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Author Topic: Annoying ProTools experience  (Read 11280 times)

wwittman

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Annoying ProTools experience
« on: July 11, 2005, 10:18:56 pm »

Okay you PT boffins... help with this one.

I THINK it's not a choice, but rather a "feature" (read that as: stupid part of the program)... but enlighten me if I am wrong...PLEASE

anyway,

I have a multi-track session evolved over months that includes multiople underlying playlists.
That is, there is a vocal track with the comp vocal as the top level playlist, but 'under' it are all the original vocal takes.
Same thing with other overdubs, sometimes with edited cut or pasted versions on top of original takes in unerlying playlists.

Now, at this stage, we decide to suck out the second chorus and go stragiht form verse 2 to the middle-8.
So i select Chorus 2 and in SHUFFLE mode hit delete.
This deletes chorus 2 and brings the middle-8 and everything after it forward to the right new spot.
I adjust the margins of the edit on each track and everything is fine...
EXCEPT that the underlying playsists are NOT edited.
NOW if I want to go to another vocal take it's out of sync becasue it still has the offending chorus remaining in place.
And if the track was NOT cut to a click and isn't on a perfect grid, it's not so easy to suck out the EXACT same 8 bars on multiple takes across multiple tracks and playlists.

this SUCKS.
this is STUPID.
this is in no way a defensible CHOICE they made... it's clearly, to ME anyway, BAD programming by people who never made a f^&*king record in their lives.
(is my annoyance coming through?)

so talk me down... if there is NOT an "Edit includes underlying playlists" command there NEEDS TO BE!!!

this makes every bit as much sense as cutting the 2" tape but having tracks 22 and 23 not being edited.

If I am missing something stupid and obvious here PLEASE educate me.
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William Wittman
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Revolution

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2005, 10:33:22 pm »

Yep
Im runnung 6.7 TDM and ran into that as well. What a way to find out .Left me rather embarresed after gloating about some rather nifty editing then to bring in some alternative takes to see them out of sync. I certanly hope there isn't an option as it should be a default as you say.
Im still wondering why I have a Control 24 console where half the buttons have no function.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2005, 11:57:45 pm »

I've had that happen before.  Have you posted on the DUC?  Maybe some genius there has an answer.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

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Sarusan

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2005, 12:04:35 am »

You're not missing anything.  There's no easy way to deal with this.  The underlying playlists will not be effected by the shuffle mode editing.

What you might do though is to create a memory location of that section on your vocal track and manually go through all of the playlists, cutting out those eight bars in shuffle mode.  It's one of those endless, tedious things that you have to do manually but it really shouldn't take too long.

Steven
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Les Ismore

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2005, 12:26:42 am »

Yup, it's like they say. you have to go through every level and edit them as well if you want it to all sync up.
This is where the markers become your dear friends. Just mark the spots, naming them if neccessary for your ease of memory, and then do the same edits throughout the different layers of different tracks.
It may seem like a mistake in design, but I have run into many situations where having PT do this automatically would be a real problem. Say you were just wanting to shuffle some stuff for instance.
Perhaps like you say, a toggleable function.
Have fun!
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Curve Dominant

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2005, 12:58:41 am »

This is why I don't use "playlists" in PT. My very limited experience with that one function left me baffled, bewildered, and feeling way too A.D.D. to bother with it.

So I devised a work-around by bouncing the entire instrumental mix to a stereo file, and importing it into a dedicated vocal tracking session. So basically I've got a session with 22 tracks for tracking and summing vocals, which I can refer back to and revise/update at any time, the results of which I then import into the original "master" session. Which works. I like it actually because I can go into the "vocal session" and "see" all the vocals arranged how I've tracked them, and summed them.

I do the same for tracking guitars, drums, whatever: Dedicated tracking sessions, recorded, edited and summed along with a bounced stereo file with everything but that instrument, then import the finished results into the master mix session. Jumping through hoops? Yeah, but we do what we gotta do, and it beats the sh&t outta that "playlists" bullsh&t (for me anyways).

YMMV.

maxim

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2005, 06:23:45 am »

i'm with eric on this one

unfortunately, it can't be done (as far as i know), so you have to be prepared for it
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2005, 10:01:24 am »

Guys

it can be done very easely. Go to the midi menu, and there is a function for "cut time" and one for "insert time". It will also edit the underlaying playlists. No idea why it is in the midi menue though.... This feature is new in 6.9 (or 6.7). Before I agree it was pain in the ass...

daniel
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Rail Jon Rogut

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2005, 12:12:13 pm »

Nope -- the new 6.9 features only manipulate the current timeline (I just checked).  Hopefully this'll be fixed in a future revision.

Rail
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2005, 02:36:09 pm »

Quote:

Nope -- the new 6.9 features only manipulate the current timeline (I just checked). Hopefully this'll be fixed in a future revision.


Maybe I understand something wrong...

Lets say I want to cut 4 bars out of my song. I have underlaying playlists, that I want that they also will be cuted those 4 bars out. It was not possible before PT 6.7, but now I do this all day with that "cut time" command in the Midi menu. It afects all tracks (Midi and Audio), all underlaying playlists, and all rulers. Works perfect here. Same goes for "insert time".

Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2005, 03:50:09 pm »

I just tried it here...nope, cut/insert time doesn't do anything to alternate playlists.

One thing I do if it's just a couple of tracks that have playlists (like say the vocal and the lead guitar), you can create mono track for each hidden playlist... then move the playlist onto that new track (using "other playlists from the menu)...do your editing, and then switch each track to its original playlist, move it back to it's original track (using other playlists) then delete the new tracks.

it's kind of a pain in the butt to have to do that, but I can see why it doesn't alter other playlists.  For post, it is really good to do your conforming on a duplicate playlist that way you have each cut list on a separate playlist in the session.

But...usually I try to tell clients to make critical changes like removing a verse either in preproduction or right before we go to mix.  That way you're not dealing with playlists out of sync.  But if you have to, moving the playlists onto other tracks can work fairly quickly for you.

William also mentioned that editing playlists should work like editing analog 2" tape...I would have argue that it does work just like 2" as it is now!!!!  Think about it....

 Each playlist is like a second 2" machine that's sync'd to the first 2" machine or sync'd to some sequencer using SMPTE.  Each time you switch to a new playlist it's like taking one reel of tape off and putting another reel on.  If you edit the first 24-track reel, you can't expect the second reel to automatically be adjusted just cuz they were in sync when you started.  Nope, you have to also cut the second reel as well!  Playlists are the same way.  

Think of it this way...you've tracked the band on 20 tracks of a 24-track 2" reel...you know the vocalist is going to take at least 8 tracks for the lead, so you stripe a second 2" reel with SMPTE and sync it to the reel with the band on it.  You do 20 tracks of vocals!!!  You come up with a roadmap for your comp and you automate it.  Then you record that automated version back onto track 21 on the reel with the band.  Two days later the band decides to have you cut the second verse out...so you edit the 2" reel (hopefully a copy of it) and you cut out the second verse.  Then a few days later the singer decides he doesn't like what he's singing on the outro and wants to use a different take...you put the vocal reel of 20 tracks back on the second 2" deck and wadda ya know!!!  It's out of sync!!!  Why, cuz you never cut the second verse out of the vocal reel, just the band reel.  It's just like the way Protools works when editing using playlists!!!  How 'bout that....Protools really does work similar to 2" tape after all.  Wink

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Loco

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2005, 04:30:20 pm »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 11 July 2005 22:18

this SUCKS.
this is STUPID.
this is in no way a defensible CHOICE they made... it's clearly, to ME anyway, BAD programming by people who never made a f^&*king record in their lives.
(is my annoyance coming through?)


Nope. It's just the truth. the program was never designed with musicians in mind but with audio editors in mind. It's a direct son of Sound Designer evolved into something the Avid people designed.

To work-around it....

a. create new tracks and call up the alternate playlists to them, and then make the edition. This cannot be undone.

b. put markers on your edit points and make sure you number them as well so you know in what order you made the editions. When you need to call up another take, select the regions to shuffle with the markers and then shuffle in the order you made the edition.

c. go one by one at the ime of the edition. Keep in mind this cannot be undone.

d. make up your mind on what is final and then make the edition. Never look back.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2005, 07:01:40 pm »

That will be fun for when I have 24 vocal takes.  LOL.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

danickstr

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2005, 08:15:17 pm »

If Rail has no solution, mighty Casey has struck out.
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fnirvana

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Re: Annoying ProTools experience
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2005, 07:55:40 am »

Well... you can shift-grab all the vocal takes from the browser and drop them on the session (opens each on its own track) and then spot them to their original locations.

That's a little simpler than playing with playlists...
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