile", morbid angels "formulas fatal to the flesh", slayers reign in blood, south of heaven, and seasons in the abyss, good shred sounds with good mid's and definition (ma's formulas was a bit muddy but threw it in anyway).

how would one go about matching a power amp and cab for this?

i was thinking possibly of a mesa 20/20 power amp and mesa 1x12" cab, but then i read the 20/20 is actually quite loud, and not sure if i should actually go with a smaller speaker size even? i want it to sound loud on the recording but still have definition.

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

(for reference recording this with a soundcraft ghost 24, using it's pre's, an RNC, a RADAR, and the following mic's: sennheiser md421, 2 shure sm58's, 2 studio projects c1's, an akg d112, and 2 akg c1000s's)

[Vertigo]

I'd recommend no more than 50 watts per 4x12 cab. You want to be able to crank enough juice through those power tubes to light 'em up and get the full tone from them. I have a Mesa triple rec that I use for a lot of metal stuff. 150 watts was hella overkill so I converted it down to a 50 watt single rec. James Murphy (former guitarist of Death) just borrowed it for the last two projects he worked on here in Atlanta. I have his settings if you want to take a peek. And you can check out the resulting tracks here:

http://www.myspace.com/daath

That's Kevin Talley (dying Fetus/Misery Index/Chimera) on drums during Ovum - a true death metal god

I'm not sure about the Triaxis, but with the recto's it's usually a good idea to throw a tube screamer in front of them. It takes some of the mud and graininess out of the tone and makes the tracks sit better (another trick I learned from James).

As for mic's, I wouldn't use any of the ones you mentioned personally. The 421 might work, or maybe one of the 58's with the windscreen removed. A 57 would probably be the way to go for what you're looking for - the tracks mentioned above were done with a single 57.

-Lance

[George_]

taking advice from a nonpro:

Dual Recto with a royer did it for me (ask Ross hogarth).

cab was Marshall 1960a.

cheers george

[aeser]

the tri axis does the dual rectifier, it also does the mark iv wich i vastly prefer (less muddy than the rectifier), i usually do one track with the mark iv and one with the rectifier and then pan them left and right.

i'd love to use a royer but unfortunately i can't afford one right now.

i've used the 58 AND 57'S on the cabs before and they're ok but in general i prefer the 421 (gives me a less middy, more full sound).

i'm mainly wondering what kind of wattage i should be pushing, as was mentioned i want the tubes to open up and get into the "sweet spot" just that when i do that with the 400 watt strategy 400 amp it of course sounds like crap to the micraphone, even if in the room it opens up nicely and gets a good tone. so naturally i'm thinking lower wattage amp so i can open it up at a more micraphone-friendly (lower spl) volume to get the sound on a recording.

if you can hit that with 50 watts i may try going with the mesa 20/20, i know i can push 20 watts and get it to open up at a level that won't fuck with the mic.

[brandondrury]

If you have a few bucks laying around, pick up a Hotplate.  It's a totally different beast when you can take a high gain amp, put the master volume on 10 and the pregain on 0.  Add your gain as needed.  

When cranking amps up you need to be careful that the low end doesn't fart out too much.  Players used to Rectos many times don't like power tube distortion at first.  It can get muddy.  

By the way, the death metal thing was pro.  Nice job whoever did it.

Brandon

[Fletcher]

I've been using a Madison "Divinity" head with the Hotplate and either my 1960 cabinet with custom Weber speakers or the stock 4x12 that came with the "Divinity" head.

The thing I love so much about the Madison is that it sounds different from all the dual/triple/quad rectifier bullshit [you have no idea how much I hate the sound of those things... they have as much depth and soul as a mosquito on steroids].

It is really exceptionally possible to make heavy records that don't have that "Godsmack" whine to them... and while moving a bunch of air can indeed be helpful, I would personally like to beat the designers at Mesa Boogie to death using the design and fabrication staff at Bogner as the dull, blunt instrument of doom.

BTW, you can get some unfuckingbelieveably heavy sounds with an MXR Distortion + and a Fender Champ... but don't tell anyone!!

[Vertigo]

I think the rectos have gotten a bad rap, likely due to mass production and overuse. I think people are just tired of hearing them... But I think they're still fine amps once you're familiar with them and learn their little "quirks". The Bogners do smoke them in terms of depth, warmth, and tone - there's no doubt about that. But for metal records I don't think they translate to tape the way that the recto's do. The Mesas have a character that's ideal for tracking metal guitars (thrash/death/black - not the "nu-metal" Godsmack type stuff). Tight "chunky" low end, "fast" distortion, and a lot of presence and articulation in the upper mids and high end bring a lot of clarity to muted double picking and pinch harmonics. My recto was recently picked over a Bogner Ecstacy three sessions in a row for thrash and death metal projects.

-Lance

[Fletcher]

I've found that the first thing you need to do with a Bogner is to get rid of the Sovtec EL-34's they put in the thing and replace them with some RCAs or Sylvanias [I wasn't wild about the Mullard's, but YMMV]... then again, I'm really tired of hearing the same guitar sound on every record...

[Otitis Media]

If it sounds good when you're in the room, why don't you put an omni mic in the place you're standing, rather than right up on the grille?  Just a thought....

[JPRisus]

nothing wrong with your cab.. although i will add, i've gotten better tones with a 2x12 (more definition and clarity), but a 1x12 sounded like it was about to explode with a Marshall 50-watter hitting it, not good at all... go figure.  Speakers themselves will make a bigger difference though, lots of people love Celestion Vintage 30s for heavy tones.

I'd suggest using much less power... no need for all that stuff. Get a 50 watt power amp, i think Mesa makes one, and dime it into your 4x12... should be great!

Any amp CAN be useful if you know how to set it up properly, the guitarist can actually play, and has a good (i.e. properly intonated and not fuct up) instrument.  Everyone has their preferences, mesa, Marshall, Bogner, etc. I've made 'em all work at one time or another.

Also, room tones can be deceiving for heavy guitars. Sure it might sound good in the room, but a room mic ain't gonna cut it for what you're doing. I don't care who says what about it.

[brandondrury]

For brutal metal the Rectos may cut it, but they've found their way into all sorts of radio rock shit now.  "Rock bands" are buying these.  

Although I've found that mixing a Recto with an old Marshall can be a life saver.  

The amp of choice for the modern stuff hands down without a doubt is the Hughes and Kettner Triamp.  They are not cheap but they are the ballsiest, toneful monsters on the market for the modern amp stuff.  When you compare it to the the Recto side by side, it's like a 30 year old strong man just throwing a 6 year old boy as far as he can.  These amps are HIGHLY recommended.

Brandon

[PookyNMR]

brandondrury wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 07:18

The amp of choice for the modern stuff hands down without a doubt is the Hughes and Kettner Triamp.  They are not cheap but they are the ballsiest, toneful monsters on the market for the modern amp stuff.  When you compare it to the the Recto side by side, it's like a 30 year old strong man just throwing a 6 year old boy as far as he can.  These amps are HIGHLY recommended.

I totally agree.  That is what we have here at our studio.

[George_]

what about engl powerball? I like the tone very much and because I dont have 4000$ I'm thinking of getting one. Diezzel is also out of pricerange.

Now I usually get the dual recto from a friend for recordingsessions, but wanna have one amp on my own.

What I found out (again: low budget technics ) is tweaking the guitarsound with pulltech (or the emulation from URS-plugins the fulltech) and tweak them. A very good thing for getting some good sounds out of your guitartrack is the psp vintagewarmer (VST-plugin) witch has some nice analog warmth (digital modelled:.. huh;) )