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Author Topic: What are some common mistakes mixers make  (Read 19108 times)

Jerry Tubb

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2005, 01:21:53 AM »

Ronny wrote on Thu, 30 June 2005 13:26

That's what I thought back in 1975 when they came out with quad 8 track cassettes. Two years later everything was back to stereo.


Man I loved Quad... my best pal had a Motorola Quad in his 71' Z-28 Camaro !

When I first heard surround... those memories came rushing back !

Hope Surround, DVD-A, & SACD doesn't go the way of Quad and the Slide-Rule !
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maxim

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2005, 02:44:07 AM »

one quick look at the pop charts (or election results) and it's clear that complicated, intelligent, involved, selective, openminded is NOT what people want

what they want is pop/pap/pep food
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2005, 08:39:14 AM »

dcollins wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 14:53

When mastering from stems it's a given that it will take longer and cost more.
Not if they are REAL stems! It could easily take less time than fooling around with vocal up and down mixes.

bblackwood

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2005, 11:19:27 AM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 07:39

dcollins wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 14:53

When mastering from stems it's a given that it will take longer and cost more.
Not if they are REAL stems! It could easily take less time than fooling around with vocal up and down mixes.

Unless you want to print some 2-buss processing while mixing...
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Brad Blackwood
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2005, 12:12:04 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 10:19


Unless you want to print some 2-buss processing while mixing...


You're not talking about stems.

Stems BY DEFINITION run as a perfect mix with everything set to zero and no additional signal processing.

bblackwood

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2005, 07:38:42 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 02 July 2005 11:12

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 10:19


Unless you want to print some 2-buss processing while mixing...


You're not talking about stems.

Stems BY DEFINITION run as a perfect mix with everything set to zero and no additional signal processing.

Oh boy.

Kinda has to be that way, dunnit Bob?

That's my point...
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Brad Blackwood
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2005, 08:10:06 PM »

I just don't think it serves anybody to blur the meaning of what a stem mix is. Some projects benefit from one and many probably don't. The same is true of mix bus compression but in both cases it shouldn't EVER be about letting some mastering engineer finish one's mix. That's the point I think we need to make.

bobkatz

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2005, 10:56:52 AM »

smj wrote on Mon, 27 June 2005 22:56

I have been conversing with the ME about mastering from stems.
Unfortuantely I get sick when asking the person who is about to take my money for advice.  

I'm having a meeting with him this week.  Still, we have been trading e-mails.  He's a nice guy and I do trust him, but still...of course he's advising me it would be better if he mixed it and mastered it after.  Well duh!

Obviously you guys haven't heard the music....but if this were you, can you give a rough estimate as to how much time you would allow for a mastering job from stems?  I'm sure you've seen this before.

10 songs....60 minutes total.  4 piece band....drums, bass, guitar, keys.  Think John Scofield for reference.  I just want things to be sweetened a little.

I just would like to have a second opinion before I have this meeting.  We are friends....but I know he'll give me his sales pitch too.  

Sean M-J






Friends should not give friends "sales pitches". I never give a sales pitch, I only tell what I truly believe. And I believe that a Mastering engineer who asks for stems BEFORE listening to a mix should be avoided at all costs. AFTER he listens to the mix, if he can come up with good reasons why the stems are needed and you evaluate the economic alternatives, then there may be justification for stems.

When I ask for stems I give a good reason and I make damn sure the client is happy and feels that the result is better than if I had not received stems.

Around here the most common request for stems comes when I encounter a client who has restricted range monitoring and/or experience and he can't quite mix the bass well enough, and he knows he's having difficult with it, too. We have a discussion and presto, out comes a better master because he supplied a mix minus bass and bass stem.

How much extra does it cost to master with stems? Around here I'd allocate an hour per stem per album.
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e-cue

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2005, 06:38:39 PM »

How often are you ME's getting only stems?  When I've printed them, I've always printed a full set of regular 2 track passes.  The stems are a failsafe after thought.  Sometimes, actually, most of the time I print them without mastering even in mind.  For example, I had to do a recall recently because a guitarist wanted writing credit for an ad lib part he did at the end of a track. and the artist didn't feel it was warranted.  If we had printed stems, this would have been a much more cost effective issue to deal with.
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Mixerman

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2005, 07:19:43 PM »

Level wrote on Fri, 24 June 2005 17:33

Problems, the mixer did not acquaint themselves with the source energy and try to duplicate it.

This is an old broken record, skipping along at 33.33RPM.


Folks, it is not that hard to do a really tight mix. Acquaint translation then acquaint to source, extrapolate and move forward.

If your monitors are lying that much, quit and stop. Reconfigure your entire playback chain until you can actually trust it somewhat.

Damn...it is not that hard.

Brad, I am on remote server, pictures after the fourth..


This is precisely why you're a mastering engineer and not a mixer. I mean, I assume you are. Hopefully you're not mixing, because this is some of the most backwards thinking I've ever seen where the art of mixing is concerned.

A good mix provides the vehicle for the emotional impact of the song. One of the more important parts of mixing, as with production is selecting the parts that will make the arrangement. Not everything that was recorded should go in the mix, especially these days, as the Alsihad generation seems incapable of commitment where production decisions are concerned. In these cases the mixer needs to be a better producer (and arranger) than the producer himself. Of course, Bob Katz wants stems, so in those cases he would be the mixer, but I digress.

Mixing is an art form. Yes, I prefer rooms that have accurate monitoring, but frankly, I more prefer rooms that have good translation. An important distinction. There are some rooms that I've mixed in that are really fucked where monitoring is concerned, but the mixes translate great. Sometimes it's not such a bad thing to be mixing in a room that's not acoustically ideal, sometimes it's not. But certainly I can't just give up when I find myself in a less than ideal situation.

Mastering engineers are often under the misguided opinion that the best mixes require the least processing. Yes, I prefer to have nothing but a taste of broad band high-end added to my mixes along with some limiting, however, in the end all I care about is the following: does the record make me want to sing? Guess what? If the song was there in the first place, and the performances are great, the mix will be great (so long as I've done my job, and I do! I do!). If the song sucks, who gives a shit if the ME runs the thing flat? The mix still fucking sucks. I don't give up when the song sucks either. I do my best to bring the song to its fullest potential.

Accurate monitoring is a fallacy. There's no such thing. No matter what room; good, bad, or awful in it's monitoring, I have to reset my head to the room. I have to listen to other source material to get some idea of what the room is doing to the sound. It would be great if I worked in the same room all the time, but the problem with that is all the mixes start sounding the same. That's not mixing, and mixing is not mastering.

In reality, mixing is probably the hardest engineering job to do well. Even harder than producing because as E-Cue pointed out, mixers have to be the ultimate diplomat, dealing with sometimes 10 or more different opinions all the while avoiding a mix turning into a communal cluster fuck. Often times a good mix takes leadership, and an ability to present clear and concise reasons why someone's "opinion" doesn't work.

So, you see, mixing isn't about making a "tight mix", unless a "tight mix" is what's called for. Personally, I'd rather hear an inspirational mix that has some slightly fucked EQ curves, than a boring one that merely needs some level.

Lest us not forget, this is music.

Mixerman



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Bob Olhsson

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2005, 05:50:34 PM »

Mixerman wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 18:19

I prefer rooms that have accurate monitoring, but frankly, I more prefer rooms that have good translation. An important distinction.

VERY important. This is also about "what do the monitors make me do?" I'm finding this to also be true of digital converters in the monitor path which was a bit of surprise.

danickstr

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2005, 05:54:55 PM »

i don't see why peeps are trying to tear this guy a new hole when his explanation of a mastering session is mainly about fundamentals as they apply to mastering.  if they are understood correctly and the room is right and the speakers are understood, (and you have years of experience, which he didn't mention) then its a case of creating a balanced listening experience.  

He failed to mention that you can't always compensate for a shitty mix with a bunch of crap in it, but these are two different aspects of mastering, the latter being a case where it might be best to refuse the job until they find a mixer that can do it right.  I think his implication that the mix was ok to start with is kind of understood, but maybe not to some.
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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2005, 10:41:25 AM »

stratowanker wrote on Fri, 24 June 2005 13:57

What are some of the most common mistakes you see mixer's make?


How about out-of-phase stereo string pad in the mix?
out-of-phase stereo dist guitar?
excessive sibilance that wash the reverb too
out-of-phase reverb?
Dull hihats and bright cymbals?
Out of tune bass?

BO
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: What are some common mistakes mixers make
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2005, 03:38:45 PM »

I got one once with an out of phase lead vocal! The A&R guy had a LONG talk with the artist about doing another mix.
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