R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All   Go Down

Author Topic: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?  (Read 19076 times)

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2005, 08:48:06 PM »

brian: "The writer at Manley made mention that sections within a given 6386 don't always match, which I assume would mean the entire bottle would be a "reject". How often have you encountered that?"

Back in the mid 80's when I built a dozen clones using 6386's Richardson was still making them. They truly sucked ass. 2 in 10 made it.  Now NOS GE's rocked. But that was then.
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

Brian Roth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 913
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2005, 01:03:29 AM »

Larry, that sounds like 6(12)BA6 bottles would be an even better deal!  They appear to be dirt cheap since there were bazillions made for radios, TVs, etc.  The trick would be working up a test jig to make matching "easy" without a bunch of effort via a Tek curve tracer (unobtanium!).

Bri

Logged
Brian Roth Technical Services
Oklahoma City, OK
www.BrianRoth.com

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2005, 12:29:15 PM »

Well...
sadly the curves are the most revealing of tests.

The good news is that you can use a modern transistor curve tracer like mine that has 400+ anode volts and a few watts of current dissipation and do small signal tubes like this by merely adding a filament supply, and building a plug-in tube socket jig.

So rather than trying to find the 3 tektronix 570's left in the world..I chose a modern storage unit with an A-B switch. a 577D1

ebay has em'

http://globalnetvillage.com/images/577.jpg
By the way PRR, thats a 12BH7 on the screen. the 'AU7's bigger brother would also make a good vca tube eh?
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

PRR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2005, 04:10:16 PM »

> Are all limiters with a 6386...

It is possible to use the 6386 for other things. Could be an OK mike-amp or line-out tube. BUT there are a bazillion other tubes to do such chores, so in general if you see a 6386 it is doing variable-gain work.

> considered vari-mu?

Pet Peeve: The Mu may vary but that is NOT the key feature of an audio variable-gain tube.

Mu of 6386 drops about 1:3, maybe 1:4, but you can force the gain down over 1:100 and still get useful output.

I do not know of any audio gain-control scheme where shift of Mu (Amplification factor) is the primary effect.

As John says: "You don't have to use a tube with a remote cut-off grid", nor one with a variable Mu. In fact ANY tube "can" be used for electronic audio gain control (a limiter is such a gain-control plus level detector). The basic idea in all of these isn't vari-Mu, but Variable Transconductance (vari-Gm). I don't know why we call them "vari-Mu"; maybe "moo" or "meu" sounds more mystical than "gmm".

Any useful amplifying tube has Transconductance (Gm): change of grid voltage causes change of plate-cathode current. And Gm always reduces when tube current is reduced. In a conventional voltage-amplifier stage, gain is total load impedance times Gm. If Gm is reduced, gain is reduced.

But tube current normally falls faster than Gm. For a limiter, where maximum input wants minimum gain, sooner or later the current will be too small to handle the output level, and distortion gets gross. Using "ordinary" tubes like 12AU7, with a post-amplifier, you can get 15dB-20dB of gain reduction before it all falls apart.

That's where the tapered grid winding that John mentions comes in. This trick allows Gm to fall almost as fast as current. We still eventually run into gross clipping, but in audio use (push-pull plus a post-amp) we can easily top 30dB of gain reduction with 6386 or 6BA6 or a host of others (6ES8 is another good type, though it was one of the last TV-set tubes and can be hard to find).

In any case, the output of a vari-Gm stage in deep gain reduction is low. (The original intent was to drive 100K+ tuned circuits, not wide-band audio loads.) Most vari-Gm limiters follow the vari-Gm stage with an amplifier. Fairchild went a bit nuts: massively parallel 6386 with beefy iron can just-barely make recording studio line levels, and avoid the flavor of a post-amp. I think much of the sound of the Fairchild 660 is the super-simple yet highly-tuned audio path.

And in any case: a lot of the "working sound" of a limiter is the sidechain and the time constants. Fairchild has a massive sidechain and fine time control. Things like the 175 have "good enough" sidechains that will chip transients.

There are other ways to control gain electronically. LDRs are light sensitive resistors. Simple, cheap, no trims, but not precise. You can sharpen them up but then it makes as much sense to go vari-Gm. PWM has been used, but it isn't easy. Instead of using a tube as a gain-stage, you can use it as a cathode follower: reduce current enough, output falls. Since cathode impedance is just 1/Gm, this can be seen as another kind of vari-Gm, but the rate of Gm drop with grid voltage is very different. There is another form using plate resistance, either as passive load or as was done in the GE BA-6.....

> GE "uni-level amplifiers."

The BIG broadcast GE limiters use a 6386 front end, plus a post-amp (twin 6V6 to drive WATTS into long transmitter lines), plus a whacky feedback scheme that only happens at VERY high levels where the 6386 loses control. I think it can be pumped 35dB above nominal level and still not splatt your signal. There is no good reason a broadcaster would drop +35dB into a limiter, but stuff happens. Network feed accidentally gets patched through a mike-amp, etc. A lot of the old broadcast stuff was run with nominal level 30dB or 40dB below clipping to get low THD, like 0.1%. So it is possible to mis-patch too hot, wind up barely clipping at 3% THD but 30dB over nominal level, and then the BA-6 will whomp that down to 0dB and deliver a lightly-flavored loud an dlegal signal instead of splatting clip-garbage all over the radio band.

> I guess like matching 6L6's

6L6 has a bent-enough Gm curve that you could build an effective vari-Gm stage around a pair. You may not be able to get 30dB clean reduction without heroics; anyway two 6L6 is pretty heroic already (idle ~200V ~180mA). But the tubes are readily available on friday night.
Logged

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2005, 12:56:11 AM »

Dude, my very first post on Gearslutz, as a newbie to gear forums,, I used the term "Variable transconductance" and it seemd like about 5 Ravens swooped down and started pecking at my head. Since then, I just use vari-mu so people understand me.

I give up on fighting marketing.

Funny you mentioned the plate resistance effect. One day I accidently had a few k of resistor from the reg'd dc voltage to the 6386's. What should have been a stiff supply was slightly choking and starving the tube on peaks, and giving it a totally different limiting sound. Later,I realized this wasn't coming from grid control and made a note.

I'm curious how the BA-6a differs. I have one and always thought it was remote cutoff based.

I think a fundimental point omitted in all that stuff there, PRR, is that the reason Fairchild used a big power amp, was to get risetime on the control voltage that a 6AL5 couldnt muster.. trying to charge a cap and bias a batch of grids fast enough.  So UREI 175's and Altec 436's  etc. have a transient distortion on attack from the momentary period where the overmodulation soft clips in the tube while it waits to be gain controlled.

But we digress.  Yes JJ if you see 6386's ..it's variable gain or variable transconductance or *shudders* vari-mu. That was really the only part you needed to read.



Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

JGreenslade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2005, 05:42:37 AM »

Last December I attended a historical lecture relating to "fashion in audio", beginning around the dawn of the last century.

I discovered that the first "variable Gm" (aka "Delta
Logged
Audio is a vocational affliction

"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP

John Klett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 475
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2005, 07:52:33 AM »

Larrchild wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 00:56

Dude, my very first post on Gearslutz, as a newbie to gear forums,, I used the term "Variable transconductance" and it seemd like about 5 Ravens swooped down and started pecking at my head. Since then, I just use vari-mu so people understand me.

I give up on fighting marketing.



Actually you are fighting history

The technical term "variable mu" has been in use since the late 1920's and has been applied in technical literature and documentation to a number of techniques for changing gain on a dynamic basis in a tube stage.  This technical term was picked up and used as a marketing tool for one product.  Variable Mu has since been registered as a Trade Mark for a product manufactured by one company which has existed for only a fraction of the last 75+ years since the technical term entered common use in engineering circles...  sort of like trademarking "State Variable" or "Parametric Equalizer".  Now anyone manufacturing a dynamics control device using that gain control technique has to refrain from using a technical term that had been in common use for many many years.  The term can't appear on the device itself or even in the technical specification or literature that describe the device....  pretty cool trick and a testament to the stupidity of the people PTO and/or the skill of the attorney who did the filing...  and great marketing.

Logged
John Klett / Tech Mecca
http://www.technicalaudio.com

JGreenslade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2005, 09:10:26 AM »

In patent law, if prior art can be proved, the patent becomes null and void - would the same rule apply to trademarks? Did the PTO examiner do enough research?

Trademark law also forbids "descriptive" trademarks, i.e. it has to be abstract; you could probably trademark "tastyburger", but "tasty burger" would fall foul of the requirements. Surely "variable mu" is descriptive? Or is it legal because it's abbreviated to "vari-mu", which would mean "variable mu" is fine?

I'm thinking this is a "marketing trademark" - one that would not stand up in court if push came to shove...

Justin
Logged
Audio is a vocational affliction

"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2005, 02:41:02 PM »

Quote:

In patent law, if prior art can be proved, the patent becomes null and void - would the same rule apply to trademarks? Did the PTO examiner do enough research?



There is a "First used in Commerce" precident that applies to it's Trademarkability.

Trademark of vari-mu was abandoned by said company.


vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu vari-mu.


Quote:

In fact ANY tube "can" be used for electronic audio gain control

A 12AX7 gets biased off after a few volts. So tubes that bias off farther out are better candidates. That 12BH7 in my curver tracer shot looks good, actually.
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

JGreenslade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2005, 05:02:54 PM »

Quote:


Typed Drawing


------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
Word Mark VARI MU
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: audio signal processor, namely a compressor/limiter
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78275083
Filing Date July 16, 2003
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) Manley Laboratories Incorporated CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 13880 Magnolia Ave. Chino CALIFORNIA 91710
Attorney of Record Bruce K Jamison
Prior Registrations 2654443
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date June 14, 2004



Smile
Logged
Audio is a vocational affliction

"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2005, 07:03:41 PM »

When I'm building stuff, the cat is pretty fussy about when I have it sounding right. If anything is not quite right, she vanishes. When the circuit is close, she comes back into the lab and meows.

This effect I call "Variable Mew".
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

PRR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2005, 09:32:26 PM »

> I discovered that the first "variable Gm" (aka "Delta
Logged

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2005, 10:54:10 PM »

ED: PRR has forgotten more than we will ever know about tubes and
is a god on a major propellerhead forum where he has some inexpensive and functional variable transconductance circuits out there that others have built with delight.
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

Larrchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3972
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2005, 11:14:15 PM »

maxdimario wrote on Sat, 23 July 2005 09:06

the Fairchild has two sockets wired opposite the other two, so that by inverting the positions of various 6386 tubes you balance the mismatch (all 4 tubes are in parallel).

all variable-mu tube compressors apart budget ones such as the altec use a balancing circuit to get both sides of the tube to work in a similar way.


Absolutely. the sockets in a fairchild were wired so they alternated internal sections of the dual tube so you can get them to balance better by juggling them. But thats just idling current.

How they track across their control and gain range can be way off amongst similar current tubes. I discovered this when minimum thd null didnt agree with the cathode tube balance null.
use a THD meter to balance, if ya can.

Gotta plot the load lines on a screen to know, and then match pairs.

I just had a flash. If you kept adding gain reduction with a tone and checking a-b cathode balance throughout the gain reduction span until you found tubes that matched, that would mimic a curve tracer somewhat.
Logged
Larry Janus
http://2ubes.net

JGreenslade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
Re: are all 6386 limiters vari-mu?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2005, 05:01:31 AM »

PRR wrote on Wed, 10 August 2005 02:32

> I discovered that the first "variable Gm" (aka "Delta
Logged
Audio is a vocational affliction

"there is no "homeopathic" effect in bits and bytes." - HansP
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All   Go Up