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Author Topic: Annoying ProTools experience  (Read 11282 times)

Loco

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2005, 06:07:59 pm »

David Schober wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 09:06

Are you sure about that?  That's not the case for me.  I even went back to double check this and opened a session with four takes, multiple punches and edits and all of the punches and edites are right there as before.  I made a new playlist and chopped away.  No problem.  The playlist is the playlist....no matter punches or edits.  I've never seen what you're describing.  (I'd suspect PT sees a punch to be the same as an edit)  You may have made an operational error


Maybe I didn't made myself clear. If you want to keep all the playlists if you want to undo you need to make a "save as" just to keep things organized. However...

Quote:

Secondly, using the "Save as" doesn't delete files.  Unless you delete tracks and/or clear the files from the bin they're still there, like all the rest of their kin, in the audio files folder.


Exactly. PT projects can grow incredibly fast. You need to delete unused files regularly, usually before closing the session. But if you delete files on an edited session just after you made the "save as" thing, you may delete a bunch of files used on the unedited version and you can't go back to it.

There's where the beauty of DP comes in. All the versions can be on a single project file that controls all the media and not several session files pointing at the same media. With PT you have to be extra-careful or just let the session grow beyond the capabilities of a DVD backup. And when you do hundreds of songs per year that's not a good thing.

Quote:

I don't delete the extra files until I'm either finished with a mix or convinced there will be no more changes.  But if I wanted it's quite easy to delete them, or better yet, "Save session Copy in" to a new hard drive, after I've removed the unneeded files, which allows me to run a smaller session, but still have the originals in case they're needed.


That's a lot of HD real state you're using there. You may be generating more data than you can backup, restore and keep track of. Also, there will be always changes until you see the CD at the record store. You know that you never finish a song/mix; you abandon it.
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya

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pipelineaudio

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2005, 06:21:35 pm »

If you are just looking for an unreal digital razorblade

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/Products/ShowProduct.asp?PI D=965

Vegas is hands down the best and fastest editor out there. It has its weaknesses ( BIG ONES!!! ) but in editing it shines. Us geeks around here will race on edits every once in a while, and any of my interns can smoke the uber users of other apps when it comes to speed and accuracy of edits, ESPECIALLY in the difficult case for most apps of when there is no click track.
Our Samplitude rep though is getting close, and that app is looking better and better in the editing department.

Samplitude and Cubendo though, with RME gear make unreal zero latency recording machines. PT only seems somewhat adequate for editing when there is a click, and each event starts at the accent ( not real world except maybe midi ).

Sam and Vegas allow you to just use ONE mouse tool if you want for everything, selecting, splitting, resizing, per event fade and volume, delete, move, copy, every editing function you can think of. Awesome editors, for recorders though PT and Nuendo have them both beat IMHO.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2005, 08:34:01 pm »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 12:57

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 14:15

I like when I take a razor blade and slice out a chunk of the 2" and all the takes move together.  

Very Happy


See my earlier post.  With a live band and 20 takes of vocals on 2" it wouldn't be quite as easy as you make it sound.  Sync becomes an issue too...if you don't cut one reel exactly the same as the other the SMPTE timecode will drop frames which could potential mess things up upon playback as well.

Using playlists in protools isn't like using ONE 2" machine.  It's like using MULTIPLE 2" machines.




Well, I would edit the takes and or take out chunks of the song before striping with timecode.  I would definitely splice my edit together before making a slave and overdubbing to it.
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studio info

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finster

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2005, 10:57:02 pm »

Ive had the same issue.

Fortunately its a lesson you only have to learn once.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2005, 01:25:01 am »

I am fortunate to say that of all the stupid mistakes I've ever made in the studio, splicing striped and already slaved masters are not one of them!  I have had some real deuzies, though.  Trial and terror, man.  Trial and terror.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

wwittman

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2005, 01:27:46 am »

Rail Jon Rogut wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 15:57

If you cut the 2" you also would have not have had 200 takes of vocals in playlists to worry about.  And having the singer wait for an edited track is perfectly acceptable.

Rail


I don't have 200 tracks... i wouldn't be caught DEAD having 200 tracks,
and with all due respect, I don't think it's up to you to decide what's "acceptable" for other people.

If it's not acceptable to the singer and the flow of the session, it's not.

The singer was willing to wait... but it severely stopped the flow of the session and we got nothing else done that night.
THAT's not acceptable.
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danickstr

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2005, 10:17:56 am »

flow is important and unpredictable, fer shure.  pro tools and flow.  kinda like monkeys and handguns.
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henchman

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2005, 02:11:28 pm »

danickstr wrote on Fri, 15 July 2005 07:17

flow is important and unpredictable, fer shure.  pro tools and flow.  kinda like monkeys and handguns.


Hahahahahahaha.. Bingo.

henchman

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2005, 02:13:08 pm »

rankus wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 09:00

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 08:29

Nuendo anyone??  Wink


Thats what I was thinking through this whole thread, but did not have the guts to mention it...   Very Happy




That makes 3 of us.

David Schober

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2005, 03:58:09 pm »

Loco wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 17:07

Exactly. PT projects can grow incredibly fast. You need to delete unused files regularly, usually before closing the session. But if you delete files on an edited session just after you made the "save as" thing, you may delete a bunch of files used on the unedited version and you can't go back to it.


Well of course you can't recall deleted files!

So which is it you want?  Do you want to delete the data so the file is smaller, or keep it so you can recall it later?  As I said before, it's a simple matter to "Remove" instead of delete so the session doesn't have to manage it.  Need the old files? "Import session data."  I'm no DP expert so I can't comment on it, but this is not a PT problem.  I'm not saying one is better or worse, but the software easily handles these issues...providing it's used properly of course.

Quote:

That's a lot of HD real state you're using there. You may be generating more data than you can backup, restore and keep track of. Also, there will be always changes until you see the CD at the record store. You know that you never finish a song/mix; you abandon it.


The only time I've had large files problems is during live recordings.  As I said, I'll have a recording drive from which the individual takes are bounced to a work/mix drive, which is then due to lower track count, smaller than most studio recordings.

The thing you seem to forget its that DP, PT, whatever uses the same amount of disk space for audio.  The format doesn't change that.  The sessions get large depending only on how many outtakes you choose to keep.  How the program housekeeps all of this is a personal preference.  But anyone who has problems in PT with this sort of thing hasn't fully understood how to best use it.  IMHO anyway....
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David Schober

David Schober

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2005, 04:16:50 pm »

As for 2" editing....

I grew up on the format and never found an edit I couldn't make.

But I'd never go back.  Talk about making the artist or producer wait....

Using a DAW on more than one occasion I've been able to make edits while the players are still sitting in their chairs cracking jokes.  Being able to do this while the players are still in the moment is infinitely better than sending them out for a break while I have to pull up a previous reel and wind back to the desired take.  If the edit wasn't right you'd have to hope the guys could quickly get back into the head space they were in before.

Same thing has happened in the middle of a lead vocal.  It took only seconds and the singer was able to stay in the flow of her lead.

I'm sorry William you experience wasn't so good.  You prefer analog and I understand.  I can also understand why you thought PT would do what you wanted.  But if ever again on PT, as I stated, there is a pretty easy to do this.  Hopefully this thread helped this problem.

I will say tho, I miss the smell of tape.  It's a sense memory I'm glad I have.  The new generation missed that one.  
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David Schober

Eric Rudd

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2005, 04:45:33 pm »

David Schober wrote on Fri, 15 July 2005 21:16


I will say tho, I miss the smell of tape.  It's a sense memory I'm glad I have.  The new generation missed that one.  


I've heard that Digidesign and Glade are working together to replicate the smells of both 456 and 250. HD compatible. Maybe you've heard of it???

They're called....    
Glade
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David Schober

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2005, 07:35:01 pm »

Eric Rudd wrote on Fri, 15 July 2005 15:45


I've heard that Digidesign and Glade are working together to replicate the smells of both 456 and 250. HD compatible. Maybe you've heard of it???

They're called....    
Glade
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David Schober

Greg Dixon

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2005, 09:07:25 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 07:15

I like when I take a razor blade and slice out a chunk of the 2" and all the takes move together.  

Very Happy


I know you're being facetious, but if you treat PT like it's tape, then you can do the edits just as well as tape.

I do agree though. It seems like quite an oversight by the designers.
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2005, 02:57:49 pm »

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 17:34

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 12:57

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 14:15

I like when I take a razor blade and slice out a chunk of the 2" and all the takes move together.  

Very Happy


See my earlier post.  With a live band and 20 takes of vocals on 2" it wouldn't be quite as easy as you make it sound.  Sync becomes an issue too...if you don't cut one reel exactly the same as the other the SMPTE timecode will drop frames which could potential mess things up upon playback as well.

Using playlists in protools isn't like using ONE 2" machine.  It's like using MULTIPLE 2" machines.




Well, I would edit the takes and or take out chunks of the song before striping with timecode.  I would definitely splice my edit together before making a slave and overdubbing to it.


But that's William's problem...he already has past that point.  Once you start using a second playlist, it's like making a slave and overdubbing to it.

I agree that there should be a toggle in prefs to allow all playlists to be editing at once...but William was saying it was a major oversight on the part of the designers and that if it were 2" it would have been easy.  My point was that if it were tape it would have been MUCH more difficult.
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