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Author Topic: How did you learn audio engineering?  (Read 21867 times)

Curve Dominant

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2005, 10:16:45 PM »

rankus wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 16:48

Gentlemen.  Time to put this thread to sleep.


A case can be made for this because the topic has veered to posting about how people are posting. It's no longer about audio (which is my sole interest for being here), but rather a contest to see who can most cleverly extract quotes out of context, and use them to smear their opponent. Which may be entirely useful for those planning to join a debating team, or the Bush Administration, but hardly useful in pushing forward any discourse concerning audio arts and sciences.

The thread title is "How did you learn audio engineering?" I learn about it every day, but I don't learn it from interminable arguments over how we post on the internet. I learn it mostly from rising to the various challenges my artists present me with. Those challenges most often are above the "matching mics with preamps" variety - that is NOT all that audio engineering is about IMO. It is one aspect. But getting artists to perform in ways that will translate their core intent and reveal their core essence, and then utilizing my recording and mixing gear to enhance that, will transcend those sonic preferences which ENGINEERS tend to hold dear, but which artists and their audiences tend to know or care little about. That is: Making a recording so that the audience feels the artist's energy, rather than making a recording where the audience hears the gear and the recording technique but the artist's energy is lost in the focus on the gear and the scholastic approach to recording.

And this is precisely what rubs certain people on these forums wrong about some of my postings: They feel they don't have anything to learn in that regard, because they are "traditionally educated" by the recording schools, interning, assisting, et al, and so they stoop to attacking my culinary interests (which have absolutely no business being discussed on this forum unless I bring it up).

Artists tell me this regularly, how they feel the "pro" studios and their engineering staffs do not make any effort to understand what they are trying to do. They don't feel their core essence is even cared about, let alone catered to. So I share this information here, on a forum entitled "Reason In Audio," because I care about music. And I get attacked for it, by people who claim they know everything, and I don't, so I should just shut up and listen to THEM.

This is the inherent conflict in our industry, and it is pervasive. Don't take my word for it, because it's not something I dreamed up in my free time. Artists, their managers, audiences, supporters, and record label presidents have all told me this, repeatedly, over the years: The recordings often do not do justice to what they all know should be translated in the recordings of their works.

That is a fundamental conflict in our industry, and I am in a position of viewing this debate through the prism of that conflict. I didn't invent the conflict. It exists. If you're not aware of it, it's either because you don't maintain contact with artists and listen to them with the intention of understanding them, or you simply don't care.

Assuming that I'm attempting to justify my business model is getting the chronology backwards. I designed my business model to meet the solution to the problem. That's just good business, and I'm not taking credit in saying that. Any good business model recognizes an opportunity, and designs it products and/or services to meet that opportunity. That's Business 101. We don't invent a need in our heads, and then try to sell a market on a need which doesn't exist. I might be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Audio, yes, I am indeed "self-taught," but business, I went to school for.

Time to put this thread to sleep? Indeed. Time to put this whole debate to sleep, because there is one side which refuses to respect or listen to the other with the goal of UNDERSTANDING a fundamental problem in our craft, and there is the other side which is willing to learn, yet is facing a wall of denial.

I have too much work to do to, don't have time to sort this all out for all you experts who know everything, so I leave it to you. Happy hunting!

henchman

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2005, 10:34:19 PM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 19:16


Artists tell me this regularly, how they feel the "pro" studios and their engineering staffs do not make any effort to understand what they are trying to do. They don't feel their core essence is even cared about, let alone catered to.


I know those kind of artists. They get some money together, and see which "pro" studio they can afford. And then go in and record. The fact that they haven't even looked for a decent producer or engineer is why they walk away feeling like tey got ripped off.
They walked into studio with soem cash. Were handed over to an inhouse engiener/assistant, and produced thesleves.

Well guess what. pro studio's are rooms for rent. If you want a good product, you need to come in with a producer who knows what the band wants. Instead of the band just expecting magic to happen on the spot.

So tell me this Eric. Do you think that anyone wanting to become a chef would be an idiot to train with people like Thomas Keller or Gordon Ramsey?

Ronny

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2005, 11:01:11 PM »

henchman wrote on Wed, 03 August 2005 22:34



So tell me this Eric. Do you think that anyone wanting to become a chef would be an idiot to train with people like Thomas Keller or Gordon Ramsey?




Only if Justin Wilson wasn't available.  Laughing
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Han S.

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2005, 02:56:08 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 03:16

 Time to put this whole debate to sleep, because there is one side which refuses to respect or listen to the other with the goal of UNDERSTANDING a fundamental problem in our craft, and there is the other side which is willing to learn, yet is facing a wall of denial.



My dear Eric, it looks like there's quite a number of engineers on the one side and you're on your own on the other side.

And I do respect your opinion, though I disagree.

Peace, Han
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t(h)ik

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2005, 05:16:05 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 04:16





And this is precisely what rubs certain people on these forums wrong about some of my postings: They feel they don't have anything to learn in that regard, because they are "traditionally educated" by the recording schools, interning, assisting, et al, and so they stoop to attacking my culinary interests (which have absolutely no business being discussed on this forum unless I bring it up).






I knew a cook once that had no formal training.  I was trying to find the men's room when we crossed paths.  We got to chatting and he told me that people who were formally trained as cooks lose their perspective and aren't in touch with the common consumer of comestibles.  I found it a very interesting point and really enjoyed talking to him.  I would have learned more but he had to keep working as there were five cars waiting at the drive-thru window.

Lemme nough

Tik
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maxim

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2005, 07:10:02 AM »

i've had meals better cooked and presented by "amateurs" than by SOME professionals
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t(h)ik

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2005, 07:17:03 AM »

maxim wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 13:10

i've had meals better cooked and presented by "amateurs" than by SOME professionals

Absolutely, me too...especially by women who do it everyday all day.  But they could never get a job at Che Paul.

So obviously you can turn it around very nicely.

The paralells are apropos and are making me hungry.
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Curve Dominant

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2005, 12:29:05 AM »

sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 12:17

maxim wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 13:10

i've had meals better cooked and presented by "amateurs" than by SOME professionals

Absolutely, me too...especially by women who do it everyday all day.  But they could never get a job at Che Paul.

So obviously you can turn it around very nicely.

The paralells are apropos and are making me hungry.


That makes 6 consecutive posts alluding to food...on a thread about audio, on GM's forum.

Which proves my point: "Traditional" recording studios staffed by "traditionally trained" engineers are going out of business right and left, for very good reasons.

You clowns cannot keep your eye on the ball.

My condolences.

maxim

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2005, 02:20:15 AM »

sixtiksix wrote:

"...especially by women who do it everyday all day. But they could never get a job at Che Paul.

So obviously you can turn it around very nicely."

sure you can

if you were a chef, where exactly would you place the following items on your list of priorities?

1. make a great meal

2. work for some joker named che paul

which makes me want to say something about this debate

if you're obsessed with music, the only thing that is essential is that you make music

everything else is either nice, helpful, distracting, destructing, etcetera, but not essential
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t(h)ik

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2005, 03:41:42 AM »

maxim wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 08:20

sixtiksix wrote:

"...especially by women who do it everyday all day. But they could never get a job at Che Paul.

So obviously you can turn it around very nicely."

sure you can

if you were a chef, where exactly would you place the following items on your list of priorities?

1. make a great meal

2. work for some joker named che paul

which makes me want to say something about this debate

if you're obsessed with music, the only thing that is essential is that you make music

everything else is either nice, helpful, distracting, destructing, etcetera, but not essential




Kick Ass!

I just woke up...that's an awesome post to read to start the day!

Of course you still have to pay your rent.  And that's the difference between a pro and everyone else.

Or not?

Lemme nough

Tik
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maxim

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2005, 09:51:45 AM »

sure

and if eric can hustle some business with his stance, more power to him
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henchman

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2005, 09:59:04 AM »

maxim wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 06:51

sure

and if eric can hustle some business with his stance, more power to him



Make that senetence "and if eric can hustle some paying business that pays his bills full-time with his stance, more power to him"

t(h)ik

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2005, 10:08:12 AM »

Not that I am an engineer, but...

From the bottom of my heart...

More power to Eric in every case...

especially his lecturing finesse  Smile

Tik

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t(h)ik

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2005, 10:24:52 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Fri, 05 August 2005 06:29

sixtiksix wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 12:17

maxim wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 13:10

i've had meals better cooked and presented by "amateurs" than by SOME professionals

Absolutely, me too...especially by women who do it everyday all day.  But they could never get a job at Che Paul.

So obviously you can turn it around very nicely.

The paralells are apropos and are making me hungry.


That makes 6 consecutive posts alluding to food...on a thread about audio, on GM's forum.

Which proves my point: "Traditional" recording studios staffed by "traditionally trained" engineers are going out of business right and left, for very good reasons.

You clowns cannot keep your eye on the ball.

My condolences.



Eric I think your statistics may be suspect.

I can personally vouch that a large number of posts on this thread that contained references to food were not posted by a traditionally trained AE.

But I drink red with fish in every case so consider the source....

Tik
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henchman

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Re: How did you learn audio engineering?
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2005, 12:08:44 PM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Thu, 04 August 2005 21:29

That makes 6 consecutive posts alluding to food...on a thread about audio, on GM's forum.

Which proves my point: "Traditional" recording studios staffed by "traditionally trained" engineers are going out of business right and left, for very good reasons.

You clowns cannot keep your eye on the ball.

My condolences.



You're just avoiding the question. The fact that being a chef is used as an example is because I wanted to use something you are experienced with. It wan't meant in any way as a dig.

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