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[Bob Olhsson]

What about the preference:

“Separate Region” Operates On All Related
Takes When selected, editing a region with the
Separate Region command also affects all other
related takes with the same User Time Stamp.
This option helps you compare different sections
from a group of related takes.

[J.J. Blair]

But if you punch in you don't have the same time stamp.  But I guess that could be worked atround by consolidating the files on each playlist before trying that procedure?

[David Schober]

William,

easy way out....

Once you know you need an edit and have underlying playlists, as Loco said, make new tracks and put the alternate playlists on them.  So if you have five total vocal takes, you open four more tracks, put the playlists in them and edit away.  It's really no big deal and the example I gave should take all of about 30 seconds.  You can also of course put the vocals back into playlists if you want. This is contrary to Locos' comment that it can't be undone...if I understood him correctly)

Personally I don't see this as a flaw.  There are very good reasons not to have the playlists edit.  By not editing the underlying playlsts you have, within the same session, the raw unedited files so if anyone changes their mind about any aspect of the edit (that never happens!) the unedited files are right there.  Without meaning to come off arrogant, there's a proper way to do this.  If you don't you can have problems.

For ex. I make a duplicate playlist to edit into as the final master.  (the duplicate playlist feature can be a lifesaver for all sorts of things)  What's good about this is no matter how much I cut up the song, I'm only one click away from my original.  If the playlists were edited as well I'd be stuck having to open up a previous session (providing I used "Save as...") to get back to the original.  
A preference option for this would be nice I guess, but I'd never use it.

If you open a session with all the info but previous to the edit (hopefully you use "Save as.." and do this, all you'll need to do is redo the edit you made and your vocal takes will line up.  

[Loco]

David Schober wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 14:36

You can also of course put the vocals back into playlists if you want. This is contrary to Locos' comment that it can't be undone...if I understood him correctly)

If the section you edit out has several punch-ins you cannot bring it back with this method one you close the session or go over the max levels of undo. You can make a "save as" before it but that will make audio files management a nightmare since the session that will be controlling the audio files folder will be the one shortened one, and you may lose files you want later on if you cleanup. But if you choose not to cleanup then you'll have a never-ending-growing session. I nkow, PT sucks at this matter but that's its design. that' why I love DP's chunk management where you have everything you need and only what you need.

[J.J. Blair]

I like when I take a razor blade and slice out a chunk of the 2" and all the takes move together.  

[Paul Mills]

David Schober wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 13:36

William,  It's really no big deal and the example I gave should take all of about 30 seconds.   Personally I don't see this as a flaw.  There are very good reasons not to have the playlists edit.  By not editing the underlying playlsts you have, within the same session, the raw unedited files so if anyone changes their mind about any aspect of the edit (that never happens!) the unedited files are right there.   For ex. I make a duplicate playlist to edit into as the final master.  (the duplicate playlist feature can be a lifesaver for all sorts of things)  What's good about this is no matter how much I cut up the song, I'm only one click away from my original.  If the playlists were edited as well I'd be stuck having to open up a previous session (providing I used "Save as...") to get back to the original.   A preference option for this would be nice I guess, but I'd never use it.

Hey Dave, hope you're well.

Sounds like you're making the whole song (all tracks) an alternate playlist.  Sounds like a great way to edit the song and be able to get back to square one quickly.  But I still wish we had the choice.

Everybody works differently, and for me this IS a major pain in the butt (maybe not a flaw, but it needs fixin') in Pro Tools.  Not only do alternate playlists not get edited, BUT ANY hidden tracks do not get edited either.  That just doesn't make sense to me.  Especially since if you edit automation on a track that is part of a group, and some tracks in that group are hidden, Pro Tools will give you a window that says the operation will affect those hidden tracks.  So it IS possible for Pro Tools to keep up with hidden tracks and alternate playlists, they just haven't written it in yet as part of audio editing yet.

Imagine having an hour and a half session (live project) with 13 songs, each with about 20 vocal takes, maybe some alternate guitar takes, some alternate keys takes etc.  Now imagine you need to edit choruses, verses, shorten intros, extend lead sections on 10 of those songs.  It's gonna get pretty complicated copying all those alternate playlists to new tracks, especially since all the songs are different.

Plus, keeping up with edits on multiple songs can really get stuff out of sync down the line.

When I edit a song, I ALWAYS put the edit at the end of the session.  So if I cut out a chorus, I paste that chorus at the end of the session and label it with a marker.  That way if I need to get back I just grab the section and paste it back in with shuffle on.  That's the way I handle your example of people changing their minds (does that really happen in your sessions?).

IF PRO TOOLS WOULD let me edit all the alternate playlists/hidden tracks (with a toggle preference) then all those alternate playlists would follow my edited chorus down to the end of the session, BUT MY SONG would still be intact as a unit, all tracks in sync, and I could still grab an alternate vocal phrase if I wanted it.  AND I would not have to mess with creating 19 other vocal tracks just so I can edit out a chorus.

A preference would be a lifesaver for me.  I've already put this in about three times as a feature request on the phone to Digi.  Digi says they did it this way for the Video Post guys, but agreed that a preference would be nice for the audio guys.  I'd pay good money for this preference (hey, I've already paid good money!!).

[RKrizman]

Paul Mills wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 18:34

Imagine having an hour and a half session (live project) with 13 songs, each with about 20 vocal takes, maybe some alternate guitar takes, some alternate keys takes etc.

What kind of live project has 20 vocal takes?

But I see your point anyway.  You're a brave man editing 13 songs in a single session.

-R

[Rail Jon Rogut]

I don't believe in all the years that I've been using Pro Tools (since the early 90's) I've ever wished more than twice that playlist edits were done globaly -- I usually would have a comp of the performances done by the time I needed to do the edit or I'd simply postpone the edit until all the overdubs were done.

It's still a valid feature request though and will no doubt be added in a future revision... I just don't see it as an impediment to getting my work done now though.

Rail

[J.J. Blair]

RKrizman wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 21:25

What kind of live project has 20 vocal takes? -R

I know you are referring to live projects, but ... I recall hearing stories back in the analog days about Peter Gabriel doing 23 vocal takes for comping.  I heard about Natalie Cole doing over 40.  I one time had a singer that was so bad, on certain sections of one song, because I just looped it over and over, and then had to go back and have him do it again, and again, I had over 60 takes of one verse ... and I still had to tune him!  Naturally, the vocal portion of that project was done to PT.  

[David Schober]

Loco wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 15:55

David Schober wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 14:36 You can also of course put the vocals back into playlists if you want. This is contrary to Locos' comment that it can't be undone...if I understood him correctly) If the section you edit out has several punch-ins you cannot bring it back with this method one you close the session or go over the max levels of undo. You can make a "save as" before it but that will make audio files management a nightmare since the session that will be controlling the audio files folder will be the one shortened one, and you may lose files you want later on if you cleanup. But if you choose not to cleanup then you'll have a never-ending-growing session. I nkow, PT sucks at this matter but that's its design. that' why I love DP's chunk management where you have everything you need and only what you need.

Are you sure about that?  That's not the case for me.  I even went back to double check this and opened a session with four takes, multiple punches and edits and all of the punches and edites are right there as before.  I made a new playlist and chopped away.  No problem.  The playlist is the playlist....no matter punches or edits.  I've never seen what you're describing.  (I'd suspect PT sees a punch to be the same as an edit)  You may have made an operational error

Secondly, using the "Save as" doesn't delete files.  Unless you delete tracks and/or clear the files from the bin they're still there, like all the rest of their kin, in the audio files folder.  It appears you're aruging both sides of the issue...losing files and keeping all the outtakes.  It's really dependent on how you want to work.  I don't delete the extra files until I'm either finished with a mix or convinced there will be no more changes.  But if I wanted it's quite easy to delete them, or better yet, "Save session Copy in" to a new hard drive, after I've removed the unneeded files, which allows me to run a smaller session, but still have the originals in case they're needed.

Maybe I'm missing something, but file management isn't that hard.  Perhaps you're more familiar with DP than PT so it is more natural to you.  But there is a pretty easy method to as you said, "have everything you need and only what you need."

[PookyNMR]

Nuendo anyone??  

[rankus]

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 14 July 2005 08:29

Nuendo anyone??

Thats what I was thinking through this whole thread, but did not have the guts to mention it...  

[wwittman]

Loco wrote on Tue, 12 July 2005 16:30

the program was never designed with musicians in mind but with audio editors in mind. It's a direct son of Sound Designer evolved into something the Avid people designed.

I've been an "audio editor" for 35 years and i think it's computer programmer wrongheadedness

It happens ALL the time in making record that multiple vocal take or solo takes are kept as options.
and in this case we were in the middle of singing when it was decided that the song should be shortened.
and that happens... one cannot always PLAN when the edit will need to occur and one certainly can't say let's stop and rearrange everything so that the program will "let" me edit.
When the singer says "let's try it going straight from the verse to the middle-8" it's supposed to be FASTER.

I could have cut the 2" in about 60 seconds.

Juts as JJ said, just as ANYONE who makes records on multitrack recorders would want, when we cut the SONG, all takes and options should be cut with it.

we had just recorded 8 vocal passes... the idea that i need to spread them out before editing is certainly a workaround... but not a preferable one.
It's a waste of time that should not be necessary.

it's crystal clear to me that no one THOUGHT about it when they wrote this code.
If they had spent some years professionally making records on tape, they WOULD have.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

If you cut the 2" you also would have not have had 200 takes of vocals in playlists to worry about.  And having the singer wait for an edited track is perfectly acceptable.

Rail

[Etch-A-Sketch]

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 13 July 2005 14:15

I like when I take a razor blade and slice out a chunk of the 2" and all the takes move together.

See my earlier post.  With a live band and 20 takes of vocals on 2" it wouldn't be quite as easy as you make it sound.  Sync becomes an issue too...if you don't cut one reel exactly the same as the other the SMPTE timecode will drop frames which could potential mess things up upon playback as well.

Using playlists in protools isn't like using ONE 2" machine.  It's like using MULTIPLE 2" machines.