Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Etch-A-Sketch]

sorry man, but every plugin creates latency.  For example the BF76 induces 3 samples of latency, not 0 as listed in that link you mentioned... the reason why it seems like 0 is because LE is compensating for it automatically and you cannot turn it off like you can in the TDM systems...

One must understand how the plugin's latency (delay) is computed before one starts saying that LE does or does not adjust for latency...

Blueboy, do you know how protools computes the delay time of a plugin?  I've actually spoken with two digidesign developers about this and one plugin developer about this...have you?

Here's what happens... Digi doesn't do any realtime computation...but, neither does any other software.  Within the code of the plugin, there is a field to specify how many samples of delay this plugin induces.  This number must be researched by the plugin developer and it is the plugin developer's responsibility to test the plugin and report the correct value.  One plugin that comes to mind that DOESN'T do this is the Omnipressor from Eventide.  They didn't compute the latency correctly, so it reports its latency to protools incorrectly...and therefore protools doesn't adjust it correctly.

also... in LE, delay compensation is also dependent on your H/W buffer size.  The smaller your buffer, the less delay compensation you are able to have.  The larger the buffer size, the more delay compensation you are allowed to have...

This is the flaw in your post you keep referring to... nobody mentions (at least as far as I could see) what their buffer size is.  Yes... if you pile up plugins on one track you can eventually "break" the delay compensation...meaning you have more latency than the current buffer size and processor CPU % allocation can handle.  But that holds true with any native DAW.

Now...there are other plugins that vary their delay as they are working, and in that context no program i(ncluding protools) will accurately adjust for its latency... can you think of any plugins that might be like this?   I have one for you... Autotune.  Autotune, because of the way its is designed, induces more latency when the pitch is further out of tune.  So, the more out of tune your singer is, the more latency there will be...and this is on a NOTE BY NOTE basis.  There is no way to dynamically adjust the latency compensation for a plugin that dynamically changes its latency.

Basically... if you find a problem with delay compensation in PTLE... 99% of the time the same problem will appear when using the same plugin in Logic or Cubase or Sonar or Digital Performer or Vegas.  But regardless... the issue here is whether PTLE does do latency compensation for plugins...and the answer is "yes, it does".

[Etch-A-Sketch]

blueboy wrote on Wed, 15 February 2006 14:24

http://www.digitalmusicdoctor.com/shootout/audio_ratings.htm Check out the Mixing section heading and look at the line that says "Plugin Delay Compensation". JL

And again... why are you assuming they are correct?  Just because they took the time to post a webpage?  I fail to see any testing methodology listed as to how they came to the conclusion that LE and MP has no delay compensation.  In this instance, they are 100% incorrect.  Do the test for yourself instead of pointing me to all these different threads of people incorrectly saying that it doesn't.  

Someone two months down the line may make reference to your post saying that it doesn't and take it as fact...when in reality, you've never done any testing yourself and are just going by hearsay.  I have personally done the testing myself and have talked to people at Digidesign and at Soundtoys (used to be Wave Mechanics) about it.  What have you done besides read someone else's BS review of a software they probably put together by reading spec sheets instead of actually purchasing the software and doing the phsyical tests themselves.

I would imagine the reason digital doctor says that LE doesn't have delay compensation is because they don't list it as a "feature" on their website while Cubase and other software do list it as a feature.  I would bet money that the people that put together that comparison chart on digitaldoctor.com have never even sat down and used all of the programs listed, nevermind contacting the companies and getting eval copies of the software/hardware for reviewing purposes.

Blueboy...do you even own protools?  It sounds like you don't...  Maybe I'm wrong... but if you really did own protools, you would have said, "I opened up protools last night and tried it and you know what, it does do delay compensation."  Instead you keep trying to point us to links with misinformation due to user error and bogus marketing propaganda.

[blueboy]

It is interesting that every other source I have seen regarding this states that Pro Tools LE does not have Full Plugin Delay Compensation.

I am certainly not an authority on Pro Tools LE, but yes I do own it. For many reasons (listed throughout these forums) it has been relegated to use as a file translation utility should I need it (not very often), and is not installed on a regular basis.

What you described is how Pro Tools LE implements what they call Automatic Delay Compensation. This method is not FULL plugin delay compensation as it does not compensate for delays in all circumstances.

Someone should let Universal Audio know about this though, as they are stating that their UAD-1 plugins do not work in Pro Tools LE without manually compensating for the delay.

Quote:

Pro Tools LE and Mix do not have plugin delay compensation (PDC) like some DAW applications. Therefore you must manually compensate for the latency introduced by UAD-1 plugins. One way to do this is to move the track forward the right number of samples so it lines up with the other tracks that are not delayed. If you Command-click on the fader in the Pro Tools mix window, a display will show how many samples you need to move the track forward. ....................................................... UAD DelayComp should not be used since Nuendo 2.1/Cubase SX 2.0. These hosts have fully automatic plugin delay compensation throughout the signal path.

http://www.uaudio.com/products/software/RTAS/FAQ.html

Has this changed recently?

Why is everyone else, including legions of Pro Tools LE users concerned about Plugin Delay Compensation if they already have it?

Quote:

Automatic Delay Compensation?          There has recently been a resurgence of requests on the Digidesign User Conference for Pro Tools to automatically adjust for plug-in/convertor delays. Often people point to Pro Tools LE and its "automatic plug-in delay compensation". It's mostly true that in LE you don't get plug-in delays (and extremely nice it is too), but it's not really that LE has an active compensation scheme. What's really happening is that, being host-based, LE uses a processing buffer, so there's effectively a delay on everything all the time. Therefore, if all the plug-ins can get their maths together in the allotted time everything will all come out at the other end with no relative delays. However, with really meaty plug-ins like Maxim that handle large chunks of data at once, delays are still incurred.

  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb03/articles/pronotes0203. asp

Obviously, there are situations with various plugins that are not handled properly in regards to delay compensation. Other DAWs do not suffer from the same problems with these same plugins.

With other DAWs, you don't even have to think about delay compensation, it just works. Some even have the ability to compensate for external hardware latency.

If you have the correct and complete information regarding Pro Tools Le and Plugin Delay Compensation, please just point us all to the source of your information... preferably from Digidesign itself, as you would think that it would be in their best interests to "debunk the myth".

Do you think that maybe Digidesign doesn't promote the fact that they have delay compensation in PTLE is due to the fact that their implementation does not work in all situations (and that it is not the equivalent of the same feature found on most other DAWs)?

I'm willing to be proven wrong (in fact I would love it, and might start using PTLE again), but I need more information than you telling us that you spoke with a few Digidesign engineers and a plugin developer. They told you how it works...not that it works as good as other DAWs FULL Plugin Delay Compensation.

Are you saying that it is?

JL

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Hi Blueboy...  ok two issues here... one is that you are taking the UAD-1 comments out of context...  What you need to do is preface your statement with this statement taken from the UAD-1 FAQ...

http://www.uaudio.com/support/software/UAD-1/FAQ.html#rtas
Is Digidesign RTAS supported?
Can I use the UAD-1 and Pro Tools?
Yes. The UAD-1 is compatible with Digidesign Pro Tools LE and TDM Mix/HD systems by using the UAD-1 version of the FXpansion VST to RTAS Adapter. Read all about RTAS support on the FXpansion VST to RTAS Adapter product pages.

So... If the UAD1 were, in fact, an RTAS plugin it wouldn't have issues with delay within protools LE.  The reason Protools doesn't adjust for plugin delay with the UAD1 is because it is actually a VST plugin being used through a translator/wrapper.

Second... you're quote about it not having a "full implementation of delay compensation" is something I already said in one of my previous posts in this thread... Protools will compensate for the delay so long as the buffer size is large enough to cover the delay... I will look into SX3 for you and see if the same holds true.  I would imagine the same problem will happen with SX3 as it does with LE and CPU intensive plugins when both are set to the same buffer setting.  Maybe Cubase can now have larger buffer settings compared to LE??  Theoretically speaking that's the only way SX3 would be able to do it.  It has to buffer in order to compensate, no matter how you look at it.  A composer I work for uses Cubase SX.  I'll try to swing by his place this weekend and test it out for you.

Quote:

Do you think that maybe Digidesign doesn't promote the fact that they have delay compensation in PTLE is due to the fact that their implementation does not work in all situations (and that it is not the equivalent of the same feature found on most other DAWs)?

Why do I get the feeling your personality strongly resembles that of Mel Gibson's character in the movie Conspiracy Theory?  Anyway, I would guess the reason Digi doesn't promote it, as far as I can tell, is because it is "a given".  All 32bit native mix engines have some sort of basic plugin delay compensation.  But it is actually the marketing staff at digidesign, not the engineering staff, that actually decides what features they will promote and which ones they don't.  You will probably see Digidesign start promoting LE delay compensation when they actually implement hardware delay compensation for LE (that is, if they ever do).

Quote:

...not that it works as good as other DAWs FULL Plugin Delay Compensation.

Please reread my previous post... here I'll actually re-post it for you since you seem to have skimmed over my other posts without catching much of the actual content...

Quote:

I'm not saying Protools is better than any other program, nor am I saying that any other program is better than Protools. All I'm saying is, Don't jump off the bridge just because you saw someone else do it. Unless you hear it with your own ears, don't go around preaching about it.

and just to save you the time... here's the quote where I am referring to the hardware buffer size issue...

Quote:

This is the flaw in your post you keep referring to... nobody mentions (at least as far as I could see) what their buffer size is. Yes... if you pile up plugins on one track you can eventually "break" the delay compensation...meaning you have more latency than the current buffer size and processor CPU % allocation can handle. But that holds true with any native DAW

So to recap... nothing has really changed has it?  other than there is the possibility that Cubase may now have a substantially larger maximum buffer size to handle plugins with large latency issues (which I will look into for you to see if this is true or not).  And oh, We've all learned that you have a tendency to skim over things a little too much when you read them... otherwise you would have realized that UAD1 is not a Protools plugin at all, and that I pretty much had already said everything you were trying to say in the second half of your post.  This is how misinformation starts... you skim... and you miss stuff!!  

Take care, and if we don't exchange any more posts before the weekend, have a good holiday weekend!

Peace.

-Derek

[blueboy]

I am just as interested as you in making sure that the correct information is reflected on a forum like this.

Can we please get past the inference that I do not understand the concept of various plugin formats, latency etc., and that I do not know how to read. The majority of people who frequent these forums generally have a decent level of knowledge on the topics involved.  

In terms of the UAD-1 plugins being VST plugins using a wrapper, the delay is due to the large amount of processing latency on hardware-based plugins...not the fact that it is a wrapper. The wrapper is not exactly a CPU hog.

Quote:

FXpansion claim that the adaptor code uses next to no CPU power, so the plug-ins should be nearly as efficient as in a native VST host like Cubase

Quote:

What is latency, and how does Pro Tools deal with latency? Latency occurs on a UAD-1 plugin because the audio travels from the application to the UAD-1 card and back.  Pro Tools HD has plug-in delay compensation (PDC), and this takes care of the latency.

Also, when Nuendo/Cubase refer to having full plugin latency compensation, they are referring to any plugin that is compatible with the system (VST or DX, VST<->DX wrappers, ). You don't have to preface it with "it works, except for when.... or as long as you don't exceed the buffer..., or unless you are using 3rd party hardware FX cards you will have full delay compensation...". I have never seen any reference to "full plugin delay compensation" not being exactly what is says it is.

RTAS is proprietary, so FXpansion had to pay for access to the plugin specification. I can't see a reason that they could not have implemented a function to transfer the reported VST plugin latency through to Pro Tools LE (unless Digidesign wouldn't allow it) .

Quote:

There is the problem of latency in these systems which Pro Tools can't adjust for automatically, but it can at least report the delay time (as with TDM plug-ins), allowing you to nudge audio to compensate.

There is a version of the FXpansion adapter that is "optimized" for the UAD-1, so it is fully compatible. They do not say..."PTLE does not have PDC for VST wrappers"....they say "PTLE does not have Plugin Delay Compensation".

Quote:

Does it add any latency? Not of itself - it's the same as regular RTAS plug-ins in that regard. Certain VST plug-ins, especially those running on DSP cards, do add latency. Pro Tools TDM/HD automatically compensates for this latency ("Automatic PDC"); Pro Tools LE and M-Powered do not. However, you can easily view the total latency in the Pro Tools mixer and compensate for it manually.

They also do not say that "Protools will compensate for the delay so long as the buffer size is large enough to cover the delay"...they say "always use our handy delay compensation plugin because "PTLE does not have Plugin Delay Compensation".

I find the "PDC is a given" argument a little hard to swallow as most DAW makers are so competitive with their feature lists these days that they list even the most insignificant ones, but hey you never know...

I have repeatedly pointed you to several sources that have stated that Pro Tools does not have full plugin delay compensation like other DAWs. I'm still waiting for another source from you, other than yourself, to support your claim. If Digidesign doesn't want to market the fact that they have it, they would at least have a support document somewhere stating that they do. Please give me a link.

This is Digi's tech support response from a DUC thread:

Quote:

Just want to make sure this is clear.. Pro Tools LE DOES compensate for host-based plug-ins using the CPU for processing by way of the HW buffer. That point seemed to be getting muddled in the disucssion of latencies introduced by 3rd-party hardware accelerators (which are not compensated for as noted above).

   http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=85903 2&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

There was no response that I could find to a question about host-based plugins that exceed the buffer limitation.


From the PT7 Ref Guide:

Quote:

Delay that Exceeds the Compensation Limit When the total delay on a track exceeds the amount of compensation available, Pro Tools applies the maximum available compensation, and displays the delay information in red (in the Delay Compensation View) for any tracks that cannot be fully compensated. The Delay Compensation indicator in the Edit window also turns red to indicate that the track delay exceeds the Delay Compensation limit. In this case, you need to bypass the track’s reported delay

There doesn't seem to be any reference to..or need for, a similar function in SX3 that I can find.

So the question is.....

Does PTLE implement PDC in a way that is different than other Native DAWs, and therefore is limited by the buffer, and cannot claim full PDC support?

If you can prove that the delay compensation in Pro Tools LE is implemented in the same fashion as other DAWs, and that they will all "fail" at some point due to a similar audio buffer issue, then we will all be grateful. I have yet to read or personally experience a delay compensation problem with SX3, no matter how many (or what type) of plugins I use.

AS many potential PTLE customers will be looking at options like the UAD-1 and Powercore to create a "Poor Man's PTHD system", I think that it is reasonable to point out that PTLE does not compensate for delays with these products.

Also, in case I skimmed over it, please explain the different implementations of PDC in PTLE and PTHD. It's in LE but you just can't enable and disable it. Could you see some potential problems with this scenario?

From the PT7 Plugins Guide:

Quote:

The TDM version of Maxim introduces 1028 samples of delay at 48 kHz into any processed signal. The RTAS version of Maxim introduces 1024 samples of delay. These delays will increase proportionally at higher sample rates. To preserve phase synchronicity between multiple audio sources when Maxim is only applied to one of these sources, use Delay Compensation (Pro Tools 6.4 and higher only), or the DigiRack Time Adjuster plug-in to compensate.

Is PDC already on (because you can't switch it on in LE). Or if it exceeds your buffer size, do you use the time adjuster plugin for this in PTLE?

Personally I like the SX3 concept of having full PDC on all the time (that you don't even have to think about), and only hitting the Constrain Delay (PDC off) button if I need to when recording.

Hopefully some of the of the more "techy programmer" types will read this and will shed some light on this.

Please let me know what you find out in your experiment.

JL

[NoWo]

Hi,

today I looked for the plug that wasn

[tamasdragon]

Yeah protools le is limited in delay compensation. As so it is in many other way. As many other software.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[Guest]

Hi!

As a 001,002 and Mbox owner I use PT LE 7 with great appreciation for most things.

However, even though the PDC is not an issue all the time I find to be a bit limited that one should need to deal with those things during the "creative process" - which do occur for certain mixing applications.

It would be interesting though - to know what other DAW manufacturers PDC capabilities are limited by.

How is the PDC implementation related to say:
- Buffer Size
- Performance (if different from PT LE "buffer solution")
- SW/HW Instruments and MIDI
- Accuracy of plugins reported latency

Cheers,
// Joakim W

Ps. LE would benefit from a Freeze track feature too.
Ds.

[phobia]

Hmm - did this thread die ?  

Cheers,
// J

[watusi]

whoa,hold on second everyone...can we address the topic?
Mr. chairman, if i may...

i know this is my first post,but i 've been here in days past (what the hell ever happened with bitch slap??)
anyhow, my situation is a bit like flippers. i won't even go into equipment specifics because it's so goddamn embarrasing. long story short, i'm ready to make the jump to hyperspace,got a brand-stinking-new dell (or access to big hammer Mac if it would be an advantage) and nooooo budget. so i've been researching around and looking at pro-tools (of course) but just because it's what everyone uses, it may not be for me.
i'm homestudio, one or two tracking at a time, with some decent outboard equipment,like a bellari rp533, a good akg condensor mike,a roland xp-80, some guitars and a brain.

pro-tools and the Mbox are in my price range but i'm sure going to look at the US-122 USB Audio Interface that comes with the cubase.


any other advice anyone wants to throw out here, i'd sure like to see it.

thanks y'all.

[blue2blue]

In light of this thread, I've been waiting for Digi to offer a rejoinder or correction or clarification to the lead review of Pro Tools LE 7 in the May Electronic Musician. Digi is a regular advertiser in the magazine and has offered comments and clarifications in the past.

  http://emusician.com/daw/emusic_digidesignpro_tools_le/index .html

That review states quite forthrightly:

Quote:

One plug-in — related feature not added in 7.0 is automatic delay compensation (ADC). Pro Tools LE and Pro Tools M-Powered are now the only major sequencers that don't have it. Especially for those using external hardware processors or accelerator-card — based DSP systems (such as Universal Audio UAD-1 and TC Electronic PowerCore), ADC would be a very handy addition.

AND lack of ADC is listed as the number one CON in the Pros and Cons sidebar where the program receives thumbnail ratings.

Two issues have passed since that issue (manufacturers' comments on reviews almost always appear in the very next month) but there hasn't been any comment/denial/correction from Digi...

Thoughts?

[blueboy]

Finally...an official response regarding delay compensation in PTLE.

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/support/docs/DelayCompPTLE& ;MP_29303.pdf

JL

[Jimibeen]

Although there is no delay compensation on Pro Tools LE, how hard is it to click the track indicator, find out the delay, and nudge your track the proper number of frames. This takes about 5 seconds and will fix your phasing issues.

*missed the part on the post above that describe this. But nonetheless, a very simple answer to your problem.

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi Flipper,

I've used ProTools Le for years. It works great.

Things to consider : Do you want to spend weeks learning the software? NO?

Then Le is for you. It only has two windows, and getting on with recording is easier than a lot of other DAW software.

I have used most of them, and also have seen the good and bad for most of them too.

The reason I recommend PT LE is twofold : The hardware work with the software (no de-bugging audio drivers every other day) And most studios in the western world have one. So there is a big community that can assist you. And there are tons of books and DVDs for instruction, should you wish to learn that way.

Cheers.

[Nick Sevilla]

blueboy wrote on Tue, 15 August 2006 10:40

Finally...an official response regarding delay compensation in PTLE.  http://akmedia.digidesign.com/support/docs/DelayCompPTLE& ;amp ;MP_29303.pdf JL

Hi,

Sorrry, I clicked on the link and got this:

Not Found

The requested URL /support/docs/DelayCompPTLE&MP_29303.pdf was not found on this server.

Apache/2.0.59 (Unix) JRun/4.0 mod_ssl/2.0.59 OpenSSL/0.9.7d DAV/2 Server at media.digidesign.com Port 80

Maybe it is another document?