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[j.hall]

i usually start by listening through the 2 mix, once i have the blend going and an overall level set, i switch over to listening through the "deck".

that usually occurs VERY early on and typically only for the first song.

when i first got the room wired, i spent a LONG time listening to CD's, raw tracks, my mixes.....then i started working and paying close attention to gain staging and how my console "liked" to operate.

i know how to hit my 2 buss now, and just have everything routed through my mix deck (PT) and back to the console's switching bank so i can monitor PT's return.

[John Ivan]

Yeah,, I don't really have a reason for waiting to monitor through the "deck", It's just being lazy I guess.. I should though, It does change how things glue together just a little. There is less of a difference between the 2 mix and the Layla compared to the 2-mix verses the 440-B. The 440-B is something that should be monitored from the beginning. .IT SOUNDS COOOOOOOLLLLL..... :-}

J. do you use a 2 buss comp?


Ivan....................

[j.hall]

yes.

one of my ssl clone comps is sitting on the 2 mix right now.

it barely sees any gain reduction at all.....but when i bypass it, i notice it a big difference.

i have to tweak the attack/release times for each song....and i'm not using any make up gain at all.

[lord]

xonlocust wrote on Thu, 21 July 2005 17:09

if your mixdown deck is calibrated to your console at 0db, how is it that you guys are determinig that your console being in the red or being pushed hard gives you what you're looking for and not hearing artifacts of the tape machine in the red?

Well, we're talking a "healthy hot" not "clipping".

If things are lined up right, more than likely your 2-track is seeing gonzo levels of tape compression + distortion way before the console thinks about clipping.

Studers have trims on the I/O so you can have both the board and the recorder in the sweet spot and have everything match up. On an Ampex like Ivan's, you need to build those yourself.

[xonlocust]

lord wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 12:02

xonlocust wrote on Thu, 21 July 2005 17:09 if your mixdown deck is calibrated to your console at 0db, how is it that you guys are determinig that your console being in the red or being pushed hard gives you what you're looking for and not hearing artifacts of the tape machine in the red? Well, we're talking a "healthy hot" not "clipping". If things are lined up right, more than likely your 2-track is seeing gonzo levels of tape compression + distortion way before the console thinks about clipping. Studers have trims on the I/O so you can have both the board and the recorder in the sweet spot and have everything match up. On an Ampex like Ivan's, you need to build those yourself.

i guess what i'm struggling with is how we're determining "lined up right".  at the studio i've been working at, 0vu on the console is 0vu on the studer.  so are you guys then making 0 on the console something like -1 on the 2 track so you can push harder?  when the console's in the red, way more than i "want" it to be, it still sounds fine, but i pull back to more conservative levels. perhaps i havent pushed the console as much as it can be pushed - or probably more accurately i'm conservative on levels...  

but if your 2mix is pinned, or "healthily hot" (where's that for you guys, like +3?) then your tape machine is also at +3 right?  so how are we attributing the effects of what we're hearing to either the console or the tape machine, since they're both running "out of spec"?  if that makes sense....  you guys are basically talking about trimming down the inputs of the 2track to account for your the excessive console levels?

if so, doesnt that totally fuck up calibration tones?

i have a feeling this is much simpler than i'm making it seem...

[lord]

Well there is a weird issue with just basic gain staging in that an analog recorder has lower dynamic range than the desk, but a modern digital recorder can have more than a cranky old desk. So your priorities are kind of switched depending on what you're mixing to.

I think people mixing to digital are making more of a big deal out of the 2-bus level thing, both to maximize SNR and to squeeze as much "rock" into the mix as possible.

Determining what is coming from the desk and what's coming from the 2-track is just a matter of toggling those tape monitor buttons. No secret there.

[John Ivan]

lord wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 12:02

xonlocust wrote on Thu, 21 July 2005 17:09 if your mixdown deck is calibrated to your console at 0db, how is it that you guys are determinig that your console being in the red or being pushed hard gives you what you're looking for and not hearing artifacts of the tape machine in the red? Well, we're talking a "healthy hot" not "clipping". If things are lined up right, more than likely your 2-track is seeing gonzo levels of tape compression + distortion way before the console thinks about clipping. Studers have trims on the I/O so you can have both the board and the recorder in the sweet spot and have everything match up. On an Ampex like Ivan's, you need to build those yourself.

For what it's worth, My 440-B came with input and output step pot's on it. {my old man rebuilt this machine and used really good shit.} Maybe I misunderstand the word "trim" in this case.

Ivan........

[John Ivan]

lord wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 14:17

Well there is a weird issue with just basic gain staging in that an analog recorder has lower dynamic range than the desk, but a modern digital recorder can have more than a cranky old desk. So your priorities are kind of switched depending on what you're mixing to. I think people mixing to digital are making more of a big deal out of the 2-bus level thing, both to maximize SNR and to squeeze as much "rock" into the mix as possible. Determining what is coming from the desk and what's coming from the 2-track is just a matter of toggling those tape monitor buttons. No secret there.

Yeah, one of the things I like about mixing to the computer is not having to worry about SNR so much. There really is a point on my console where the buss sounds really cool. I don't use a  comp on my 2 mix. One reason is, it makes it hard to hear when the mixer hits that point. Another is, I don't own one that I think is good enough... My rig is sorta nice, in a mid end sorta way.and I'm a dumpster divin' kinda guy,but I don't have a good two mix comp yet.

You guys are all getting together to buy me one for my Birthday August 15th,, Ummm ,,Right?? :-}

On the other hand, Printing to the 440B has a totally different sound. Not so different that it seems something is wrong but, just different. I want a 2" machine bad. I really Miss it..